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Same Sex Romances


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#101
Ryzaki

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danman2424 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You realize that's as good an argument for putting it in though right? 

Not at all. Hitting a reporter is not even comparable to the light the character would be in if he were engaging in homosexual activity. That's like saying "Well what the heck, they allow you to hit reporters in the game so why not just allow players the option to dress Shepard in drag? I'm sure the players would get a kick out of it."

Sadly your logic is flawed.


Right my logic is flawed. Okay. Mr. Dress Shepard in drag. Heck if there was a male casual outifit that was a dress I wouldn't care. I would look at the outfight. Either laugh or arch an eyebrow probably try it on for kicks before ignoring it.

And most of the time you're running around in armor. FemShep doesn't even wear a dress why should M!Shep? :huh:

#102
Yeled

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tmelange wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is that this is a great solution for the legitimate problem of not wanting to find yourself inexplicably in an undesired relationship; however, I don't think solving this will address the core issue.


What, the core issue of homophobia existing?  No, it won't solve that.  Bioware has no power by itself to implement a solution to homophobia.

I guess I don't understand why we need some kind of solution or compromise.  Bioware's previous games didn't seem to need a solution.  They did just fine.  And I don't see "Why is Zevran gay; I'm not playing your games until you remove Zevran" threads popping up all over the DA:O forums. 

ME only requires a "solution" because the option wasn't included in the first place.  There's only an issue because the content is absent, when we thought it would be there.  If the content had been included, no one would be talking about it.  Not even the anti-gay crowd.

Modifié par Yeled, 26 février 2010 - 03:22 .


#103
Kazen_Demiru

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Cat Lance wrote...
 I'd hate to see something implemented where Shep has to "convince" someone they are gay. That would be ick.


No no, that's not at all what I mean, I would be against convincing anyone that way as well.  But say male shep tells garrus how he feels and garrus just doesn't like the idea, but in later conversation comes back with the same admission.

"convincing" crew members is just a no-no to me,

...blah the issue is just so touch-and-go in a "Make YOUR choices and play how YOU want to play" type of game :unsure:

#104
tmelange

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Erode_The_Soul wrote...

tmelange wrote...
I think that it's an erroneous assumption to suppose that BW didn't implement, or wouldn't implement, an m/m option because they couldn't figure out a way to do it. The thing about discrimination and phobic behavior is that nothing is ever enough. You can color code options and a good percentage of the masses will still cry bloody murder. There is no middle ground to be found when people hate you or what you are for reasons that allow freedom for them and less freedom for you.


Perhaps it is an erroneous assumption, but we have very little knowledge as to why the options were excluded, so all we can do is guess. It may be unlikely they could not find a means to implement it, but there is still a small chance this is true thanks to the vague, non-answers we have on the subject.

In terms of the "no middle ground," it may be true that there is no viable solution to appease both sides. But shutting down the dialogue helps no one. We may never reach an amicable solution, but there's no harm in entertaining/discussing them.


Hmm, I don't know. Does it harm anything to discuss this in this way? I think I lack standing to answer this (not being a gay male). I leave it to anyone who does have specific standing to consider if even the discussion of the topic, with solutions framed in this way, hurts more than it helps. Of course, I never said that anyone was prohibited from discussing anything they want, any way they want; I simply said that I wished the discussion was redirected.

On issues where I do have standing (gender, race), I would say that a discussion that frames limiting solutions is offensive and counter-productive to me, and I would not entertain such, e.g. a discussion that starts with the premise of how to allow women into the workforce without impinging on a man's right to be a man: let them be secretaries; or whether there should be more people of color in movies that cater to a larger majority audience that is caucasian: they can be sidekicks, hooks, crooks. Some things are offensive in what these things assume to be rights afforded to others and not to the class of people at issue. Catering to the underlying assumption, likely undermines your whole position. Though, of course, there are battles that have been won historically through compromise and conformity in the short term towards a larger agenda. I don't think that's the way to go in this instance, but...:shrug:

Modifié par tmelange, 26 février 2010 - 03:25 .


#105
PyroFreak301

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danman2424 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You realize that's as good an argument for putting it in though right? 

Not at all. Hitting a reporter is not even comparable to the light the character would be in if he were engaging in homosexual activity. That's like saying "Well what the heck, they allow you to hit reporters in the game so why not just allow players the option to dress Shepard in drag? I'm sure the players would get a kick out of it."

Sadly your logic is flawed.

Your logic is that Shepard would be viewed as comical for being homosexual? How is this so different from the fact that Shepard can romance aliens? Alien sex strikes me as more comical than homosexual romance.

Is Shepard seen as a joke by the majority because he can romance aliens? It seems to be by an extention of your logic.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 26 février 2010 - 03:28 .


#106
Ryzaki

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Yeled wrote...

What, the core issue of homophobia existing?  No, it won't solve that.  Bioware has no power by itself to implement a solution to homophobia.

I guess I don't understand why we need some kind of solution or compromise.  Bioware's previous games didn't seem to need a solution.  They did just fine.  And I don't see "Why is Zevran gay; I'm not playing your games until you remove Zevran" threads popping up all over the DA:O forums. 

ME only requires a "solution" because the option wasn't included in the first place.  There's only an issue because the content is absent, when we thought it would be there.  If the content had been included, no one would be talking about it.  Not even the anti-gay crowd.


Nah you would have gotten: "I left that f** Kaidan on Virmire because he looked at me funny." threads but now? Yeah you wouldn't be getting anything new know because they would have been shut down and/or ignored at this point. Or relaized their whining wasn't going to make Kaidan straight and that they could *gasp* avoid the option. Tis amazing. It all seems to stop except for the occasional whiner once in a blue moon. <_<

#107
FataliTensei

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PyroFreak301 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You realize that's as good an argument for putting it in though right? 

Not at all. Hitting a reporter is not even comparable to the light the character would be in if he were engaging in homosexual activity. That's like saying "Well what the heck, they allow you to hit reporters in the game so why not just allow players the option to dress Shepard in drag? I'm sure the players would get a kick out of it."

Sadly your logic is flawed.

Your logic is that Shepard would be viewed as comical for being homosexual? How is this so different from the fact that Shepard can romance aliens? Alien sex strikes me as more comical than homosexual romance.

Is Shepard seen as a joke by the majority because he can romance aliens? It seems to be an extention of your logic.


Alien sex s kina lulzly, especially with Garrus

#108
didymos1120

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Lightice_av wrote...
And seriously, it's in no way unbelievable that a gay man could be an action hero. Ask Captain Jack Harkness.


Better yet, ask Hendel Mitra in Ascension.  That is Mass Effect: Ascension.  It's canon, BTW, all you anti-folk. 

#109
didymos1120

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OK, know this post is a bit stale at this point, but...

danman2424 wrote...
Most people don't take games as seriously as you appear to. I doubt the majority is worried about "Their" Shepard as you call it nor would they ignore such options just because that would be the "mature" thing to do.


Then why are you so concerned about keeping Shep on the straight and narrow and why show up in these threads repeating the same arguments ad nauseum

Any way you swing it, everyone would be exposed to it on some level,
rather than the relatively few that modded the original version on PC
for similar results. Many would come across it, and many would see the game as comical upon
experiencing it.


Well, so what?  They don't take it that seriously anyway, right?

I also see in later posts you've decided many people do take them seriously.  Even too seriously. So, which is it?  Does the "majority" take them too seriously or not that seriously? Or just seriously enough? 

#110
Arik7

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To some people, a woman-soldier could be seen as comical. So what? Must Shepard be a white straight Christian male who votes Republican now?  Just to ensure nobody finds him comical?

Modifié par Arik7, 26 février 2010 - 03:34 .


#111
FataliTensei

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didymos1120 wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...
And seriously, it's in no way unbelievable that a gay man could be an action hero. Ask Captain Jack Harkness.


Better yet, ask Hendel Mitra in Ascension.  That is Mass Effect: Ascension.  It's canon, BTW, all you anti-folk. 


I would have a fangasm in Hendel Mitra got into ME3 as an LI, that guy is seriously bad-ass Image IPB

#112
EphelDuath666

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I'm straight. But in Fable 2 for example, I had sex with several male hookers...yeah, it was for fun, yeah I laughed...but what's wrong with having a bit of fun with a game? And hey, I'm still straight but even if I wasn't, who cares? I don't really understand why people would have an issue with real homosexuality...but with virtual homosexualty? It's not like anything 'actually happens', ya know? It's a video game, anything should be possible. The more possibilities, the better.

#113
MPSai

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Similarly I'm a lesbian but I had a straight female character for my super good/gun-centric Fable 2 playthrough. Maybe some people have trouble detaching themselves from their player character.

Modifié par MPSai, 26 février 2010 - 03:34 .


#114
Ryzaki

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Arik7 wrote...

To some people, a woman-soldier could be seen as comical. So what? Must Shepard be a white straight Christian male who votes Republican now. Just to ensure nobody finds him comical.


No politics! *lightly smacks on hand*

Though I wanna a mohawk for my M!Shep. Or a emo hairstyle. :crying:

Anyways I personally believe the pink/green font would be the best idea for all romances across the board. No one gets into anything they don't want to get into.

Though I do want the ME Deluxe edition. DO WANT. DO WANT . DO WANT.

That would be too much win. Actual stripping, gay romance, a better combat system, all the DLC on the disc, improved graphics and textures, fixing the whole dual dialogue choices leading Shep to say the same thing issue in ME1. Cameos from ME2 and 3 in ME1 would be too much win.

Also might be too much work though. :(

#115
danman2424

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didymos1120 wrote...

OK, know this post is a bit stale at this point, but...

danman2424 wrote...
Most people don't take games as seriously as you appear to. I doubt the majority is worried about "Their" Shepard as you call it nor would they ignore such options just because that would be the "mature" thing to do.


Then why are you so concerned about keeping Shep on the straight and narrow and why show up in these threads repeating the same arguments ad nauseum

Any way you swing it, everyone would be exposed to it on some level,
rather than the relatively few that modded the original version on PC
for similar results. Many would come across it, and many would see the game as comical upon
experiencing it.


Well, so what?  They don't take it that seriously anyway, right?

I also see in later posts you've decided many people do take them seriously.  Even too seriously. So, which is it?  Does the "majority" take them too seriously or not that seriously? Or just seriously enough? 

Huh? You seem to be replying to me with the assumption that I don't think games should be taken seriously.

So to clear that up, let me state that I do think games should be taken more seriously at some point. I don't think lavish choices about sexual preference would promote that. Especially not in a game about saving the galaxy in your starship.

#116
diskoh

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Thank you for putting the effort into the OP. Good job.

Modifié par diskoh, 26 février 2010 - 03:35 .


#117
tmelange

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Yeled wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I guess what I'm saying is that this is a great solution for the legitimate problem of not wanting to find yourself inexplicably in an undesired relationship; however, I don't think solving this will address the core issue.


What, the core issue of homophobia existing?  No, it won't solve that.  Bioware has no power by itself to implement a solution to homophobia.

I guess I don't understand why we need some kind of solution or compromise.  Bioware's previous games didn't seem to need a solution.  They did just fine.  And I don't see "Why is Zevran gay; I'm not playing your games until you remove Zevran" threads popping up all over the DA:O forums. 

ME only requires a "solution" because the option wasn't included in the first place.  There's only an issue because the content is absent, when we thought it would be there.  If the content had been included, no one would be talking about it.  Not even the anti-gay crowd.


Exactly. There really is no solution to this issue, not from the perspective of appeasement, and not from the perspective of BW needing a solution. I think BW chose not to include a m/m option in this franchise for reasons they haven't addressed with complete candor. I think a discussion of why they made that choice, and the positive demonstration of interest from fans missing that content, is really the only route to take here. I think if the option were there, this would be an issue for all of 2 minutes; the majority of people who think they couldn't tolerate it would magically become able to do so.

#118
Erode_The_Soul

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danman2424 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You realize that's as good an argument for putting it in though right? 

Not at all. Hitting a reporter is not even comparable to the light the character would be in if he were engaging in homosexual activity.


Personally, I think Maleshep punching a woman in the face paints him in a way worse light than he would be were he engaging in homosexual activity. *shrug*

#119
PyroFreak301

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danman2424 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

OK, know this post is a bit stale at this point, but...

danman2424 wrote...
Most people don't take games as seriously as you appear to. I doubt the majority is worried about "Their" Shepard as you call it nor would they ignore such options just because that would be the "mature" thing to do.


Then why are you so concerned about keeping Shep on the straight and narrow and why show up in these threads repeating the same arguments ad nauseum

Any way you swing it, everyone would be exposed to it on some level,
rather than the relatively few that modded the original version on PC
for similar results. Many would come across it, and many would see the game as comical upon
experiencing it.


Well, so what?  They don't take it that seriously anyway, right?

I also see in later posts you've decided many people do take them seriously.  Even too seriously. So, which is it?  Does the "majority" take them too seriously or not that seriously? Or just seriously enough? 

Huh? You seem to be replying to me with the assumption that I don't think games should be taken seriously.

So to clear that up, let me state that I do think games should be taken more seriously at some point. I don't think lavish choices about sexual preference would promote that. Especially not in a game about saving the galaxy in your starship.

Your argument basically boiled down to "the option shouldn't be there because people might click it for fun".

#120
Yeled

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MPSai wrote...

Similarly I'm a lesbian but I had a straight female character for my super good/gun-centric Fable 2 playthrough. Maybe some people have trouble detaching themselves from their player character.


And if they do then they make the choice to not romance a character of their same gender.  Its simply another option.

#121
ratzerman

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DaeJi wrote...

ratzerman wrote...

I totally support this thread, but I honestly don't think Bioware is listening. When it comes to romances, they don't really care what the fans want. Just look at what they did to the original love interests from ME1. We'll get whatever romances Bioware wants to give us. Protest threads won't make a difference. Except for the Tali fans, of course. They get whatever they want.


Tali and Garrus were added because the fans wanted them. BioWare does listen, and the hope is that they will listen to us and the various other medias that have commented on this; BioWare have set a standard for themselves, whether they meant to or not, and when they did not live up to it people noticed.


I just feel bad, sitting back and watching you put so much effort into this when, in all likelyhood, nothing you do or say will have any effect.  Bioware has turned ME into a mass-market cash cow, and they don't want any controversy, imagined or otherwise, to disrupt their revenue flow.

I don't mean to keep harping on the original love interests, but the old forums were filled with love threads that lasted for months, that went on for hundreds and hundreds of pages.  What did Bioware do?  Give them tiny, mean-spirited cameos that encouraged players to cheat.  The writers don't care.  They have a particular story they want to tell, and they're not going to let us get in their way.

#122
DaeJi

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danman2424 wrote...

So to clear that up, let me state that I do think games should be taken more seriously at some point. I don't think lavish choices about sexual preference would promote that. Especially not in a game about saving the galaxy in your starship.


Mass Effect has always had a certain air of fun about it; relationship-wise, let me bring up Garrus again. For a tough as nails tactical genius that took on the combined might of three merc groups (and was beating them back for a time), he way anything but badass in his romance. It wasn't super serious, it was fun. And as serious as Shepard's role is, he or she can be a fun character. That's how it should be; while Mass Effect is and should be a mostly serious game, there are part of it that are just light hearted and fun. Romance can fall into either group (Thane=serious, Garrus=funny). And a homosexual relationship isn't funny in and of itself, it all comes down to the characters.

#123
Ryzaki

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Erode_The_Soul wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You realize that's as good an argument for putting it in though right? 

Not at all. Hitting a reporter is not even comparable to the light the character would be in if he were engaging in homosexual activity.


Personally, I think Maleshep punching a woman in the face paints him in a way worse light than he would be were he engaging in homosexual activity. *shrug*


Truth. If Fox was going to slam ME for anything you would think it would be for that. Yet that goes completely unnoticed. :? 

#124
MPSai

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Ryzaki wrote...

That would be too much win. Actual stripping


How would that work? It's not even clear how people get in and out of that ridiculous armor.

#125
Ryzaki

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MPSai wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That would be too much win. Actual stripping


How would that work? It's not even clear how people get in and out of that ridiculous armor.


I meant the Asari dancers. :lol:

They kind of just dance and not...strip. Even though they're in a strip bar. If there's anything that made me laugh at the game it was those strippers. Now that was comical.

"ooh hot strippers...only...they don't strip." :unsure: