7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

Collider wrote...

You need to try thinking outside of the box. First of all, understand what retconning is. Retconning is going back to something already existing and editing it. There is no DLC that changed Tali and Garrus into romance options in ME1. The fact that YOU didn't see any attraction has no bearing whatsoever.

 The same logic can be applied to a DLC that unlocks a m/m or f/f romance, the fact that YOU did not see the intrest of the LI ( and so did not try to start a romance) before installing the DLC and  is in no way different from  not relasing that Tali had a crush on him in ME1.

[PyroFreak301]

Collider wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
Obviously as a FemShep player we know that Tali is VERY interested in FemShep.

No we don't know. I've already given reasons why Tali may seem flustered with FemShep. She could be awkward or shy. In the end, the fact that there is no romance possible is an indication that, hmm, maybe Tali isn't bisexual? Everyone has been awkward around the same sex or sex that they aren't attracted to. And Linking suits isn't neccesarily sexual, unless that Quarian Tali calls "Auntie Raen" had lesbian sex0rz with Tali's mom.

You're right. We can't know why the Tali romance didn't go further than it did.

Nor can you reduce it to some vague awkward scenario that is romance when MShep, yet completely straight vague unexplained awkwardness with FShep. The mention of linking suits is quite clearly explained as a romantic process where great trust is required (or required when nursing). I'm not saying that trust automatically equates to romance, but the act of linking suits seems a pretty redundant practice between just friends, so it's not a massive jump to assume Tali was thinking about the romantic aspect... otherwise why even bring it up?

[staldore13]

im all for it
as long as no one magicly changes the already established characters' sexuality

garrus was always my best friend in games and he always had my back if he suddenly started flirting with me i would be seriously creeped out and i would cease being friends with him

its not prejudice i just wouldnt want a gay person as a really close friend id be uncomfortable

and tali was my love interest if it turned out she went both ways id be not only pissed but it might ruin the effect tali had on me in that she was the only one with any genuine affection for my character

Garrus,thane, tali, jack thier all straight

live with it

bring in new characters that can be gay i wouldnt mind that

Modifié par staldore13, 26 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[Collider]

sw33ts wrote...
The only alien races we've seen with both sexes is Quarians.

We already know there are female and male genders in other races aside from Quarians. You can know this by simply playing the game or by reading the codex.

How do you know there's dimorphism between ALL of them?

I never said there is dimorphism between ALL of them.

And I remember seeing female Turian somewhere and she looked just like a Male Turian.

Probably fanart. It still doesn't matter anyway.

You can't honestly call yourself bisexual if the two different sexes look exactly the same with minor differences.

EXTREMELY wrong. Bisexuality is pretty simple. Bisexuality is the attraction to both the male and female genders, it has NOTHING to do with whether YOU consider the differences between genders as slight or unnoticeable.

Lol, if the female turian looks like a male...then it would still be considered a heterosexual relationship if i romanced her since she has "masculine traits" as you said so yourself.
Garrus has masculine traits so therefore a female turian who looks like garrus also has masculine traits and therefore she looks like a MALE and being heterosexual means you are attracted to MALES. Which in human terms would be the opposite GENDER. Notice I said GENDER and not SEX.

I've ALREADY explained this. By the fact that there are two genders in these races, these aliens can be bisexual. It's not hard to grasp. An alien could look at humans and say the exact thing as you are saying.

But yeah when you romance someone/something of another species u kinda lose those labels.

Wrong. These races still have male and female genders. I'm not going to be attracted to Garrus just because he's an alien, it's clear that he is male.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 11:24 .

[DaeJi]

I want to repeat that Mass Effect 2's story is not yet done; if it were we wouldn't be getting DLC for it. Until a proper expansion or Mass Effect 3 comes out the to continue the story, there is room to adjust the story in Mass Effect 2 as need be.

[Wittand25]

Lord Atlia wrote...

See if a character were patched to have a homosexual romance I wouldn't mind. Adding details to a character post launch isn't really retconning but adding more detail to a character, in an age of DLC the world fleshes out overtime thus any changes to a game that take place during the game (like adding Zaeed or the Hammerhead) could be considered retconning the world. However if all characters were patched to remove gender flags, which is what is constantly being suggested, I feel that the world as a whole would lose a bit of immersion as the PC has direct influence over a characters personality. It would be like modding DA:O so that all characters always approve regardless of the actions taken.

I dont think many would want all of them to be made bisexual and most would be satisfied if just one per gender is made available. We argue that it would be possible for all of them so that we dont waste time quarreling if we would prefare Thane, Jacob or Garrus ( the same is true to the females ).

[Collider]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Collider wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
Obviously as a FemShep player we know that Tali is VERY interested in FemShep.

No we don't know. I've already given reasons why Tali may seem flustered with FemShep. She could be awkward or shy. In the end, the fact that there is no romance possible is an indication that, hmm, maybe Tali isn't bisexual? Everyone has been awkward around the same sex or sex that they aren't attracted to. And Linking suits isn't neccesarily sexual, unless that Quarian Tali calls "Auntie Raen" had lesbian sex0rz with Tali's mom.

You're right. We can't know why the Tali romance didn't go further than it did.

Nor can you reduce it to some vague awkward scenario

I am not reducing it. I am telling a possibility.

that is romance when MShep, yet completely straight vague unexplained awkwardness with FShep.

You can say the exact same thing to two different people and it can mean something different. In addition, all romances are this way - the characters respond to male and female shepard the same up until a point where the romance happens.

The mention of linking suits is quite clearly explained as a romantic process

Uh, no. I've already said that it is not necessarily romantic. Unless you think that that one quarian was romantically involved with Tali's mother, which would be adultery.

I'm not saying that trust automatically equates to romance, but the act of linking suits seems a pretty redundant practice between just friends, so it's not a massive jump to assume Tali was thinking about the romantic aspect... otherwise why even bring it up?

It was brought up because the player tells Tali that living in a suit all the time seems to be difficult or inconvenient, or strange. The suit linking is brought up by Shael'Raen, yet not in a romantic context. Seems to me that Tali was being flustered over Shepard assuming that suit linking is always romantic or sexual. Tali even says "it's not always like that"

[K3E5N]

Noooo Same Sex Romances it's plain and simple DISGUSTING

stop with these stupid threads !

[K3E5N]

Noooo Same Sex Romances it's plain and simple DISGUSTING

stop with these stupid threads !

[sw33ts]

Collider wrote...

sw33ts wrote...
The only alien races we've seen with both sexes is Quarians.

We already know there are female and male genders in other races aside from Quarians. You can know this by simply playing the game or by reading the codex.

How do you know there's dimorphism between ALL of them?

I never said there is dimorphism between ALL of them.

And I remember seeing female Turian somewhere and she looked just like a Male Turian.

Probably fanart. It still doesn't matter anyway.

You can't honestly call yourself bisexual if the two different sexes look exactly the same with minor differences.

EXTREMELY wrong. Bisexuality is pretty simple. Bisexuality is the attraction to both the male and female genders, it has NOTHING to do with whether YOU consider the differences between genders as slight or unnoticeable.

Lol, if the female turian looks like a male...then it would still be considered a heterosexual relationship if i romanced her since she has "masculine traits" as you said so yourself.
Garrus has masculine traits so therefore a female turian who looks like garrus also has masculine traits and therefore she looks like a MALE and being heterosexual means you are attracted to MALES. Which in human terms would be the opposite GENDER. Notice I said GENDER and not SEX.

I've ALREADY explained this. By the fact that there are two genders in these races, these aliens can be bisexual. It's not hard to grasp. An alien could look at humans and say the exact thing as you are saying.

But yeah when you romance someone/something of another species u kinda lose those labels.

Wrong. These races still have male and female genders. I'm not going to be attracted to Garrus just because he's an alien, it's clear that he is male.

I don't think you realize what gender is.  Gender is how you portray yourself as and how people read that as.  If I walk up to a FTM and I'm like wow you're a cute dude and I proceed to date said dude.   It would most likely be considered a heterosexual relationship because he walks around and acts like a male even though he was born a woman. 

That said if there's no dismorphism between some of them and they end up looking like each other and they end up looking like the human equivilant of a male.  Then if I entered a relationships with a woman Turian it would be considered a heterosexual relationship by human terms....do you understand now?  All races do not have male female genders...they maybe have different sexes but they don't have to have more than one gender.

[sw33ts]

Double post.

Modifié par sw33ts, 26 février 2010 - 11:31 .

[Lightice_av]

Uh, no. I've already said that it is not necessarily romantic.

Not necessarily, no. But the context used is very much romantic. Outside a romantic context the quote makes little to no sense. That's why I consider it sloppy editing; a remnant of a romantic subplot that was partially recorded (more parts remain in the audiofiles), but never finished.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
Not necessarily, no. But the context used is very much romantic. Outside a romantic context the quote makes little to no sense. That's why I consider it sloppy editing; a remnant of a romantic subplot that was partially recorded (more parts remain in the audiofiles), but never finished.

The problem is that you have assumed many things about the fact that it is still on the disk, when in reality you are just assuming things and putting intentions into people - developers- you have never met. The fact that x content was intended or considered at one point does not mean it would be in the final game given enough time to do it. Take Hot Coffee in San Andreas for example.

[Collider]

sw33ts wrote...
I don't think you realize what gender is.

I KNOW what gender is. Gender is society's impositions on what constitutes as masculine and feminine behavior and appearance. Gender is not necessarily objective, biological sex is at least virtually objective. But there IS, by your own very admission, two genders and biological sexes within these alien races. By virtue of that, aliens can be bisexual. It's not hard to understand. Let me draw up the definition of bisexual.

• (botany) A flower having both male and female parts. See perfect.
• (psychology) Sexually attracted to persons (but not only humans) of either sex.
• (rare) Hermaphroditic.

These aliens have two sexes. Argument over.

[Ryzaki]

Oh god. Once again. All of you guys are making assumptions. You're not the writers. So technically speaking none of you guys are right. Even my gay Kaidan theories are incorrect. Unless of course you're arguing that Tali doesn't have a sexual relationship with FemShep in which case you'd be correct. Or you know actual game CANON.

There's the possibility for anything its called development. Unless of course Tali suddenly is a giant robot from ME1.

That's just a retcon.

And the whole aliens thing: I don't think the whole gay, lesbian, bi would even been an issue if they weren't so humanoid.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[Lightice_av]

The problem is that you have assumed many things about the fact that it is still on the disk, when in reality you are just assuming things and putting intentions into people - developers- you have never met.

I am using deductive reasoning based on the available data. The content exists on the disk. This is a known variable. Not all data is on the disk; this implies that only parts were recorded and/or edited. A piece of dialogue that seems very much like a part of the cut dialogue remains in the game proper - in fact it's the very point in the game that for MShep would mean the start of the romantic subplot. This implies shoddy editing, which in turn implies haste. This in turn indicates that the cut was made quite late in development. Hence, I deduce the possibility that time-constraints were the reason for the cut. I don't claim this as an absolute truth, but a probable deduction.

[sw33ts]

Lol. I never said they didn't have two sexes. I said that if you romance a society of male looking aliens even if they have two sexes. I'm still going to be in a heterosexual relationship regardless of who I romance...



Lolol. Yes please explain to me, proud bisexual what a bisexual is. Asaris have ONE gender. Yes? So who's to say there's not another race out there like that...like say Turians...who all look like one gender, MALES.



But oh well we're going off topic.

[PyroFreak301]

I am not reducing it. I am telling a possibility.

You're using your possibility to dismiss any claims that Tali could or might be bisexual.

You can say the exact same thing to two different people and it can mean something different. In addition, all romances are this way - the characters respond to male and female shepard the same up until a point where the romance happens.

You can say the same words to 2 different people and have the meanings differ, sure. When you say the same thing and the tone and responses are exactly the same, it's pretty safe to assume that the meaning is the same. It may be bad editing with Tali to allow the conversation to get that far, but either way there would be no reason for her to fluster in exactly the same way if she wasn't thinking about romance with FShep, it still made it into the game either way.

Uh, no. I've already said that it is not necessarily romantic. Unless you think that that one quarian was romantically involved with Tali's mother, which would be adultery.

You seemed to skip past my mention of nursing? The only 2 purposes of suit sharing (that I can recall) are for romance and nursing. Nursing didn't have any mention or relevance in the conversation where Tali gets all flustered at telling FShep she would trust her enough to share the suit, so it's a pretty safe call to assume they were talking about romance. If you disagree, that's fair enough, but theres more than enough said in conversation between FShep and Tali to seamlessly integrate a romance between the 2 without fans feeling like a character has been changed, especially if they've played as FShep and heard the conversation for themselves.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 26 février 2010 - 11:50 .

[Collider]

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...
I am using deductive reasoning based on the available data.[/quote]
You say you are use reason and logic. But you aren't using them completely correctly. The distinction, the fallacies of your argument involve the fact that you are assuming and claim to know things that you neither truly do nor could know simply from the fact that the content exists in the CD. So don't try to invoke logic unless you really know what logic entails in this context. Logic is not assuming, assumptions are the antithesis of logic.

The content exists on the disk. This is a known variable. Not all data is on the disk; this implies that only parts were recorded and/or edited.[/quote]
Which by itself does not indicate that the developers would, if time allowed, have the content in the final game - accessable by the player without modifications. Another possibility by the fact that the content is fragmented is that the developers or whomever decided to scrap it - which is not necessarily indicative of time restraints. As a writer myself, I don't always leave what flows from my fingers in the final product. I scrap things or change them so much they are unrelatable to the original concept. I could write a chapter and almost finish it, but before finish it decide to scrap it. Does that mean I didn't have enough time to finish it? No.

[quote]This implies shoddy editing,[/quote]
The fact that content still remains on the disk is not proving of time restraints. Even if there were time restraints in regards to this issue, there are more possibilities than just "would be in the game if they had enough time." There's also "it was too late in the production to remove it from the disk," or "there was a lack of communication in regards to removing the content." The content remaining on the disk can also mean "we are open to fans using modifications that enable this content, but we did not want it in the final version that players can access with modifications."

[quote]which in turn implies haste.[/quote]
Slippery slope fallacy.

[quote]This in turn indicates that the cut was made quite late in development. Hence, I deduce the possibility that time-constraints were the reason for the cut.[/quote]
Assumptions, assumptions.
[quote]I don't claim this as an absolute truth, but a probable deduction. [/quote]
You were claiming it as truth, I'm afraid. I'm glad that at least know you realize and admit that you are neither sure nor necessarily true by any stretch.

[Collider]

PyroFreak301 wrote...
You're using your possibility to dismiss any claims that Tali could or might be bisexual.

Nope! All this time I have been giving possible alternatives to Tali's behavior that are not indicative of bisexuality. I have NEVER ONCE said that Tali isn't or can't be bisexual. I have also shot down the arguments of others who say that certain content proves that Tali is bisexual.

You can say the same words to 2 different people and have the meanings differ, sure. When you say the same thing and the tone and responses are exactly the same, it's pretty safe to assume that the meaning is the same.

It is an assumption. But you have to put into the context that this is a game, and not real life, as well. Like I said, the game is structured so characters act exactly the same to male and female shepard up until a point where the romance occurs.

It may be bad editing with Tali to allow the conversation to get that far, but either way there would be no reason for her to fluster in exactly the same way if she wasn't thinking about romance with FShep, it still made it into the game either way.

Very wrong. You are assuming things. I've already given several other possibilities, but you are fixated upon interpreting it in a romantic way. Your loss.

You seemed to skip past my mention of nursing? The only 2 purposes of suit sharing (that I can recall) are for romance and nursing. Nursing didn't have any mention or relevance in the conversation where Tali gets all flustered at telling FShep she would trust her enough to share the suit,

Doesn't matter. you don't need to tell people your exact thoughts. I've already given the possibility that Tali gets flustered because she was embarassed because she thought that linking suits would be interpreted as something romantic or sexual. Tali even corrects herself by saying that linking suits isn't always about romantic intimacy. If someone misconstrued my statements as being flirts or sexual come ons, I would be embarassed as well.

so it's a pretty safe call to assume they were talking about romance.

No it isn't.

If you disagree, that's fair enough, but theres more than enough said in conversation between FShep and Tali to seamlessly integrate a romance between the 2 without fans feeling like a character has been changed, especially if they've played as FShep and heard the conversation for themselves.

As is the same for any other character. You can easily slap on a romance and have it appear seamless. Jacob is an example, male shepard is even able to say that Jacob has a nice body.

Modifié par Collider, 26 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[Lightice_av]

The distinction, the fallacies of your argument involve the fact that you are assuming and claim to know things that you neither truly do nor could know simply from the fact that the content exists in the CD. So don't try to invoke logic unless you really know what logic entails in this context. Logic is not assuming, assumptions are the antithesis of logic.

I used the words "deductive reasoning". Pure, mathematical logic is only a part of it. Deductions require assumptions based on the data and knowledge of trends and human behaviour, with a touch of intuition added. The possibility of false assumption always exists - the method is not as infallible as Sherlock Holmes advertised, but in a situation where only limited data is available, it's better than nothing.

The fact that content still remains on the disk is not proving of time restraints.

Read again. The implication of time constraints comes from a small part of the dialogue still remaining in the finished game. This implies that there was no time to remove it and replace it with something more appropriate.

I'm glad that at least know you realize and admit that you are neither sure nor necessarily true by any stretch.

I always know that anything that I know or deduce might not be in fact true. It's still better than throwing my hands up and deciding that I can't even make a hypothesis. You are eager to shoot my deduction down even though you have no more information than I do. The best you can prove is that neither of us can state the absolute truth behind the matter, only determine what we can from what we have. Something that applies to quite a few things in life.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 27 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[Your Synthetic Superior]

Bioware doesn't seem to keen on offering multiple dialog progressions. If you consider the heterosexual conclusions, they all lead toward romances. Rather you want the dialog to go that route or not there is only one road and it leads to romance related dialog.

I honestly don’t expect them to go out of the way to make alternate homosexual romance subplot dialogs when they won’t even make platonic dialog progression for the heterosexuals. Look what they do with female players. They’re forced to be bi-sexual. I sure don't want to have my male heterosexual Shepard hitting on Jacob or Kaiden. It is bad enough how they do females who don’t want to be bi-sexual to appease adolescent boys with girl-on-girl fetishes.

[PyroFreak301]

Basically it's all just speculation and opinion. There are plenty of ways to read into that conversation between FShep and Tali, a lot see it as romantic, others don't, neither side can be proven right or wrong without making assumptions or excuses. Makes it feel pretty pointless arguing it in the first place.

As is the same for any other character. You can easily slap on a romance and have it appear seamless. Jacob is an example, male shepard is even able to say that Jacob has a nice body.

Surely seamless is all that is required. If it's seamless, no character gets retconned, they merely get expanded upon, I can't see how thats a bad thing, especially when you consider it will be completely optional.

Another things that strikes me as odd with the whole discussion is that for a single playthrough, it doesn't matter if a character is bisexual or not, it might as well be a completely different universe as far as interaction and interests between MShep and FShep are concerned. If Tali is straight on an MShep playthrough, why would the Tali of a FShep playthrough make any difference to that whatsoever? You play the game again through a different viewpoint, you get to see different sides to characters... this is a good thing. (EDIT: At the moment we only get to see the same part of a character, only to have it abruptly stopped if you're not playing the right gender.)

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 27 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
I used the words "deductive reasoning". Pure, mathematical logic is only a part of it.

...
The assumptions you are imposing upon the remaining content has nothing to do, nor is evidenced or proven, with pure mathematical logic. There is absolutely nothing mathematical about the ways you have been employing your assumptions. As it stands, you have been using assumptions to falsey evidence assumptions, with plenty of subjectivity.

The possibility of false assumption always exists - the method is not as infallible as Sherlock Holmes advertised, but in a situation where only limited data is available, it's better than nothing.

Here's the problem, Lightice. I have absolutely no problem using logic to draw up possible explanations for the content remaining on the disk. I have a problem masquerading your assumptions as logic and saying that they are 100% true, as you have done in the past. I am glad you have retreated away from this.

Read again. The implication of time constraints comes from a small part of the dialogue still remaining in the finished game. This implies that there was no time to remove it and replace it with something more appropriate.

No it does not imply. You would need to assume that the developers wanted to remove it from the disk in the first place, and we have no indications of this. I've already said that Bioware may leave content on the disk so modders can reactivate it.

I always know that anything that I know or deduce might not be in fact true. It's still better than throwing my hands up and deciding that I can't even make a hypothesis. You are eager to shoot my deduction down even though you have no more information than I do. The best you can prove is that neither of us can state the absolute truth behind the matter, only determine what we can from what we have. Something that applies to quite a few things in life.

All that I am doing here is rebuking your arguments. If you want to cease discussing this, you are at full liberty to stop responding to me. Note that I don't think any lesser of you as a person because I disagree with your arguments, nor would I want you to think lesser of me a person for arguing against you.

[Collider]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Basically it's all just speculation and opinion. There are plenty of ways to read into that conversation between FShep and Tali, a lot see it as romantic, others don't, neither side can be proven right or wrong without making assumptions or excuses. Makes it feel pretty pointless arguing it in the first place.

Thank you for admitting this.

Surely seamless is all that is required. If it's seamless, no character gets retconned,

Seamless DLC that allows a character to be romanced by the same sex is NOT the characters NOT getting retconned. It is retconning. The fact that it could be done in a subtle way has no bearing on whether it is retconning.

Another things that strikes me as odd with the whole discussion is that for a single playthrough, it doesn't matter if a character is bisexual or not,

A lot of this discussion has revolved around my opinion that the sexualities/romances of the characters should not be altered as that would be retconning, which I have a negative opinion on. By retconning I mean changing existing content - as an example, saying in ME2 that Shepard was born in one year when in ME1 it said he was born in another.

Modifié par Collider, 27 février 2010 - 12:14 .