7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...
Yeesh, this again.  The "girls' club" isn't about lesbians.  Its about being chatty.  The "girls' club," to Jack,  is about gossip, shopping, and giggling.  Jack tells femshep she isn't interested in being all friendly and doesn't really want to talk to her. 

I just posed the possibility - it's strange how you seem to condemn one possible interpretation yet say that it IS for certain another. Hmmmm?

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

People of the same sex can be embarassed with one another without wanting to bone each other. Some people are just shy and awkward, we've plenty of evidence that Tali IS shy and awkward. Unless Female Shepard can say "I feel the same about you," like male Shepard can, it most definitely is not irrefutable flirting. Even then, if Female Shepard can say that, it's obvious since the romance can't progress that Tali rejects her.

Actually, femshep can say she feels the same way and would indeed share suits with her.  As for your take on Tali's subsequent rejection, I don't remember that part of the game.  It must have been in yours and not mine.

You claim we know about her interest in men and know nothing about her interest in girls.  But there's nothing in the game that says she isn't into girls.  I don't think its fair that you can be allowed to assume facts not in evidence when we can't.

Modifié par Yeled, 26 février 2010 - 10:06 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

didymos1120 wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...
I'd be happy to have same-sex romance added to ME2, but there are a number of reasons why I'd rather see it in an expansion instead of DLC.

See, I want it the other way.  So how 'bout we, er, go both ways? 

I see what you did there.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Yeled wrote...
Yeesh, this again.  The "girls' club" isn't about lesbians.  Its about being chatty.  The "girls' club," to Jack,  is about gossip, shopping, and giggling.  Jack tells femshep she isn't interested in being all friendly and doesn't really want to talk to her. 

I just posed the possibility - it's strange how you seem to condemn one possible interpretation yet say that it IS for certain another. Hmmmm?

That's not what I'm doing, actually.  Did you see that scene with femshep or did you just hear about it?  Its pretty clear what she's talking about given the context and the way she says it. 

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...

The npc´s (even the LI) treat Shepard the same regardless of Shepard´s gender, so many of them do seem bisexual. E.g. Jacob´s line on fraternisation or his compliment regarding Shepards physical shape devinatly had me wondering about his orientation. In many cases the only thing that really keeps a npc from beeing bisexual is the gender check and if Bioware would change that (like they changed Juhani´s in Kotor) it would not generate a problem with the npc´s backstory or character.

yea, pretty much. When I talked to Jacob as male shepard, the paragon option said had male Shepard say that Jacob has a nice body, and Jacob responded with something that wasn't exactly affirming of heterosexuality. But sexuality is often not a definite thing, we do know for *certain* practically that Jacob is into women.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...
That's not what I'm doing, actually.  Did you see that scene with femshep or did you just hear about it?  Its pretty clear what she's talking about given the context and the way she says it. 

No I didn't, which is the reason why I emphasized that it was a possibility, and why I never said for certain that it referred to lesbians.

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...
Actually, femshep can say she feels the same way and would indeed share suits with her.

I am referring to the "You have nothing to be embarrassed about Tali, I feel the same way about you."
Not the "I appreciate that Tali, but you don't need to prove anything to me," in regards to trusting Tali enough to share suits. The "appreciate" option is not flirting, as you can turn down Tali immediately after that with a "not interested" as male shepard. So, no, it's not what I was referring to.

.

You claim we know about her interest in men and know nothing about her interest in girls.

Quote me ONE excerpt where I have said this. ONE.

But there's nothing in the game that says she isn't into girls.

I never said that she isn't into girls.

I don't think its fair that you can be allowed to assume facts not in evidence when we can't.

I'm not assuming anything here. If you'd like, you can quote stuff I've said to bring it into context.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Yeled wrote...
That's not what I'm doing, actually.  Did you see that scene with femshep or did you just hear about it?  Its pretty clear what she's talking about given the context and the way she says it. 

No I didn't, which is the reason why I emphasized that it was a possibility, and why I never said for certain that it referred to lesbians.

I tried to find a clip but gave up after a few minutes of futility.  Anyway, I think its pretty hard to take that as a reference to her not being into girls.  Femshep basically says she wants to talk and Jack says she doesn't want to be friendly.  She doesn't want to be part of "girls' club."

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
See, it's not clear what she means by 'girl's club'.

Very true, it's not clear. Could mean lesbians, may mean something else.

And that's the problem with people using that line to prove Jack's heterosexuality.   It can be taken two ways.

However, when the writers have her say lines such as, 'I've been with many people.  If you're asking about a boyfriend or girlfriend then no....that's a waste of time.'    If the writers wanted her character to be clearly heterosexual, they could have written that as:  'I've been with many men.  If you're asking about a boyfriend then no...that's a waste of time.'   

Also, during her 'those people f*cked me over' story, they could have had her just sleep with a man instead of that couple.  What was the point of adding the woman when it adds nothing to that story?

The same can be applied to Miranda with men.  Maybe she just experimented with Jacob and is now experimenting with male Shepard?

The difference being that you actually follow through and have sex with Miranda as male shepard.

So?  She's still experimenting.  Shepard is subject #2.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[diskoh]

It was quite clear that the context of 'girls club' meant Ya-Ya Sisterhood Traveling Pants gossip friends. she explicitly expressed openness to sexual relationships with women earlier in the game.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
And that's the problem with people using that line to prove Jack's heterosexuality.   It can be taken two ways.

Yes, it can. I'm not trying to prove that she is heterosexual, though, I just posed the possibility it could have been meant that way.

However, when the writers have her say lines such as, 'I've been with many people.  If you're asking about a boyfriend or girlfriend then no....that's a waste of time.'    If the writers wanted her character to be clearly heterosexual, they could have written that as:  'I've been with many men.  If you're asking about a boyfriend then no...that's a waste of time.'

Or maybe they could have foreseen people thinking that she may be bisexual, as we are doing right now. In the end, everything that the writers write for their characters doesn't need to have an overarching purpose or something that the audience can see through and understand the entire significance of. The writers know the characters more intimately than we do, we don't need to understand the significance of absolutely everything. The fact that we are talking about this right now is IMO a testament to their ability to write complex characters, and not stereotypes or hollow archetypes.

Also, during her 'those people f*cked me over' story, they could have had her just sleep with a man instead of that couple.  What was the point of adding the woman when it adds nothing to that story?

Lol, you could say that about anything in the story, about anything in the backstories and dialogues about the characters. Getting manipulated by two people at the same time can be more affecting than just one person. It can also serve as an example of Jack experimenting.

So?  She's still experimenting.  Shepard is subject #2.

Could be. The point of what I said is that you can't romance Miranda/Jack as female, but you can as male, which is the distinction.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:19 .

[danman2424]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Correction:  Tali clearly comes across as bisexual in the game.  Or just into women, since I didn't play manshep.  She just doesn't follow through with a physical relationship with femshep.  I choose to believe she is shy, which seems in character with the way they wrote her.  And maybe femshep is respectful of the terrible risk Tali would put herself in to have a physical relationship.

In any event, I will heretofore refer to Tali as bisexual.

See, I don't think any romance character comes off clearly as anything, if you just look at how they were written before the 'gender check' that only allows the opposite-sex Shepard to continue to talk with them and romance them.  It's kind of funny...if you're a same-sex Shepard and you fail the gender check, these characters completely stop talking to you.

I think Jack is the only one that comes off strongly as anything (bisexual) due to that one story she tells and the way she words things in one of her first conversations with Shepard. 

Like I mentioned, others that have had past relationships seem to at least like the opposite sex (though this can change, of course, so it doesn't mean they still do) and nothing is mentioned about their attraction or non-attraction for the same-sex.  Tali's sexuality is the most ambiguous of all since she has no history.

Jack is really the only character that comes off as anything other than heterosexual, and it has nothing to do with anything she specifically says.

[Lord Atlia]

Collider wrote...
Pfft. People of the same sex can be embarassed with one another without wanting to bone each other. Some people are just shy and awkward, we've plenty of evidence that Tali IS shy and awkward. Unless Female Shepard can say "I feel the same about you," like male Shepard can, it most definitely is not irrefutable flirting. Even then, if Female Shepard can say that, it's obvious since the romance can't progress that Tali rejects her. Like I said, people can also be unsure of their sexuality, may be even be that most people are questioning about their feelings eventually sometime in their life. Even so, it doesn't mean they are bisexual or homosexual. We've definite proof that Tali likes guys, but we don't in the case of girls.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here brother.  The thing about Tali being shy and awkward and why I found it so adorable is that in general she is not shy and awkward.  In fact more often than not she is very outspoken and headstrong especially when it comes to the oppression of her people.  She is only shy and awkward around Shepard and only around Shepard in ME2 which I always took as an indirect confession of her feelings.  Why is she shy and awkward around F Shepard? I tend to think its just sloppy editing but you may be right.

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...
 But sexuality is often not a definite thing, we do know for *certain* practically that Jacob is into women.

 And that he could be made to be into both men and woman without changing a single line of his pre-romance dialog (just like all the other LIs). So the fact that he or any other LI is straight and not bisexual is metagame-information and could theoretically be changed without affecting their story or character ( if Bioware decides to do so).

Modifié par Wittand25, 26 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Yeled wrote...
Actually, femshep can say she feels the same way and would indeed share suits with her.

I am referring to the "You have nothing to be embarrassed about Tali, I feel the same way about you."

I believe she can say that, actually.  I can't remember 100 percent, though.  But I'm pretty sure.

You claim we know about her interest in men and know nothing about her interest in girls.

Quote me ONE excerpt where I have said this. ONE.

How about two?

"a) She's confused about her feelings. People have been unsure about their sexualities before, it doesn't mean they are necessarily bisexual or homosexual.
You are reading too much into it.
c) She's just being awkward. Just the way Tali is. Suit linking is not necessarily sexual, unless you think that Tali's mother and Tali's aunt totally got some lesbian sex on. I can totally see someone being awkward if they said something that could be interpreted as being sexual, but actually isn't. Doesn't mean they want to get it on with the person.
d) The developers either too lazy to remove some of the stuff Tali says.

Either way, we have definite, irrefutable evidence she's into guys. Into girls? No, we don't."


and...

"Like I said, people can also be unsure of their sexuality, may be even be that most people are questioning about their feelings eventually sometime in their life. Even so, it doesn't mean they are bisexual or homosexual. We've definite proof that Tali likes guys, but we don't in the case of girls."

But there's nothing in the game that says she isn't into girls.

I never said that she isn't into girls.

Fair enough.

I don't think its fair that you can be allowed to assume facts not in evidence when we can't.

I'm not assuming anything here. If you'd like, you can quote stuff I've said to bring it into context.

My point is that you claim Tali obviously rejects a relationship with femshep when that's not in the game. Meanwhile, you pointed out twice that we know tali is into guys but know nothing about her feelings about girls, presumably because there's not enough evidence in the game.

I was claiming that this line of reasoning requires a double standard. 

At the core, it is true that nothing happens between them physically, but something does happen emotionally.  The fact that there is no subsequent love-making scene isn't evidence of rejection.

[Collider]

Lord Atlia wrote...
In fact more often than not she is very outspoken and headstrong especially when it comes to the oppression of her people.

I very much agree.

Why is she shy and awkward around F Shepard? I tend to think its just sloppy editing but you may be right.

If I had to say, it is sloppy editing. But, I'm just posing the possibility that it can be just awkwardness. Everyone's been awkward around the sex that they are not attracted to.

[Arik7]

danman2424 wrote...
Jack is really the only character that comes off as anything other than heterosexual, and it has nothing to do with anything she specifically says.

People tell me I come off as heterosexual, but it doesn't make me so.  Any of the existing LIs could realitically turn out to be bisexual, if the devs decide to make it so.

Modifié par Arik7, 26 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[danman2424]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

In the case of Jack, seems she may have just been experimenting with her sexuality - not a surprising thing considering her wild nature. In one example, she was with a heterosexual couple. I did hear that Jack rejects femshep on the basis that Jack doesn't want to be part of the "girl's club," which could be you know, lesbians.

See, it's not clear what she means by 'girl's club'.  I took it to mean she doesn't want to be the type of 'girlfriends' with Shepard that go to the mall together shopping  and talk about boys at slumber parties.

Also, it's interesting that people refer to Jack's past sexual experiences with women as 'experimenting' and don't take them seriously.  The same can be applied to Miranda with men.  Maybe she just experimented with Jacob and is now experimenting with male Shepard?  Maybe she's really a lesbian deep down?  If you want to believe Jack isn't attracted to women and her history with them was just experimenting, then I have as much right to believe that is the case with Miranda and men.

"Experimenting" is a bullcrap term many straight women use to describe their lesbian acts without having to tell truthfully that they were degrading themselves for the pleasure of another man. Seriously, no one has to "experiment" to figure out if they are attracted to something.

From Jack's short mention about a threesome in her story, I got the impression that she just did what many other women do these days in regards to similar situations, and go along with what their men ask them to do. She didn't give any impression that she was attracted to the woman during that encounter.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Lord Atlia wrote...
In fact more often than not she is very outspoken and headstrong especially when it comes to the oppression of her people.

I very much agree.

Why is she shy and awkward around F Shepard? I tend to think its just sloppy editing but you may be right.

If I had to say, it is sloppy editing. But, I'm just posing the possibility that it can be just awkwardness. Everyone's been awkward around the sex that they are not attracted to.

Its not sloppy editing.  It might be laziness.  It might be that the writers intended for there to be something there and somewhere along the line cut the ending of the romance arc for some reason we don't know, and never went back and changed the earlier dialogue.

As it stands, though, Tali comes across as having a definite crush on femshep.

[Collider]

I believe she can say that, actually.  I can't remember 100 percent, though.  But I'm pretty sure.

You're going to have to go farther than not 100% sure.

You claim we know about her interest in men and know nothing about her interest in girls.

WRONG! Those quotes you provided
a) a-d are just possibilities.

Either way, we have definite, irrefutable evidence she's into guys. Into girls? No, we don't.

Not having 100% proof that she's into girls is NOT me saying that we know nothing about her interest in girls. I knew you were going to quote this particular excerpt from me. I NEVER said that we know NOTHING about her interest in girls, I said that we don't have IRREFUTABLE evidence that she's into girls. There's a difference.

My point is that you claim Tali obviously rejects a relationship with femshep when that's not in the game.

Uh, no, I said that if female Shepard can express romantic interest in the same way male shepard can, then that means that Tali rejects female shepard.

Meanwhile, you pointed out twice that we know tali is into guys but know nothing about her feelings about girls, presumably because there's not enough evidence in the game.

Wrong! As I said, you are failing to comprehend.

At the core, it is true that nothing happens between them physically, but something does happen emotionally.

Interpretation. I've already said it can be due to sloppy editing or awkwardness on Tali's part.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Collider]

Yeled wrote...
Its not sloppy editing.

You don't know that.

As it stands, though, Tali comes across as having a definite crush on femshep.

That's just your interpretation, I'm afraid. The fact that the romance can't happen isn't exactly lending evidence to your assumption that she has a crush. When you're male Shepard, she says it outright, female shepard - she doesn't.

[Lightice_av]

Pfft. People of the same sex can be embarassed with one another without wanting to bone each other. Some people are just shy and awkward, we've plenty of evidence that Tali IS shy and awkward. Unless Female Shepard can say "I feel the same about you," like male Shepard can, it most definitely is not irrefutable flirting. Even then, if Female Shepard can say that, it's obvious since the romance can't progress that Tali rejects her.

You're again talking as if the characters were real people. They're constructs. Their dialogue is pre-written. That bit of dialogue is a remnant from the script where this exchange would have led to a romance subplot. It is an awkward stem left dangling alone, as it is.

You DON'T know that, you are pulling it out of your ass.

I know, the evidence is there. The data exists on the game disk, pieces of dialogue that were written and voice-acted, but left out for reasons unknown. Judging that they are incomplete, I find the most likely explanation for the omission to be a deadline that had to be met even if it meant leaving out parts of the intended story.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...
 And that he could be made to be into both men and woman without changing a single line of his pre-romance dialog (just like all the other LIs).

This is true of all of the romances, they react the same to Shepard, aside from some minor variances (he/she, him/her, man/woman, ma'am/sir, etc) up until a point, usually where the romance begins.

So the fact that he or any other LI is straight and not bisexual is metagame-information and could theoretically be changed without affecting their story or character ( if Bioware decides to do so).

That is wrong. having DLC that changes the ME2 romances does change their character, because suddenly you can have a romance with them as the other sex.

[danman2424]

Yeled wrote...


Its not sloppy editing.  It might be laziness.

It's either one of those actually.  Female Shepard was not the priority, and thus, paying a voice actor to record more dialogue or repeat a lot of the same stuff "in a less shy tone" was likely not on the top of their list of things to do.

[Collider]

You're again talking as if the characters were real people. They're constructs.

Constructs purposefully written to mirror real people - that is the entire reason why we're so attached to these characters, it is the reason why the characters are so well written - they are not robots or boring archetypes, they are mimicing real, complex people. That is why we can sympathize with our squad mates, they are representing actual people.

Their dialogue is pre-written.

Accordingly, dialogue and writing can be rewritten as well, before the final product. That the process of writing the dialogue, the story, everything - you have concepts that are constantly evolving, concepts that are rewritten, or rejected.

That bit of dialogue is a remnant from the script where this exchange would have led to a romance subplot. It is an awkward stem left dangling alone, as it is.

Could be sloppy or lazy editing, or there was not enough time to remove it.

I know, the evidence is there.

No you don't, you are projecting your own interpretation unto the intentions of the actual developers.

The data exists on the game disk, pieces of dialogue that were written and voice-acted, but left out for reasons unknown.

So now you admit they were left in there for reasons we don't know.

Judging that they are incomplete, I find the most likely explanation for the omission to be a deadline that had to be met even if it meant leaving out parts of the intended story.

That isn't evidence that they were intended but were scrapped due to time restraints. As I said, you are assuming things. There are plenty of examples on ME1 and ME2 things that were left on the disk but not in the final game, that have absolutely nothing to do with the romance. To assume that they were intending to have them in the final game and would have if they had enough time is an assumption.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:40 .