7455 réponses à ce sujet

[sw33ts]

WE ARE GOING OFF TOPIC. THE POINT OF THIS TOPIC IS NOT TO PROVE WHO IS BISEXUAL, but discuss how to implement this.



Kay, so enough of that. Collider what do you have against reimplementing former bisexuals? Unless u have nothing against it, but it seems you do.

[Collider]

I am against DLC that changes the romances to be bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual. Why - because that would be retconning, therefore changing the characters. I don't care an ounce about ME3 relationships, actually hoping that the GLBT people get a male character to romance as male Shepard.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[Ryzaki]

All of you guys are pulling **** out your ass. We aren't the writers, we don't know who is straight, gay, bi and the like. >_<  only thing we know is x character has a relationship with F!Shep or M!Shep. And some of their backgrounds and some of their romance partners.

The only thing we know is that Tali may or may not be attracted to FemShep and if she is doesn't act on this attraction like she does with M!Shep. Anything else you start making assumptions.

Anyways: DLC is what I'm all for. That way people who are scandalized at the idea of retconing can keep their games pure. They want to complain about the DLC? Too bloody bad you're not going to be forced to download and if the idea of someone else's game being different makes you butthurt too bloody bad.

Also all you guys screaming retcon: I hope you slam the thermal clips as well. <_< They least you can do is be consistant.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

That is wrong. having DLC that changes the ME2 romances does change their character, because suddenly you can have a romance with them as the other sex.

We have to disagree on this. For me the sexual orientation is very seldom a part of the character of a npc ( or even a real person). There are exeptions like Zevran in DA:O because his sexuality is a big part in his backstory, but for the npc´s in ME they would not change in my mind just because their sexual orientation is slightly alterd.
But as others have pointed out the advantage of a  romance DLC is that those who dont want any change to the existing characters can simply not download it.

Modifié par Wittand25, 26 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[sw33ts]

Even if it were a DLC you were not forced to buy/download? Why not allow those who want to romance Tali, Kaidan, Jack, Thane buy a DLC and you not worry about it? What's wrong with that?

[Lightice_av]

I am against DLC that changes the romances to be bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual. Why - because that would be retconning, therefore changing the characters.

All DLC is retconning. Zaeed was retconned into the story. Tali's and Garrus' attraction towards Shepard was retconned in between the games. You can't avoid retcon in stories that add in new content. Also, all DLC is optional. You're not forced to download anything you don't like. That being said, I really don't believe in romance-based DLC ever coming about.



I would have preferred to add a few more comments about implementing and cutting content, but as sw33ts says, that's veering off topic. I don't want to be blamed for derailing the thread.

[Collider]

Wittand25 wrote...
We have to disagree on this. For me the sexual orientation is very seldom a part of the character of a npc ( or even a real person). There are exeptions like Zevran in DA:O because his sexuality is a big part in his backstory, but for the npc´s in ME they would not change in my mind just because their sexual orientation is slightly alterd .

Going from homosexual to bisexual and other shifts are not slight alterations.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
All DLC is retconning. Zaeed was retconned into the story.

Zaeed is not reconning to any character whatsoever, so you are missing the point.

Tali's and Garrus' attraction towards Shepard was retconned in between the games.

Ugh, I've heard this too many times. It is NOT retconning, it is an evolution of the character that happens AFTER Mass Effect 1. Tali had a crush and admitted it to M!Shep in ME2. Garrus, I don't know how the romance plays out, but try telling the Garrus fangirls that Garrus' attraction to female Shepard was a retcon. Go do it in the Garrus fan thread and tell me what they think of your idea.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[Lightice_av]

Going from homosexual to bisexual and other shifts are not slight alterations.

Ofcourse they are. A person is not significantly changed just because they find a new orientation, nor a character's role in a non-romance based plot altered by it.

Ugh, I've heard this too many times. It is NOT retconning, it is an evolution of the character that happens AFTER Mass Effect 1.

 
There are no hints whatsoever to any attraction between the characters in ME1. Tali's claim that the attraction was there from the get-go is a retcon. The same goes for Garrus; he didn't even hint at anything but professional admiration in ME1.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 26 février 2010 - 10:59 .

[sw33ts]

Collider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
We have to disagree on this. For me the sexual orientation is very seldom a part of the character of a npc ( or even a real person). There are exeptions like Zevran in DA:O because his sexuality is a big part in his backstory, but for the npc´s in ME they would not change in my mind just because their sexual orientation is slightly alterd .

Going from homosexual to bisexual and other shifts are not slight alterations.

It kinda is due to sexuality being pretty fluid.  But that's going into psychology...and this isn't about psychology. 

Also, aliens and such can't really be bisexual since it's not human romances but more like alien romances.  A male Turian may look just like a female turian...does that mean if I romance a female turian I'm a lesbian?  No cause those terms are only meant for human relationships.  Once you start a relationship with an alien you kinda lose those labels especially when you start moving away from the humanoid aliens.

[Collider]

Also, aliens and such can't really be bisexual since it's not human romances but more like alien romances.

???
There is dimorphism in the other alien races. There are male and female Salarians, Turians, Drell, Quarians, Krogans. By virtue of that alone, aliens can be bisexual.

A male Turian may look just like a female turian

Doesn't matter.

...does that mean if I romance a female turian I'm a lesbian?

No, it means you are either attracted to females or you are attracted to that particular turian or female turians in particular.

No cause those terms are only meant for human relationships.

The alien races were intentionally made to be similar to humans. In reality, aliens would be incredibly different from us, and probably wholly unattractive. Probably not even humanoid, maybe they would have no two genders, maybe no dimorphism, maybe 6 genders, what ave you.

Once you start a relationship with an alien you kinda lose those labels especially when you start moving away from the humanoid aliens.

No. The aliens are clearly more humanoid than they actually would be in reality, on purpose. There are genders, Garrus has masculine traits, Liara has feminine traits.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[SirGladiator]

Its all a matter of interpretation. Obviously as a FemShep player we know that Tali is VERY interested in FemShep. Should MaleShep players be allowed to ignore that, and pretend that Tali is only interested in their MaleShep? Of course, because its actually true, in a way, because when playing as MaleShep Tali is indeed only interested in MaleShep, there's nothing to threaten that or say otherwise in any way. The same way, when playing as FemShep, Tali is only interested in FemShep, nothing indicates she's interested in anyone else, male or female. Thats because the bottom line is Tali loves Shepard, she wants to be with Shepard, and the gender is irrelevant, as it should be. The only bad part is that we as FemShep players don't get to do the end of the romance like the MaleShep players do, and I agree there really should be something to fix that, its just not right. Whether its DLC or whatever, because not everybody plays the PC version and can resort to mods to fix it, everybody deserves to get to play all of the Tali romance, male or female, and clearly Tali would want it that way .

[DaeJi]

A DLC would only change the story for those who want it. It's mere existence doesn't alter the story of anyone who is against it.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
There are no hints whatsoever to any attraction between the characters in ME1. Tali's claim that the attraction was there from the get-go is a retcon.

You need to try thinking outside of the box. First of all, understand what retconning is. Retconning is going back to something already existing and editing it. There is no DLC that changed Tali and Garrus into romance options in ME1. The fact that YOU didn't see any attraction has no bearing whatsoever.
Second of all, like I said, use your brain. Most crushes probably are never revealed to the objects of said crushes. The girl who has a crush on the popular guy is not unlikely to be afraid to say anything because she thinks he would reject her.

The same goes for Garrus; he didn't even hint at anything but professional admiration in ME1.

Garrus isn't humping female shepard's leg when you first recruit him. Like I said, it's an evolution of the character, a lot of relationships start with platonic friendships.

[War Houndoom]

I support this thread, being a young gay male myself, and I found it to be Enlightening and I think it makes a great point to the developers.

[Collider]

SirGladiator wrote...
Obviously as a FemShep player we know that Tali is VERY interested in FemShep.

No we don't know. I've already given reasons why Tali may seem flustered with FemShep. She could be awkward or shy. In the end, the fact that there is no romance possible is an indication that, hmm, maybe Tali isn't bisexual? Everyone has been awkward around the same sex or sex that they aren't attracted to. And Linking suits isn't neccesarily sexual, unless that Quarian Tali calls "Auntie Raen" had lesbian sex0rz with Tali's mom.

[Ryzaki]

Ryzaki wrote...

All of you guys are pulling **** out your ass. We aren't the writers, we don't know who is straight, gay, bi and the like. >_<  only thing we know is x character has a relationship with F!Shep or M!Shep. And some of their backgrounds and some of their romance partners.

The only thing we know is that Tali may or may not be attracted to FemShep and if she is doesn't act on this attraction like she does with M!Shep. Anything else you start making assumptions.

Anyways: DLC is what I'm all for. That way people who are scandalized at the idea of retconing can keep their games pure. They want to complain about the DLC? Too bloody bad you're not going to be forced to download and if the idea of someone else's game being different makes you butthurt too bloody bad.

Also all you guys screaming retcon: I hope you slam the thermal clips as well. <_< They least you can do is be consistant.

Good grief guys. Going in circles.

[sw33ts]

The only alien races we've seen with both sexes is Quarians. How do you know there's dimorphism between ALL of them? And I remember seeing female Turian somewhere and she looked just like a Male Turian.



You can't honestly call yourself bisexual if the two different sexes look exactly the same with minor differences. Lol, if the female turian looks like a male...then it would still be considered a heterosexual relationship if i romanced her since she has "masculine traits" as you said so yourself. Garrus has masculine traits so therefore a female turian who looks like garrus also has masculine traits and therefore she looks like a MALE and being heterosexual means you are attracted to MALES. Which in human terms would be the opposite GENDER. Notice I said GENDER and not SEX.



But yeah when you romance someone/something of another species u kinda lose those labels.

[Lightice_av]

You need to try thinking outside of the box. First of all, understand what retconning is. Retconning is going back to something already existing and editing it.

False. Retcon does not have to edit an existing work. Retcon alters continuity retroactively (yes, this is a tautology). It was not in the continuity that turians even could find humans attractive. This possibility was only added later.

Like I said, it's an evolution of the character, a lot of relationships start with platonic friendships.

The line between character-development and retcon is often slim. The difference is that character development is foreshadowed. Development actually happens - it's not just stated "oh yeah, this character developed when you weren't watching".

[DaeJi]

Lightice_av wrote...
False. Retcon does not have to edit an existing work. Retcon alters continuity retroactively (yes, this is a tautology). It was not in the continuity that turians even could find humans attractive. This possibility was only added later.
 

Good point. I would also add that since the story of Mass Effect 2 is not yet finished (and will not be until an expansion or Mass Effect 3 comes out), any changes to the story will not be a retcon. Now, changing Kaidan in Mass Effect with a DLC would be a retcon.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Lightice_av wrote...
The line between character-development and retcon is often slim. The difference is that character development is foreshadowed. Development actually happens - it's not just stated "oh yeah, this character developed when you weren't watching".

I missed a lot of this conversation, so forgive me if I'm way off base or restating what's already been said, but isn't this exactly what happened to Tali (and Garrus, to some extent)? In ME2, she suddenly is in love with you, despite no indications in the first game. Granted, she explains the lack of signs as shyness but, given your definition, wouldn't that put her development as a character as "when we weren't watching?"

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
False. Retcon does not have to edit an existing work. Retcon alters continuity retroactively (yes, this is a tautology). It was not in the continuity that turians even could find humans attractive. This possibility was only added later.

Let me explain. If it was said that Shepard was born in 2153 in ME1, but in ME2, it was said that he was born in 2155, that is a retcon. That is what I am referring to in reference to editing an existing work. It is an example of retconning.

About whether turians could even find human attractive. If in ME1 the ridiculous event of saying that for Turians it's impossible to be attracted to humans happened, but in ME2 Garrus is attracted to femshep, that would be retconning.

Tali and Garrus were not retconned. Tali was shy and did not admit her feelings. Garrus was either not interested at the time or simply did not reveal feelings. As I said, both Tali and Garrus do not come into ME2 humping Shepard, you need to do their loyalty missions for example and for Tali - you must not reveal her father's experiments.

The line between character-development and retcon is often slim. The difference is that character development is foreshadowed. Development actually happens - it's not just stated "oh yeah, this character developed when you weren't watching".

We don't know everything about the characters. As I said, Tali and Garrus were not retconned. I challenge you to go into the Garrus fanthread and tell them that Garrus' attraction to female shepard was a retcon.

[Lightice_av]

I missed a lot of this conversation, so forgive me if I'm way off base or restating what's already been said, but isn't this exactly what happened to Tali (and Garrus, to some extent)?

Exactly. This is just what I was saying.

Tali and Garrus were not retconned. Tali was shy and did not admit
her feelings. Garrus was either not interested at the time or simply
did not reveal feelings.

 
The writers did not consider these two viable romantic interests, and only wrote them that way after tons of demands from fanboys and girls. They admitted as much in the interviews. This makes them a retcon.

I challenge you to go into the Garrus fanthread and tell them that Garrus' attraction to female shepard was a retcon.

 
Why? I don't enjoy antagonizing people for no reason. You might not understand, but never mind.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 26 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[Lord Atlia]

See if a character were patched to have a homosexual romance I wouldn't mind. Adding details to a character post launch isn't really retconning but adding more detail to a character, in an age of DLC the world fleshes out overtime thus any changes to a game that take place during the game (like adding Zaeed or the Hammerhead) could be considered retconning the world. However if all characters were patched to remove gender flags, which is what is constantly being suggested, I feel that the world as a whole would lose a bit of immersion as the PC has direct influence over a characters personality. It would be like modding DA:O so that all characters always approve regardless of the actions taken.

[Collider]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
In ME2, she suddenly is in love with you, despite no indications in the first game.

First of all, love is never mentioned in the romance. Secondly, there is no Tali romance coming into ME2. Like the other romances, Tali acts in exact the same way to male and female shepard up until a point, where usually the romance occurs. In the end, you need to do her loyalty mission and do it correctly, in order for the romance to happen. If you don't no romance happens.