7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

So Collider: are you against the new ammo system then? You seem to have a pretty fierce hatred of rectconning.And DLC is OPTIONAL retconning. I doubt BioWare will include it in a patch or have it be mandatory. So what's your problem then? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 février 2010 - 12:15 .

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
Seamless DLC that allows a character to be romanced by the same sex is NOT the characters NOT getting retconned. It is retconning. The fact that it could be done in a subtle way has no bearing on whether it is retconning.

Until Mass Effect 3 or an expansion comes out, Mass Effect 2's story is still ongoing. The fact that DLC exists for it shows that. No alterations to the story would be a retcon since the story is not finished.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
So Collider: are you against the new ammo system then? You seem to have a pretty fierce hatred of rectconning.

The ammo system is explained as new technology that has been adopted by a majority of people who use firearms. There is a continuity error on Jacob's mission, unless the stranded survivors somehow got the new technology, which is, you know, unlikely.

[danman2424]

PyroFreak301 wrote...


You can say the same words to 2 different people and have the meanings differ, sure. When you say the same thing and the tone and responses are exactly the same, it's pretty safe to assume that the meaning is the same. It may be bad editing with Tali to allow the conversation to get that far, but either way there would be no reason for her to fluster in exactly the same way if she wasn't thinking about romance with FShep, it still made it into the game either way.

I already gave a perfectly valid explanation for why paying a voice actor to re-record dialogue "but this time act a little less shy when you say it" was probably not on the top of their priority list.

Aside from that, being the male love interest, she is likely to come across that way to females or people playing female Shepards. A lot of people strongly disliked Kaidan due to the longing stares and overall "gay" vibe he put off on people playing male Shepards. Unbeknownst to the them, Kaidan was not gay, but he was meant to be the love interest for female Shepards, and thus, his demeanor comes off as someone that is looking at Shepard as a potential partner. It was strange for male characters to speak to him, but to female characters he was acting perfectly fine. Same thing for female Shepards and characters like Tali.

[danman2424]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
Seamless DLC that allows a character to be romanced by the same sex is NOT the characters NOT getting retconned. It is retconning. The fact that it could be done in a subtle way has no bearing on whether it is retconning.

Until Mass Effect 3 or an expansion comes out, Mass Effect 2's story is still ongoing. The fact that DLC exists for it shows that. No alterations to the story would be a retcon since the story is not finished.

It would be nice if the story continues, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking. The DLC we know about, like hammerhead and Kasumi, are not continuations of the story, just extra side missions that can be played at any part of the game's main story.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
So Collider: are you against the new ammo system then? You seem to have a pretty fierce hatred of rectconning.

The ammo system is explained as new technology that has been adopted by a majority of people who use firearms. There is a continuity error on Jacob's mission, unless the stranded survivors somehow got the new technology, which is, you know, unlikely.

Its a retcon. The fact that Shep knows about it when he's been out for 2 years makes it so. He speaks as though using them are normal. He didn't use them in the last game. So why would he be completely used to the system? Why would he even KNOW about the system.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 février 2010 - 12:22 .

[Jimmy Fury]

While I agree that retconning is the source of all evil, it's technically only a retcon if something has been specifically undeniably established.
If, for example, a DLC mission pack were released in which Thane had a conversation with M.Shep that established that he had now developed feelings for shep, it's not a retcon. Thane has never stated that he couldn't possibly have feelings for anyone so any new romantic developments wouldn't change anything that has been established.

No, his wife does not actually matter. I don't care if he's had 36 wives and 900 children. He has never specifically stated that he couldn't have feelings for m.Shep, so any new content that includes such a conversation would not be a retcon. It doesn't change any of his history nor does it change any previous conversations.

Adding things isn't retconning. Taking the past 20 years of spiderman's history and throwing them out the window because you want Pete and MJ to break up, that's retconning.

Yes I'm still bitter about that 2 year later. Now back to fighting with my stupid homework.

[DaeJi]

danman2424 wrote...
]It would be nice if the story continues, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking. The DLC we know about, like hammerhead and Kasumi, are not continuations of the story, just extra side missions that can be played at any part of the game's main story.

That's what I'm saying; Mass Effect 2's story is not complete, therefore they cannot retcon it or characters in it since it is still evolving. For instance, Kasumi will be a new character in the game, completely altering the flow of the story. How would making Tali open to femSheps or Jacob open to male Shepards be any different than adding a completely new character to the game? Either way, the story is altered.

[Lightice_av]

The assumptions you are imposing upon the remaining content has nothing to do, nor is evidenced or proven, with pure mathematical logic. There is absolutely nothing mathematical about the ways you have been employing your assumptions. As it stands, you have been using assumptions to falsey evidence assumptions, with plenty of subjectivity.

Pure, mathematical logic has nothing to do with truth. It's perfectly possible to make a fully logical statement that ends up in a conclusion that Moon is made out of cheese. Mathematics are part of all language, and play a part in deductive reasoning, but as I said, it's a small one.

I have a problem masquerading your assumptions as logic and saying that they are 100% true, as you have done in the past. I am glad you have retreated away from this.

I never claim 100% truths about anything. I only say what I find is likely and what makes sense. I never claim certainity about even the most mundane things. When I make arguments, I naturally argue for them with all my ability, but if conflicting data comes to my knowledge, I have no problem in revising or even completely abandoning my argument. Perhaps the fact that I'm always passionate about debates leads to the assumption that I consider myself always correct, but that assumption is most definately false. My hypothesis remains good and solid possible explanation for the matter at hand, but if you can come up with information that doesn't match with it, or build your own hypothesis based on the same data, be my guest.

Note that I don't think any lesser of you as a person because I disagree with your arguments, nor would I want you to think lesser of me a person for arguing against you.

The reason why I've been so adamant to continue debating against you has been that you have been so eager to attack my hypothesis with no more information than I have. I assumed in turn that you were absolutely certain that I was most certainly in the wrong with no backing to that claim whatsoever. If you thought that I proclaimed my deduction as an absolute fact, I can understand why you were so quick to attack it, in turn. I'm glad we got that misunderstanding out of the way.

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Its a retcon.

A retcon is retroactive. The ammo clips are a new technology that is invented and implemented during the two years that Shepard is out.

The fact that Shep knows about it when he's been out for 2 years makes it so. He speaks as though using them are normal. He didn't use them in the last game. So why would he be completely used to the system?

No, actually Miranda introduces the ammo clips to him when he wakes up in the Cerberus research facility.

[Ryzaki]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

While I agree that retconning is the source of all evil, it's technically only a retcon if something has been specifically undeniably established.
If, for example, a DLC mission pack were released in which Thane had a conversation with M.Shep that established that he had now developed feelings for shep, it's not a retcon. Thane has never stated that he couldn't possibly have feelings for anyone so any new romantic developments wouldn't change anything that has been established.

No, his wife does not actually matter. I don't care if he's had 36 wives and 900 children. He has never specifically stated that he couldn't have feelings for m.Shep, so any new content that includes such a conversation would not be a retcon. It doesn't change any of his history nor does it change any previous conversations.

Adding things isn't retconning. Taking the past 20 years of spiderman's history and throwing them out the window because you want Pete and MJ to break up, that's retconning.

Yes I'm still bitter about that 2 year later. Now back to fighting with my stupid homework.

^Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about Retconning. And bloody "thermal clips" are a bloody retcon. *rage*

[Lightice_av]

A retcon is retroactive. The ammo clips are a new technology that is invented and implemented during the two years that Shepard is out.

But no guns with the old (and superior) technology exist anywhere in the game world, even in a colony that is supposed to be isolated. It's a retcon that desparately tries to pretend it's not.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Its a retcon.

A retcon is retroactive. The ammo clips are a new technology that is invented and implemented during the two years that Shepard is out.

The fact that Shep knows about it when he's been out for 2 years makes it so. He speaks as though using them are normal. He didn't use them in the last game. So why would he be completely used to the system?

No, actually Miranda introduces the ammo clips to him when he wakes up in the Cerberus research facility.

Uh No. Vid: 

Shep says: "This pistol doesn't have a thermal clip". go to 8: 36

Uh...how does he even know about themal clips? 

RETCON!

Not to mention the isolated colonists using them. Were the hell did they get them from? 

But it made the game more enjoyable so most didn't have a problem with it. I feel the same way about S/S romance DLC.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[PyroFreak301]

Collider wrote...
A lot of this discussion has revolved around my opinion that the sexualities/romances of the characters should not be altered as that would be retconning, which I have a negative opinion on. By retconning I mean changing existing content - as an example, saying in ME2 that Shepard was born in one year when in ME1 it said he was born in another.

The thing I don't fully understand is how it would be retconning if a character hadn't clearly stated their sexual orientation in the first place. Going back to Tali, she never explicitly said she wasn't into females, the conversation just seems to stop when playing as FShep with no closure. Nothing would have to be changed or contradicted in order to add a FShep/Tali romance according to canon.

I never played a Jack romance, so I'm probably completely wrong here, but didn't she clearly say she wasn't interested in females? This is where I can understand your concerns of retconning if they were to tack in a F/F romance option, and I'd be the first to admit your concern is valid. On the other hand, she had admitted to engaging in lesbian activity in the past, so maybe she could be, for lack of a better word, persuaded... but that would be left up to Biowares writing capability as to whether it felt contradictory or not.

All I'm saying is that just because it wasn't in the shipped game, doesn't mean it can't fit into a character without changing the said character. If it's been clearly stated otherwise in game, then you do have a point as far as retconning is concerned.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
Pure, mathematical logic has nothing to do with truth.

It's perfectly possible to make a fully logical statement that ends up in a conclusion that Moon is made out of cheese.

No it isn't.
a) All celestial bodies that are not planets are made of cheese.
The moon is a celestial body that is not a planet.
c) The moon is made out of cheese

Is not a logical statement due to the fact that a) is neither true or nor properly evidenced.

I never claim 100% truths about anything.

You've already made assumptions about the content remaining on the disk without saying that they are possibilities. In individual posts. That is probably the reason I started arguing with you in the first place.

The reason why I've been so adamant to continue debating against you has been that you have been so eager to attack my hypothesis with no more information than I have.

The reason why I am arguing with you is that
a) First of all, your assumptions about the remaining content that you never coupled with "but that's just my opinion," or "that's just a possibility, I'm not sure. You've already retreated away from this, and the primary reason I am even responding to you is
You are responding to me.

I'm glad we got that misunderstanding out of the way.

good.

[jlb524]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

Look what they do with female players. They’re forced to be bi-sexual. I sure don't want to have my male heterosexual Shepard hitting on Jacob or Kaiden. It is bad enough how they do females who don’t want to be bi-sexual to appease adolescent boys with girl-on-girl fetishes.

Female Shepards aren't forced to be bisexual.  Have you played ME2 as a FemShep?  There are no f/f romance options.  If anything, ME2 forces FemShep to be straight (the Jacob romance is literally thrown at you).

[sw33ts]

Kay kay can someone please explain to me why this would be such a bad "retcon." Aren't they just retconning the retcon...seeing how Tali has Same-Sex dialogue...O_o

Why yes I would agree that RetConning something like I don't know Shepard and Anderson are best buds and then in ME3 BW decides they don't like this and change it. This would be wrong because it would change the story completely since he backs you up continuously...but same-sex retconning is bad because it adds to the story?

Lots of books turned movies/TV shows were retconned and sometimes for the better.

Modifié par sw33ts, 27 février 2010 - 12:31 .

[Collider]

Ryzaki wrote...
Shep says: "This pistol doesn't have a thermal clip". go to 8: 36

Hmm, well I remembered incorrectly then. Still doesn't matter. Doesn't seem to be a retcon to me. And most importantly, it has no bearing whatsoever in the discussion about changing character's romances through DLC or patching.

Uh...how does even know about themal clips?
RETCON!

The technology already existed within the Geth ranks. The thermal clips that are used now are just derivative of what the Geth already used.

[danman2424]

DaeJi wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
]It would be nice if the story continues, but I think that is extremely wishful thinking. The DLC we know about, like hammerhead and Kasumi, are not continuations of the story, just extra side missions that can be played at any part of the game's main story.

That's what I'm saying; Mass Effect 2's story is not complete, therefore they cannot retcon it or characters in it since it is still evolving. For instance, Kasumi will be a new character in the game, completely altering the flow of the story. How would making Tali open to femSheps or Jacob open to male Shepards be any different than adding a completely new character to the game? Either way, the story is altered.

It doesn't really change anything in the story. Just extra missions to do. Much like Pinnacle Station and BDTS in the first game.

[Collider]

sw33ts wrote...

Kay kay can someone please explain to me why this would be such a bad "retcon." Aren't they just retconning the retcon...seeing how Tali has Same-Sex dialogue...O_o

The romance dialogue that was recorded is not in the final game. Tali doesn't have irrefutable same-sex dialogue.

[DaeJi]

sw33ts wrote...

Kay kay can someone please explain to me why this would be such a bad "retcon." Aren't they just retconning the retcon...seeing how Tali has Same-Sex dialogue...O_o

Why yes I would agree that RetConning something like I don't know Shepard and Anderson are best buds and then in ME3 BW decides they don't like this and change it. This would be wrong because it would change the story completely since he backs you up continuously...but same-sex retconning is bad because it adds to the story?

Lots of books turned movies/TV shows were retconned and sometimes for the better.

Retcons only apply when a story is finished. The story in Mass Effect 2 is still ongoing, so they can't actually retcon it.

[sw33ts]

Collider wrote...

sw33ts wrote...

Kay kay can someone please explain to me why this would be such a bad "retcon." Aren't they just retconning the retcon...seeing how Tali has Same-Sex dialogue...O_o

The romance dialogue that was recorded is not in the final game. Tali doesn't have irrefutable same-sex dialogue.

You never explained why it would be a bad RetCon.  Do you just not want it to happen for the sake of RetConning?

[DaeJi]

danman2424 wrote...
It doesn't really change anything in the story. Just extra missions to do. Much like Pinnacle Station and BDTS in the first game.

Okay, let's go along on this train of thought. How would patching in same sex romances with the love interests be any different? It's just extra dialog and such.

[Lightice_av]

Is not a logical statement due to the fact that a) is neither true or nor properly evidenced.

"Evidence" and "logic" don't belong in the same sentence. You can make a logical statement about anything as long as you can imagine that it is true. Remember that some of the biggest historical proponents of logic scoffed the use of evidence, or didn't know how evidence works.

You've already made assumptions about the content remaining on the disk without saying that they are possibilities.

I thought it was obvious. I'm talking about information that we all have, after all. If I claim something as a fact, I say so. Anything that comes afterwards are just deductions based on the facts available that may or may not be true depending on whether the unknown variables match them or not.

Yeah, I still keep responding to you. Mainly because I thought that I was being more clear than I apparently was, and prefer to get the misunderstandings out of the way.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 27 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[sw33ts]

DaeJi wrote...

sw33ts wrote...

Kay kay can someone please explain to me why this would be such a bad "retcon." Aren't they just retconning the retcon...seeing how Tali has Same-Sex dialogue...O_o

Why yes I would agree that RetConning something like I don't know Shepard and Anderson are best buds and then in ME3 BW decides they don't like this and change it. This would be wrong because it would change the story completely since he backs you up continuously...but same-sex retconning is bad because it adds to the story?

Lots of books turned movies/TV shows were retconned and sometimes for the better.

Retcons only apply when a story is finished. The story in Mass Effect 2 is still ongoing, so they can't actually retcon it.

IC.  I'm not famliar with this term.  Lol.  Yay urbanditionary.  It seems it agrees with you.