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[Ziggy]

People you least expect can suddenly discover they're gay or bi in real life so i don't see why, in theory, pretty much any ME character couldn't too.

However, i don't have enough faith in bioware's writing to think they could pull it off believably. ME2 dialog was pretty unsubtle.

Best case scenario imo would be dlc for old chars and new bi characters in me3.

[SorenTrigg]

I think the main reason we disagree, Johnny, is because of what we think is already defined.

Personally, I just feel that nothing is defined sexually with the characters as of yet.



But, I do see where you are coming from.



How would you feel about characters who had not been open for romance prior? Like, if Zaeed became a romance option in 3.

[SP One Nineteen]

Yeah, writers need to put some more time into what they already have before expanding upon that.

[SorenTrigg]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I suppose they aren't specifically defined.  We don't know the details of Quarian anatomy for example.  So that is not specifically defined.  So you could also say that their sexuality is not specifically defined.  Technically I suppose Kelly could come out in ME3 and say "I only prefer women now" or men for that matter.

It just seems to me,  that it would be perhaps a perception of inconsistency from the player's role playing the story.  Not some grand revelation, but would seem to disrupt the continuity. 

If they made Zaeed a romance option, I suppose it would look the same way as Garrus and Tali as LI's in ME2.  So I don't think that would be a peception of discontinuity necessarily.  

Do you believe that the 2 are one in the same?

Again, though, you are comparing removing things to adding them. I do see a big difference in a character changing how they were acting before in an exclusive matter, to things being added.
Me not seeing their sexuality as defined (until they say so) is, indeed, similar to a non-romancable character opening up as one in my eyes.
They never expressed interest before, but they also never expressed disinterest.

[SorenTrigg]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I suppose I could buy into that, if this wasn't done to every single character.  One or two yes, but every single one?  Sure some people would like that to happen, but what would that look like to you in the story?  

Personally? That would be fine with me, if just one or two characters were open to both sexes. I just want the options to be there.

However, then you get the problem of people wanting the specific character they like open to both sexes and that is where we get people wanting all characters open.
If I had things my way, for example, everyone would be open to romance for both sexes. Including Legion and Zaeed. But again, that is just a dream.
As it stands, just a *couple* of options is enough.

[Siansonea]

I find myself falling somewhere between the two of you on the subject, Soren and Johnny. You both are making good points. This is the type of discussion I like to see in this thread.



I wouldn't want every character to be open to Shepard Love though. Somebody has to shoot him/her down. I think that's one reason I like Samara so much, she is not drinking the Shepard Kool-Aid.

[FataliTensei]

Siansonea II wrote...

I find myself falling somewhere between the two of you on the subject, Soren and Johnny. You both are making good points. This is the type of discussion I like to see in this thread.

I wouldn't want every character to be open to Shepard Love though. Somebody has to shoot him/her down. I think that's one reason I like Samara so much, she is not drinking the Shepard Kool-Aid.

Yeah I wouldn't want every character open to shepard either, it would be quite a bit jarring to me

[Kaorunandrak]

Well Samara wants to drink the shepard kool-aid REAL bad depending on your dialogue choices. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you see dlc for her now or even just see her come for a drink in ME3.



In regards to gay shep, I honestly have no problems with them making npc's bi but from a story stand point how exactly would they make shep gay?



To my knowledge there was no man on man in the first or second game, and technically there was no woman on woman in the first game at least. Liara is an Asaria and neither male or female, she may look female but I don't consider it the same thing. And as far as kelly goes while you can flirt with her as fem shep there is now sex scene for either male or female.



So based on that if they dont put in dlc for both Me1 and ME2 or at least ME2, how would you explain the random "Hey garrus I want excavate your caverns with my drill bit." dialogue that male shep would have open if they included this in ME3?



I've said this before personally I have nothing against it yes i'm straight and married and have a child but I was raised by a lesbian mother my whole life so I am more then comfortable with rainbow flag wavers of the world and would be fine with homosexuality in my video games.



I just don't see story wise how they could include it seemlesly in ME3 without it be firmly established as a possibilty in the previous games for either side male/male or female/female. Again the Asari really in my eyes dont count as a gay encounter for either males or females due to their lack of a true sex themselves.

[Tirigon]

Siansonea II wrote...

Soooo, because of your personal experience with fluid sexuality/bisexual tendencies, this is somehow being offered as proof that sexuality does not have a biological/physiological component? That sexuality develops as a response to environment only? That's an awfully dangerous slope, and there are many religion based gay-reeducation programs that would love you for saying this. After all, if sexuality can change, why not just pray the gay away?

If you're actually referring to a legitimate study you've run across that expresses this idea, I would like to read it.

Well I see your point, and I guess my statement was rather awkward to be misunderstood in such a way.

I guess what I mean is just that I have difficulties to imagine feelings as physical. When you say "physical" I imagine things like a physical addiction to cocaine, Crystal and some other drugs, not an attraction to a certain person (unless, of course, it is so strong that you feel physical pain if you can´t be with said person - however, I never heard of something like that).
I admit, it might be just a misunderstanding about words.

I am not saying sexuality develops depending on environment. Let me be honest: I don´t know about psychological studies on that topic, nor am I interested in some. (Most psychological stuff I know is terrible bullsh!t imo. Humans are far too complex to be reduced on syndromes and specified ways of behaviour.)
But every person is different. Maybe I am special in that way, but I can´t imagine to judge people based on their gender, and that includes being attracted or not being attracted to someone because of his / her gender.
Doing so seems like a rather unnatural limitation of your feelings (no offense meant).



By the way, to prevent acusations of Offtopicness I won´t post about this anymore, but I think it´s an interesting topic. If anyone thinks the same, I´d be happy about PMs

Modifié par Tirigon, 12 mai 2010 - 08:11 .

[Tirigon]

Strikor2115 wrote...

why can't everyone just accept everyone? People shouldn't even care about how other people are, or what they like. We are all people, ya?

This is a very good point, and to transfer it on the game: I think every LI should be open for both genders, BUT the romances should be handled in a way that you will NEVER accidentally romance someone - at best, it should be made so that you don´t even realize a NPC´s sexual orientation unless you romance him / her.

This should also prevent people from getting the feeling the NPC´s character is changed. If you do not pursue a Same-Sex relationship you should get to know this NPC as straight / asexual, and if you do - well, than it´s your fault and you can´t complain about it.
I think this would be a good compromise without a toggle that most posters here are opposed to.

[Tirigon]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

If you add dialog and other changes that need to be added to the
character, in order for that character to engage in s/s romantic dialog
and become a love interest in the game to a specific gender, you change
the character's profile.  There is no way around that.  That is fact. 

I agree with you here. But, to you and to everyone else who is opposed to "retcon": Please explain what´s so bad about that.

I mean, characters are changed  - others say "developed" - all the time in a story.

In DAO, there are about 100000 mods to change the looks of NPCs to your liking.

I think this is actually GOOD, not bad like many here seem to think. After all, we´re talking about a singleplayer RPG. To me, that means everyone should be able to play his / her game the way he / she wants.

I would agree retcon would be bad in a MMO as it would  affect everyone. But a DLC isn´t forced on you. If BioWare would make all LIs bi in a DLC that would allow those who want it - like me - to play their way while others would simply not install this DLC and play as they like. I can´t see any harm in that.

[Fade9wayz]

It seems to me that the people who are die-hard against S/S romances in
the game will object to it, whatever solution we come up with to appease
them. Now, for all the others, including those who aren't pro S/S, but
would 'let it slide' (no pun intended) provided they don't trigger it
accidently, I think that putting the romance option on the left side of
the wheel (in pink maybe, for added clarity), with the added option of a
friendship dialogue on the top right side of the wheel should be enough
and would make everyone (except of course the die-hard contras) happy. I
don't think you can make it any clearer and more player-initiated than
that, and that works for hetero, homosexual or bisexual romances. I
mean, if you don't get that by choosing this (pink) dialogue option
you're starting a romance, you're probably a lost cause, or way too
young to be playing that game.

JohnnyDollar wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...
Personally? That would be fine with me, if just one or two characters were open to both sexes. I just want the options to be there.

However, then you get the problem of people wanting the specific character they like open to both sexes and that is where we get people wanting all characters open.
If I had things my way, for example, everyone would be open to romance for both sexes. Including Legion and Zaeed. But again, that is just a dream.
As it stands, just a *couple* of options is enough.

Well I was asking you to put your writers cap on,  from the current aspect of the story, and looking forward to ME3.  I would think that a DLC making 2 characters BI (pre ME3), and/or new BI characters or homosexual characters (pre ME3), comes off better in the story to me than making everyone BI.  Or just introduce new bi or homosexual characters in ME3, but people want it in ME2 though.

I very much agree with this. I don't want all the squadmates falling in love with Shepard, even though the squadmate I would choose for a S/S romance (aka Miranda) is less likely to have her gender-check removed than, say, Tali or Jack.

[Tirigon]

Fade9wayz wrote...

I very much agree with this. I don't want all the squadmates falling in love with Shepard, even though the squadmate I would choose for a S/S romance (aka Miranda) is less likely to have her gender-check removed than, say, Tali or Jack.

I don´t. I would be quite pissed if they would make Jacob and Miranda bi, for example, since these are my least favourite LIs and I still couldn´t get whom I want.

I want everyone open as LI for everyone, so you have the most freedom to play.

And since someone mentioned Legion as LI: Yes. Legion is the most fascinating character in the game, we NEED him as LI!

[Charsen]

Kaorunandrak wrote...
Again the Asari really in my eyes dont count as a gay encounter for either males or females due to their lack of a true sex themselves.

Ok but seriously. Asari are female. We don't see their naughty bits, but they're clearly female. I think they are even described in the codex as an all-female race, and they refer to their children as daughters and not a gender neutral term like offspring.

They look completely and utterly female and would be attractive (sexually) to anyone who likes females and they are unattractive (sexually) to anyone who is not attracted to females. Therefore... for all intents and purposes... they're female.

If it walks like a duck...

[Tirigon]

Charsen wrote...

Ok but seriously. Asari are female.

No they´re mono-gendered..............

If they were female they would require men to reproduce, but they don´t.

[LiquidGrape]

Tirigon wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Ok but seriously. Asari are female.

No they´re mono-gendered..............

If they were female they would require men to reproduce, but they don´t.

Yes. They are mono-gendered. Meaning, they have only one sex. Female.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 12 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[Tirigon]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Characters do change.  How is it going to look in the story?  If we want to introduce s/s dialog and romance for ME2 through a DLC, then it needs to be done in a responsible fashion in the story to me.  I don't think making all of the LI's bi in a DLC, will come off with much credibility.  People say that characters can change concerning sexuality.  I agree, but all of them?  How credible in the story does that sound to you?

I see your point.

What I dislike is that you and some others seem to automatically assume every retcon would be done in an incredible and stupid manner (correct me if I´m wrong).

I don´t want some stupid, ridiculous justification either.

But the BioWare writer invented a great story for Mass Effect, I think they can come up with a retcon that is not ridiculous but well written.

[ElitePinecone]

Kaorunandrak wrote...

In regards to gay shep, I honestly have no problems with them making npc's bi but from a story stand point how exactly would they make shep gay?

To my knowledge there was no man on man in the first or second game, and technically there was no woman on woman in the first game at least. Liara is an Asaria and neither male or female, she may look female but I don't consider it the same thing. And as far as kelly goes while you can flirt with her as fem shep there is now sex scene for either male or female.

So based on that if they dont put in dlc for both Me1 and ME2 or at least ME2, how would you explain the random "Hey garrus I want excavate your caverns with my drill bit." dialogue that male shep would have open if they included this in ME3?

Shepard has no defined sexuality - or gender, physical appearance, background, morality, etc. For all intents and purposes, people can have a gay or lesbian Shepard - it's just that they don't romance anybody during the game. For that matter, we don't know about Shepard's life before or after the events of Mass Effect. For all we know, Shepard was getting jiggy with all sorts of people in the Citadel before continuing his or her mission.

What I mean by this rambling is that Bioware don't need to 'make' Shepard anything. 

[Tirigon]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Shepard has no defined sexuality - or gender, physical appearance, background, morality, etc. For all intents and purposes, people can have a gay or lesbian Shepard - it's just that they don't romance anybody during the game. For that matter, we don't know about Shepard's life before or after the events of Mass Effect. For all we know, Shepard was getting jiggy with all sorts of people in the Citadel before continuing his or her mission.

What I mean by this rambling is that Bioware don't need to 'make' Shepard anything. 

that´s true, but it´s rather irrelevant. Because that´s like saying "Just don´t play the game and RP a Shepard who is having a normal job in the 21. century".....

[Ziggy]

Tirigon wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
Shepard has no defined sexuality - or gender, physical appearance, background, morality, etc. For all intents and purposes, people can have a gay or lesbian Shepard - it's just that they don't romance anybody during the game. For that matter, we don't know about Shepard's life before or after the events of Mass Effect. For all we know, Shepard was getting jiggy with all sorts of people in the Citadel before continuing his or her mission.
What I mean by this rambling is that Bioware don't need to 'make' Shepard anything. 

that´s true, but it´s rather irrelevant. Because that´s like saying "Just don´t play the game and RP a Shepard who is having a normal job in the 21. century".....

Also, femshep can only be straight or bi unless you never talk to jacob.