7455 réponses à ce sujet

[sw33ts]

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

 Shepard is exactly as predefined as the gray warden or the spiritmonk were and both could be gay if the player decided so. There is not a single piece of information in the game, the books, the comics or any other place I know of that prevents Shepard from beeing gay so saying that there is a storyreason for this is simply wrong.

There's nothing barring Sam Fisher from being gay either but that does not mean that Ubisoft will break character and allow you to make that choice in Splinter Cell Conviction.  It's their decision not to move in that direction and I thought that, above all things, our society should respect the freedom of choice, be it on the part of the individual or the private organization.

O_o

Splinter Cell is very linear...and you can't enter relationships....at all.  You can't choose if you're an old man or woman or young.  You will always be Sam Fisher, old man with awesome voice.  You cannot compare Mass Effect to Splinter Cell.

[Arik7]

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

 Shepard is exactly as predefined as the gray warden or the spiritmonk were and both could be gay if the player decided so. There is not a single piece of information in the game, the books, the comics or any other place I know of that prevents Shepard from beeing gay so saying that there is a storyreason for this is simply wrong.

There's nothing barring Sam Fisher from being gay either but that does not mean that Ubisoft will break character and allow you to make that choice in Splinter Cell Conviction.  It's their decision not to move in that direction and I thought that, above all things, our society should respect the freedom of choice, be it on the part of the individual or the private organization.

Sam Fisher is a fixed character, Shepard is a customizable character.  Big difference.

It's BioWare's choice.  Some of us respect that choice, others not so much.   I hope they make better choices next time.

Modifié par Arik7, 27 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[Wittand25]

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

 Shepard is exactly as predefined as the gray warden or the spiritmonk were and both could be gay if the player decided so. There is not a single piece of information in the game, the books, the comics or any other place I know of that prevents Shepard from beeing gay so saying that there is a storyreason for this is simply wrong.

There's nothing barring Sam Fisher from being gay either but that does not mean that Ubisoft will break character and allow you to make that choice in Splinter Cell Conviction.  It's their decision not to move in that direction and I thought that, above all things, our society should respect the ability of the individual (or the private organization) to be able to freely choose how they express themselves.

The difference is you are playing Sam Fisher a predefined character. In ME you play insertname Shepard who does not even have a sex until you decide male or female. You do relaise the difference ?

Modifié par Wittand25, 27 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[Allison W]

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

 Shepard is exactly as predefined as the gray warden or the spiritmonk were and both could be gay if the player decided so. There is not a single piece of information in the game, the books, the comics or any other place I know of that prevents Shepard from beeing gay so saying that there is a storyreason for this is simply wrong.

There's nothing barring Sam Fisher from being gay either but that does not mean that Ubisoft will break character and allow you to make that choice in Splinter Cell Conviction.  It's their decision not to move in that direction and I thought that, above all things, our society should respect the freedom of choice, be it on the part of the individual or the private organization.

This would ordinarily hold water, except for some reason they went and added same-sex romances, then took them out. And this happened in both games. And now they're doing some goofy dance around how "Oh, Shepard is just a 'predefined character'" (which is BS) and how ME1 didn't really have a lesbian relationship (also BS; there's no getting around the fact that it was pretty gay for femShep, even if it wasn't for Liara)!"

So something really fishy is going on here, and it stinks of all kinds of unpleasantness.

[Sabul]

So I keep trying to bring myself to post and argue with someone. The trouble is I have argued against all these arguments before countless times. Figures the thread finally gets posted when I am not online though. Lame. Still hopefully someone will soon post something that makes me RAEG enough to get back into the debate. As always I am in full support of my gay Shepard.

[didymos1120]

Bad news, rationalizers: parthenogenesis is defined as occuring exclusively in all-female species.  Don't like it?  Take it up with biology.  Maybe lecture those deviant New Mexican Whiptail lizards:

Parthenogenesis has been studied extensively in the New Mexico whiptail (genus Cnemidophorus), of which 15 species reproduce exclusively by parthenogenesis. These lizards live in the dry and sometimes harsh climate of the southwestern United States and northern Mexico. All these asexual species appear to have arisen through the hybridization of two or three of the sexual species in the genus leading to polyploid individuals. The mechanism by which the mixing of chromosomes from two or three species can lead to parthenogenetic reproduction is unknown. Because multiple hybridization events can occur, individual parthenogenetic whiptail species can consist of multiple independent asexual lineages. Within lineages, thereis very little genetic diversity, but different lineages may have quite different genotypes.

An interesting aspect to reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still seen, although the populations are all female. One female plays the role played by the male in closely related species, and mounts the female that is about to lay eggs. This behaviour is due to the hormonal cycles of the females, which cause them to behave like males shortly after laying eggs, when levels of progesterone are high, and to take the female role in mating before laying eggs, when estrogen dominates. Lizards who act out the courtship ritual have greater fecundity than those kept in isolation, due to the increase in hormones that accompanies the mounting. So, although the populations lack males, they still require sexual behavioral stimuli for maximum reproductive success.

That sounds rather familiar, actually...

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[danman2424]

MPSai wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Maybe even that is just too "effeminate" to cope with.

Yeah, REAL MEN don't bother with woman pleasin'. 

danman2424 wrote...

Technically the Asari cannot be all female, otherwise they would not be able to mate with each other.

Um, they reproduce through parthenogenesis, not through genitalia. It's even explained, they use their mind meld to take part of the genetic signature of a partner and then whip up an offspring based on that (probably so offspring aren't just clones.) So no, it is entirely possible for Asari to be all female since they don't reproduce through sexual intercourse.

The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

[MPSai]

Well some sharks in captivity have magically managed parthenogenesis, but yes it occurs primarily in all-female species.

[Allison W]

danman2424 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Maybe even that is just too "effeminate" to cope with.

Yeah, REAL MEN don't bother with woman pleasin'. 

danman2424 wrote...

Technically the Asari cannot be all female, otherwise they would not be able to mate with each other.

Um, they reproduce through parthenogenesis, not through genitalia. It's even explained, they use their mind meld to take part of the genetic signature of a partner and then whip up an offspring based on that (probably so offspring aren't just clones.) So no, it is entirely possible for Asari to be all female since they don't reproduce through sexual intercourse.

The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

As Didymos said, a species with only one sex isn't "sexless"; it's entirely female. And I'm pretty sure that Asari have a birth canal, if nothing else.

Also, can you explain why femShep would be attracted to the (very feminine and strongly resembling a human female) Liara if she weren't attracted to women?

[MPSai]

danman2424 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Maybe even that is just too "effeminate" to cope with.

Yeah, REAL MEN don't bother with woman pleasin'. 

danman2424 wrote...

Technically the Asari cannot be all female, otherwise they would not be able to mate with each other.

Um, they reproduce through parthenogenesis, not through genitalia. It's even explained, they use their mind meld to take part of the genetic signature of a partner and then whip up an offspring based on that (probably so offspring aren't just clones.) So no, it is entirely possible for Asari to be all female since they don't reproduce through sexual intercourse.

The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

You could rationalize that by saying they still need somewhere to push the baby out, they have breasts and they use the term "Goddess". Why the hell would a non-sexed race use gender defined terms? Well, it could be just shaky writing of course, but nevertheless its there. 

I was just pointing out your claim that they can't be a single sexed race because they wouldn't be able to reproduce with other Asari is incorrect.

Modifié par MPSai, 27 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[Sabul]

danman2424 wrote...
The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

I am just going to jump in here. While the Asari do not view themselves as male of female they have acknowledge other species see them as female. What with all their female characteristics. It may not be a lesbian relationship to Liara or any other Asari but to a human female the attraction to someone based on their female attributes is lesbian in nature. They male well have female sexual organs as well if their breasts are any indicators.

Modifié par Sabul, 27 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[Arik7]

didymos1120 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
Misprint in the codex?  What?  Both the ME1 codex and ME2 codex explicitly state that the Asari is an all-Female race.  There's no ambiguity about it.   Hudson simply could not admit they were backtracking on lesbian romances.
 

Guess what: that entry is from the Primary Codex...which means it's voiced.

It must have been misvoiced as well then.   TWICE.   In both games.

[Space Shot]

[quote]Wittand25 wrote...

[/quote]
The difference is you are playing Sam Fischer a predefined character. In ME you play insertname Shepard who does not even have a gender until you decide male or female. You do relaise the difference ?[/quote]

Do you?  In Mass Effect you only have 3 back stories and two character types (genders) which is a marginal improvement on customization as compared to most any other game but it still constitutes a predefinition of character, regardless of the few token options that are provided to you as well.

[cutthecameras]

danman2424 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Maybe even that is just too "effeminate" to cope with.

Yeah, REAL MEN don't bother with woman pleasin'. 

danman2424 wrote...

Technically the Asari cannot be all female, otherwise they would not be able to mate with each other.

Um, they reproduce through parthenogenesis, not through genitalia. It's even explained, they use their mind meld to take part of the genetic signature of a partner and then whip up an offspring based on that (probably so offspring aren't just clones.) So no, it is entirely possible for Asari to be all female since they don't reproduce through sexual intercourse.

The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

I am not a woman because men exist and I am not like them. I am female because I just am.

Asari look like women, they have breasts, they sound like women, and female pronouns are used to refer to them. If they presented androgynously and used he or she to refer to themselves at random then they would not be an all-female race. A woman attracted to an Asari has little stopping her from falling in love with a human woman. Even Morinth's victim showed this conflict as a seperate one from her being of another species. "Am I crazy? Morinth is a girl like me, and she's not human, but still there's something about her..." 

[Arik7]

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...


The difference is you are playing Sam Fischer a predefined character. In ME you play insertname Shepard who does not even have a gender until you decide male or female. You do relaise the difference ?

Do you?  In Mass Effect you only have 3 back stories and two character types (genders) which is a marginal improvement on customization as compared to most any other game but it still constitutes a predefinition of character, regardless of the few token options that are provided to you as well.

I'll just repost didymos1120's quote here.  Why mess with the good thing?

didymos1120 wrote...

Ah yes,  "predefined"...

I'll repost this from another thread:

Is
said character male or female?
Ugly, cute, pretty, beautiful, average?
Compassionate, Cruel, Forgiving, Vindictive?
Spacer, Colonist, Earthborn?
Sole Survivor, Ruthless, War Hero?
What's his/her first name?
Paragon or Renegade or something in between?
In a relationship? If so, with who out of, as it currently stands: Ashley, Liara, Kaidan, Thane, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Tali?  More than one at any point? Did you give Samara/Morinth a shot?  How 'bout Kelly?
How did you decide on each of the, oh, hundreds of non-romantic dialogue choices/interrupts throughout both games?
What kind of armor do you like to wear in ME1?  ME2? What about your color scheme in the latter?
Got any fish or hamsters?
What's your class?  How 'bout your skill point distribution?
In what order do you do various missions in either game? How many side-quests did you do?
If female, asexual, bi, lesbian, or straight?
If male: asexual or straight? (Hey, wait, somethings different here...what could it be?)

Yeah, that's some damn sharp predefinition, I tell you what.

Modifié par Arik7, 27 février 2010 - 09:24 .

[Wittand25]

[quote]Space Shot wrote...

[quote]Wittand25 wrote...

The difference is you are playing Sam Fischer a predefined character. In ME you play insertname Shepard who does not even have a gender until you decide male or female. You do relaise the difference ?[/quote]
[/quote]

Do you?  In Mass Effect you only have 3 back stories and two character types (genders) which is a marginal improvement on customization as compared to most any other game but it still constitutes a predefinition of character, regardless of the few token options that are provided to you as well.

[/quote]
 You have nine (3*3)  possible backstories, which beats the eight of DA or the single one of JE. And as I and many others have already said ther is no reason for the limitation in the male Shepards romance options.
If there was just the male Shepard, (with the backstory of beeing straight like Gerald in the witcher) or if there was just one unavoidable romance per gender nearly noone would ask for the incluesion of same-sex romances.

Modifié par Wittand25, 27 février 2010 - 09:27 .

[danman2424]

Wittand25 wrote...

Space Shot wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

 Shepard is exactly as predefined as the gray warden or the spiritmonk were and both could be gay if the player decided so. There is not a single piece of information in the game, the books, the comics or any other place I know of that prevents Shepard from beeing gay so saying that there is a storyreason for this is simply wrong.

There's nothing barring Sam Fisher from being gay either but that does not mean that Ubisoft will break character and allow you to make that choice in Splinter Cell Conviction.  It's their decision not to move in that direction and I thought that, above all things, our society should respect the ability of the individual (or the private organization) to be able to freely choose how they express themselves.

The difference is you are playing Sam Fisher a predefined character. In ME you play insertname Shepard who does not even have a sex until you decide male or female. You do relaise the difference ?

Yet your choices are still limited. The choice to be a nudist Shepard is not in the game. Is it because Bioware hates nudists? Probably not. Why is there no option to play a transsexual or hermaphrodite Shepard? Surely Bioware had plenty of time to offer the player unlimited choices in shaping their Shepard, right? Wrong. In the end, not only would the options have taken too much time to appease a small subset of the audience, but they would've likely been entirely inappropriate in the context of the game.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Shepard's choices are certainly not unlimited nor is Shepard a completely blank slate. Believe it or not, most of the game is completely out of the player's  control.

Modifié par danman2424, 27 février 2010 - 09:27 .

[Your Synthetic Superior]

danman2424 wrote...

MPSai wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Maybe even that is just too "effeminate" to cope with.

Yeah, REAL MEN don't bother with woman pleasin'. 

danman2424 wrote...

Technically the Asari cannot be all female, otherwise they would not be able to mate with each other.

Um, they reproduce through parthenogenesis, not through genitalia. It's even explained, they use their mind meld to take part of the genetic signature of a partner and then whip up an offspring based on that (probably so offspring aren't just clones.) So no, it is entirely possible for Asari to be all female since they don't reproduce through sexual intercourse.

The fact that they don't have sexual organs, and apparently have no "male" counterpart means they are not male or female. You are considered female because there is a male counterpart. If there is no male counterpart then the distinction of being "female" is not needed. The distinction of sex means nothing to them.

Doesn't matter if asari are female or not, any human female who is sexually attracted to them is a lesbian. Why? Because they have a female aesthetic. A woman who is attracted to a pre-op transexual (one that actual looks like a woman) is still a lesbian because she is attracted to the female aesthetic.

Femshep+Liara+sexual relationship = gay option for femshep.

Liara might not be gay, but any human female who is attracted to her is. Throwing a vagina on Jacob is not going to make any heterosexual man suddenly become attracted to her. Only a homosexual man could find "Jackie" attractive.

[Arik7]

danman2424 wrote...
Yet your choices are still limited. The choice to be a nudist Shepard is not in the game. Is it because Bioware hates nudists? Probably not. Why is there no option to play a transsexual or hermaphrodite Shepard? Surely Bioware had plenty of time to offer the player unlimited choices in shaping their Shepard, right? Wrong. In the end, not only would the options have taken too much time to appease a small subset of the audience, but they would've likely been entirely inappropriate in the context of the game.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Shepard's choices are certainly not unlimited nor is Shepard a completely blank slate. Believe it or not, most of the game is completely out of the player's  control.

If you want to play a nudist Shepard or a hermaphrodite Shepard, goes ahead and start a thread and see how many of the fans agree with you.   There are numerous request threads from fans.  There's nothing wrong with that.

Modifié par Arik7, 27 février 2010 - 09:30 .

[didymos1120]

Arik7 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
Misprint in the codex?  What?  Both the ME1 codex and ME2 codex explicitly state that the Asari is an all-Female race.  There's no ambiguity about it.   Hudson simply could not admit they were backtracking on lesbian romances.
 

Guess what: that entry is from the Primary Codex...which means it's voiced.

It must have been misvoiced as well then.   TWICE.   In both games.

Yeah, here we go:

ME1:  http://www.youtube.c...N5d4dOw#t=4m20s
ME2:  http://www.youtube.c...Ga0yHR0#t=0m27s

To be fair, it is the same recording being re-used.

[cutthecameras]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...
Throwing a vagina on Jacob is not going to make any heterosexual man suddenly become attracted to her. Only a homosexual man could find "Jackie" attractive.

Yikes @ FTM spectrum Jacob.

Though in this hypothetical situation, renaming him Jackie is invalidating to his male-identity. *lols*

Modifié par cutthecameras, 27 février 2010 - 09:34 .

[Sabul]

danman2424 wrote...

Yet your choices are still limited. The choice to be a nudist Shepard is not in the game. Is it because Bioware hates nudists? Probably not. Why is there no option to play a transsexual or hermaphrodite Shepard? Surely Bioware had plenty of time to offer the player unlimited choices in shaping their Shepard, right? Wrong. In the end, not only would the options have taken too much time to appease a small subset of the audience, but they would've likely been entirely inappropriate in the context of the game.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Shepard's choices are certainly not unlimited nor is Shepard a completely blank slate. Believe it or not, most of the game is completely out of the player's  control.

The problem with the argument of it taking too much time or resources to develop this content is they did anyways. In Mass Effect the m/m option and both f/f options were all but finished and disabled shortly before release. Dialog recorded, scenes animated, implemented into the game. These things can still be found on the game disks and reactivated by modderes. It was even found that the voices were recorded for m/m and f/f options in ME2 once again to be disable.

No one is saying Bioware hates anyone. Comparing a sexual orientation to nudism is rather silly. As well as transexuality and so on. These are not the same thing and far more difficult to have in a game. Not to mention have nothing to do with romance options.

Modifié par Sabul, 27 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[Wittand25]

danman2424 wrote...

 Wrong. In the end, not only would the options have taken too much time to appease a small subset of the audience, but they would've likely been entirely inappropriate in the context of the game.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Shepard's choices are certainly not unlimited nor is Shepard a completely blank slate. Believe it or not, most of the game is completely out of the player's  control.

Why can you not understand that I and most other supporters of a m/m romance would be perfectly satisfied if there was a story reason for it not to be there. Nobody complained about Gerald in the Witcher, nobody complained about Scarlet in Venetica because those characters were predefined including sex and love interest. People are wondering about the absence of the option for Shepard to be gay because ther is no storyrelated reason for him not to be.
Once more for clarity if Bioware gave a reason why Shepard can not be gay, we would accept it but they did not and I dont see how they would be able to do it.
About the size of those that want it. Sure there are less than those wanting f/m but romances are a dimishing return anyway. How many people do you know that will play throug the game several three times just to see all three straight romances ? I am willing to bet quite some money that more people would appriciate a gay option for male Shepard more than a fourth straight one.

Modifié par Wittand25, 27 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Space Shot]

Allison W wrote...



This would ordinarily hold water, except for some reason they went and added same-sex romances, then took them out. And this happened in both games. And now they're doing some goofy dance around how "Oh, Shepard is just a 'predefined character'" (which is BS) and how ME1 didn't really have a lesbian relationship (also BS; there's no getting around the fact that it was pretty gay for femShep, even if it wasn't for Liara)!"



So something really fishy is going on here, and it stinks of all kinds of unpleasantness.

They did no such thing. You can still maintain a homosexual relationship with Liara. You can flirt same sex crew members. Same sex relationships are freely passed in conversation and potentially to further "exploits" for the next game. There is even a mission where you purposefully advance a same sex relationship, which you can, as I understand it, advance to it's "unfortunate" end. The only difference between ME1 and ME2 is that there is no glorified sex scene between two members of the same sex, (which what I suspect is what you are really after given how little the subject is actually shied away from in the rest of the game.)

[danman2424]

cutthecameras wrote...

I am not a woman because men exist and I am not like them. I am female because I just am.
 

*SIGH* If men didn't exist there would be no need for the term "female". You wouldn't be called female because there would be no need for distinction. We require a distinction between sexes because we have 2 different sexes, but if there were not 2 sexes, then you wouldn't be a member of either nor would any distinction be needed. There would be nothing to look at you and say "you're female" because you have the same parts as everybody else.
Being "female" would have no meaning.  

Hopefully you understand that.

Modifié par danman2424, 27 février 2010 - 09:52 .