7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
The characters are fictional. What they are or aren't depends on the writers, and those who turn their scripts into scenes in the game.

In that way, the writers have decided they are not bisexual.

Thane and Tali were written as bisexual, but the script didn't get to the final product intact.

So, if SuZe was at one point written as someone the polar opposite of her current, finalized character, would you even factor that in? Would you say that Jack is also a mild mannered girl who does not deviate some society? No, you wouldn't.

Characters go through many iterations, such is the process of good writing and design. Anyone who is a writer should know this, they don't always use every idea they come up with. Ultimately, in the end, both of these characters are in at least a practical sense heterosexual. I ASSURE you that both Hale and Meer have recorded lines having nothing to do with romance, that did not make it in the final game. Having options open, like having some of the lines for a Thane romance recorded, can be convenient.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 09:32 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Ulysseslotro wrote...

This is a very devisive political matter. I say lock these threads, and anyone starting new one should get banned.
.

Being uncomfortable discussing and/or disagreeing with a topic being discussed is not grounds to ban threads and/or users. Shutting down the dialogue about the topic breeds animosity on both sides and serves no other purpose than to create drama.

You should read the FAQ and familiarize yourself with the arguments; this is actually not a political matter, but one pertaining to the content of Mass Effect 2 or 3. If you'd like to join the discussion, just share your thoughts and we'll discuss

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 26 février 2010 - 09:33 .

[FlyinElk212]

Ulysseslotro wrote...

This is a very devisive political matter. I say lock these threads, and anyone starting new one should get banned. The forum has been great fun, but now we have hate everywhere because someone didn't get to pork Uranus?

Come on I don't start threads like "It isn't fair that Bioware made reference to gays with 'Probing Uranus' as being the only sexual content EDI makes! Why leave out heterosexual jokes!" <My arguement is frivolous and political disguissed as hate speech. Ban them.

It's not a political matter because it's an issue that occurs within a videogame. Furthermore, this thread isn't about "hating" Bioware's decision to exclude Same Sex Romances. Rather, this thread is a conduit for discussion as to why we believe Bioware should encorporate Same Sex Romances for the next game.

The purpose of this thread is outlined in the beginning post, but it is a little long and hard to read. I don't blame you for skimming.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 26 février 2010 - 09:35 .

[S Seraff]

The Shepard character has several specific predefined characteristics, yes, but there's also a huge amount of play, including, very significantly, gender. If a female shepard can say the same plot lines as the male shepard and save the galaxy just as well, then giving the flirt lines the female shepard uses to the male shepard will in no way destabilize the ME universe. Players are interested in telling THEIR shepards' story, not the cannon one's. This isn't Halo.



That said, I suppose it comes down to zots. Is it worth it to the Bioware team to cater to that portion of its fan base that wants gay romance? I'd like to know how/whether they've done any market research on that .... or are these forums the research?! it's easy i think to accommodate those who would be offended by such content; i think the bigger question is implementation costs.

[Yeled]

Thane and Tali were written as bisexual, but the script didn't get to the final product intact.

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.  Or just into women, since I didn't play manshep.  She just doesn't follow through with a physical relationship with femshep.  I choose to believe she is shy, which seems in character with the way they wrote her.  And maybe femshep is respectful of the terrible risk Tali would put herself in to have a physical relationship.

In any event, I will heretofore refer to Tali as bisexual.

[Endurance_117]

Yeled wrote...

Thane and Tali were written as bisexual, but the script didn't get to the final product intact.

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.

??

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Characters go through many iterations, such is the process of good writing and design. Anyone who is a writer should know this, they don't always use every idea they come up with. Ultimately, in the end, both of these characters are in at least a practical sense heterosexual. I ASSURE you that both Hale and Meer have recorded lines having nothing to do with romance, that did not make it in the final game. Having options open, like having some of the lines for a Thane romance recorded, can be convenient.

I agree that the presence of Hale/Meer recorded same-sex dialog doesn't mean that BW ever planned on having these characters as options.  For ME2, I know that Meer voiced some of Thane's and Hale voiced some from all three ladies (Miranda/Jack/Tali).  

I just don't see what is it about any of these characters that screams 'Hey look, I'm heterosexual!' besides the gender check added to the dialog to prevent a same-sex Shepard from romancing them. 

The only character that discusses their sexuality is Jack, who I believe is clearly bisexual (some will argue this with me, I know).  Thane mentions he was married, but this just means he's attracted to women and says nothing positive or negative about his attraction for men.  Tali's sexual history isn't brought up at all.  Miranda and Jacob supposedly had a thing, but again, this just means they are attracted to the opposite sex and doesn't dismiss the possibility of same-sex attraction.

[Yeled]

Endurance_117 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Thane and Tali were written as bisexual, but the script didn't get to the final product intact.

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.

??

Have you seen the way she relates to femshep?  Flirty, embarrassed, shy...suggests she would want to share suits with her.  I'm not sure how else you can interpret that.

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...
Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.

OR
a) She's confused about her feelings. People have been unsure about their sexualities before, it doesn't mean they are necessarily bisexual or homosexual.
You are reading too much into it.
c) She's just being awkward. Just the way Tali is. Suit linking is not necessarily sexual, unless you think that Tali's mother and Tali's aunt totally got some lesbian sex on. I can totally see someone being awkward if they said something that could be interpreted as being sexual, but actually isn't. Doesn't mean they want to get it on with the person.
d) The developers either too lazy to remove some of the stuff Tali says.

Either way, we have definite, irrefutable evidence she's into guys. Into girls? No, we don't.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Endurance_117 wrote...
??

I'm not 100% sure what Yeled was referring to, but I know I definitely got that vibe from her "I've never linked suits with anyone" convo with Femshep. I actually thought the internet had misinformed me and there was a Tali/Femshep romance hidden away. 

[Endurance_117]

Yeled wrote...

Endurance_117 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Thane and Tali were written as bisexual, but the script didn't get to the final product intact.

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.

??

Have you seen the way she relates to femshep?  Flirty, embarrassed, shy...suggests she would want to share suits with her.  I'm not sure how else you can interpret that.

The opposite of bromance, I would share a suit with my best friend, doesn't make me gay in anyway

[Collider]

Linking suits isn't necessarily sexual or romantic. Like I said, had that been true, then Tali's aunt and Tali's mother were having incest, which is obviously not the case.

[CK85]

I'm supporting this 100%, so Bioware bring it on for ME1 and 2!

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.  Or just into women, since I didn't play manshep.  She just doesn't follow through with a physical relationship with femshep.  I choose to believe she is shy, which seems in character with the way they wrote her.  And maybe femshep is respectful of the terrible risk Tali would put herself in to have a physical relationship.

In any event, I will heretofore refer to Tali as bisexual.

See, I don't think any romance character comes off clearly as anything, if you just look at how they were written before the 'gender check' that only allows the opposite-sex Shepard to continue to talk with them and romance them.  It's kind of funny...if you're a same-sex Shepard and you fail the gender check, these characters completely stop talking to you.

I think Jack is the only one that comes off strongly as anything (bisexual) due to that one story she tells and the way she words things in one of her first conversations with Shepard. 

Like I mentioned, others that have had past relationships seem to at least like the opposite sex (though this can change, of course, so it doesn't mean they still do) and nothing is mentioned about their attraction or non-attraction for the same-sex.  Tali's sexuality is the most ambiguous of all since she has no history.

[Lightice_av]

Linking suits isn't necessarily sexual or romantic. Like I said, had that been true, then Tali's aunt and Tali's mother were having incest, which is obviously not the case.

The "aunt" isn't related to Tali. She's her father's friend, not actual aunt. And while linking suits is not inheritly sexual behaviour, Tali most definately is embarrased and flushed like a person confessing a crush, and FShep can respond with a definately flirty tones.



And as I said, writers wrote her and Thane bisexual all the way. They did not control what became next, otherwise they would have removed traces like these from the script. If they had been in control of the project and didn't want the content to exist, they would have removed it in its entirety. This didn't happen - the content was removed after it left the writers' hands.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Yeled wrote...
Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.

OR
a) She's confused about her feelings. People have been unsure about their sexualities before, it doesn't mean they are necessarily bisexual or homosexual.
You are reading too much into it.
c) She's just being awkward. Just the way Tali is. Suit linking is not necessarily sexual, unless you think that Tali's mother and Tali's aunt totally got some lesbian sex on. I can totally see someone being awkward if they said something that could be interpreted as being sexual, but actually isn't. Doesn't mean they want to get it on with the person.
d) The developers either too lazy to remove some of the stuff Tali says.

True, any of those possibibilities might be true.  But you have to admit that option e) 'Tali is into girls' is also possible.  And in my playthrough I saw no evidence that Tali is into men.  Maybe she is in your playthrough, though.  I don't discount that possibility. 

Modifié par Yeled, 26 février 2010 - 09:53 .

[Collider]

In the case of Jack, seems she may have just been experimenting with her sexuality - not a surprising thing considering her wild nature. In one example, she was with a heterosexual couple. I did hear that Jack rejects femshep on the basis that Jack doesn't want to be part of the "girl's club," which could be you know, lesbians.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

In the case of Jack, seems she may have just been experimenting with her sexuality - not a surprising thing considering her wild nature. In one example, she was with a heterosexual couple. I did hear that Jack rejects femshep on the basis that Jack doesn't want to be part of the "girl's club," which could be you know, lesbians.

Yeesh, this again.  The "girls' club" isn't about lesbians.  Its about being chatty.  The "girls' club," to Jack,  is about gossip, shopping, and giggling.  Jack tells femshep she isn't interested in being all friendly and doesn't really want to talk to her. 

Modifié par Yeled, 26 février 2010 - 09:57 .

[Wittand25]

The npc´s (even the LI) treat Shepard the same regardless of Shepard´s gender, so many of them do seem bisexual. E.g. Jacob´s line on fraternisation or his compliment regarding Shepards physical shape devinatly had me wondering about his orientation. In many cases the only thing that really keeps a npc from beeing bisexual is the gender check and if Bioware would change that (like they changed Juhani´s in Kotor) it would not generate a problem with the npc´s backstory or character.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

In the case of Jack, seems she may have just been experimenting with her sexuality - not a surprising thing considering her wild nature. In one example, she was with a heterosexual couple. I did hear that Jack rejects femshep on the basis that Jack doesn't want to be part of the "girl's club," which could be you know, lesbians.

See, it's not clear what she means by 'girl's club'.  I took it to mean she doesn't want to be the type of 'girlfriends' with Shepard that go to the mall together shopping  and talk about boys at slumber parties.

Also, it's interesting that people refer to Jack's past sexual experiences with women as 'experimenting' and don't take them seriously.  The same can be applied to Miranda with men.  Maybe she just experimented with Jacob and is now experimenting with male Shepard?  Maybe she's really a lesbian deep down?  If you want to believe Jack isn't attracted to women and her history with them was just experimenting, then I have as much right to believe that is the case with Miranda and men.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote..The "aunt" isn't related to Tali. She's her father's friend, not actual aunt. And while linking suits is not inheritly sexual behaviour, Tali most definately is embarrased and flushed like a person confessing a crush, and FShep can respond with a definately flirty tones.

Pfft. People of the same sex can be embarassed with one another without wanting to bone each other. Some people are just shy and awkward, we've plenty of evidence that Tali IS shy and awkward. Unless Female Shepard can say "I feel the same about you," like male Shepard can, it most definitely is not irrefutable flirting. Even then, if Female Shepard can say that, it's obvious since the romance can't progress that Tali rejects her. Like I said, people can also be unsure of their sexuality, may be even be that most people are questioning about their feelings eventually sometime in their life. Even so, it doesn't mean they are bisexual or homosexual. We've definite proof that Tali likes guys, but we don't in the case of girls.

And as I said, writers wrote her and Thane bisexual all the way.

You DON'T know that, you are pulling it out of your ass.

They did not control what became next, otherwise they would have removed traces like these from the script.

RIGHT. Pulling ideas out of your ass again. You don't know why stuff is left on the disk. There is ample content left on the disk for plenty of games, that still were not in the final intended games. Hot Coffee in San Andreas? All that unfinished content in Kotor II? There's even a planet, Sleyheron, that was intended at one point in time for KOTOR. In the end, we don't know why it was left on the disk, could be for modders, or something out of the control of the writers/other developers.

If they had been in control of the project and didn't want the content to exist, they would have removed it in its entirety.

Obvious. You have the option of modding the Grey Warden to be a Darkspawn and have sex with Alistair, doesn't mean it's possible in game without the use of the modding tools. In the end, Bioware could have left the material for modders, or it may have been too late or too inconvenient to get rid of the material.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[Yeled]

jlb524 wrote...

See, it's not clear what she means by 'girl's club'.  I took it to mean she doesn't want to be the type of 'girlfriends' with Shepard that go to the mall together shopping  and talk about boys at slumber parties.

I honestly think its pretty clear.

Also, it's interesting that people refer to Jack's past sexual experiences with women as 'experimenting' and don't take them seriously.  The same can be applied to Miranda with men.  Maybe she just experimented with Jacob and is now experimenting with male Shepard?  Maybe she's really a lesbian deep down?  If you want to believe Jack isn't attracted to women and her history with them was just experimenting, then I have as much right to believe that is the case with Miranda and men.

Well, you know, Jack can't be bi, so she must have been experimenting. 

I like your take on Miranda, though I think Miranda should be attracted to strength (not raw physical power but strength of mind and purpose and determination), which both genders of shep have in abundance.

[jlb524]

Wittand25 wrote...

The npc´s (even the LI) treat Shepard the same regardless of Shepard´s gender, so many of them do seem bisexual. E.g. Jacob´s line on fraternisation or his compliment regarding Shepards physical shape devinatly had me wondering about his orientation. In many cases the only thing that really keeps a npc from beeing bisexual is the gender check and if Bioware would change that (like they changed Juhani´s in Kotor) it would not generate a problem with the npc´s backstory or character.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say.  Shepard's relationship with these characters is the exact same up until the magical gender check where the game allows the dialog to continue with an opposite-sex Shepard and completely shuts it down for a same-sex Shepard.  That's the only thing telling us that the character is 'straight' and not 'bisexual'.  This is weak b/c it's not a story element but a gameplay one.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
See, it's not clear what she means by 'girl's club'.

Very true, it's not clear. Could mean lesbians, may mean something else.

Also, it's interesting that people refer to Jack's past sexual experiences with women as 'experimenting' and don't take them seriously.

I'm not referring to it as that so much as I am declaring the possibility.

The same can be applied to Miranda with men.  Maybe she just experimented with Jacob and is now experimenting with male Shepard?

The difference being that you actually follow through and have sex with Miranda as male shepard.

Maybe she's really a lesbian deep down?

Anyone can hypothesize all the want, but we do know that in a practical sense, Miranda is heterosexual.

If you want to believe Jack isn't attracted to women and her history with them was just experimenting, then I have as much right to believe that is the case with Miranda and men.

I don't believe that Jack is 100% heterosexual, nor do I care to know. Of course you have a right.

[Lord Atlia]

@ Lightice_av I'm not sure what you said is entirely accurate. Tali might have at one time been conceived as bisexual and than the writer thought it didn't fit the character or she could have been conceived heterosexual had some lesbian stuff attempted to see if it fit and than tossed because the writers didn't think so, really we can speculate all we want but at the end of the day we don't know when or why this stuff we was removed. If you start digging through the files of ME2 you find a lot of "trashed" dialogue. I have a feeling that ME2 changed a lot more than we think from concept to final product and probably went through many large changes in between as the developers had to balance coherency of the story with limited time and resources. For whatever reasons a lot of things were cut beyond the homosexual romances.