7455 réponses à ce sujet

[FataliTensei]

sw33ts wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

http://social.biowar...984/polls/2730/

Here's mine, it's the most recent one

Edit: I think it's the most recent one, I made it only like...2 days ago

It wasn't that one.  I think the one I'm thinking of nolonger exists, but thanks.

Lol ok sorry about that

[DaeJi]

If you are against having same sex romances because of religion, fine, but please to not discuss religion.

[sw33ts]

jkapp wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

So ya. No religious reasons.

religion has nothing to do with contempt for homosexuality?  you are very naive my friend.

Leviticus  20:13[/b] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

alas, this out lies the parameters of the topic of discussion, hopefully religion will not be brought up again.

You misunderstood.  He is saying his reasons for protesting homosexuality in this game is not due to religion.

[jlb524]

Arik7 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

People have repeatedly asked danman to elaborate on why it's "comical" for MShep to be gay and why it would damage the "credibility" of Mass Effect if he were. He never does, and simply repeats those claims over and over. It's why I just stopped responding to him.

He also claims that Asari being an all-female race is a "misprint" in the Codex, and  that same-sex recordings on M1/ME2 disks are "impersonations".     Did you expect anything more? 

Oh really?  'Impersonations'??  I can vouch for the authenticity of the same-sex recording dialog.  I've heard it with my own ears.

[Grizzly46]

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nonsense. It is not up to game designers to change people's viewpoints. They have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

they don't have an obligation; no one has an obligation to do anything, but by incorporating homosexuality into mainstream media, it can continue to erode the intolerance in regards to gays.  

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

[Ryzaki]

Grizzly46 wrote...

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nonsense. It is not up to game designers to change people's viewpoints. They have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

they don't have an obligation; no one has an obligation to do anything, but by incorporating homosexuality into mainstream media, it can continue to erode the intolerance in regards to gays.  

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

You want a game about how drugs are harmful? Play Heavy Rain. It deals with the issue far better than BioWare could.

[Arik7]

Grizzly46 wrote...

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nonsense. It is not up to game designers to change people's viewpoints. They have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

they don't have an obligation; no one has an obligation to do anything, but by incorporating homosexuality into mainstream media, it can continue to erode the intolerance in regards to gays.  

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

The "gay lobby" is in Washington D.C.   We are just fans who wish to fully experience the game by creating OUR Commander Shepard, as advertised by BioWare.

Btw, the drug issue was addressed in ME2.   How can you forget the Biotic God?

[Grizzly46]

tyddrwsau wrote...
But you do get to choose who Shepard romances. There are currently nine options plus your secretary that span heterosexual, bisexual or lesbian female, and xenophilic Shepards. The same-sex male option is apparent in its absence. That's our point. You don't get to choose the things you cited, no. But you do get to pick your choice of romance unless you want to play a gay or bi male Shepard. Hence, our advocacy.

And you don't think about the facts that those romances are to be honest, quite sloppy and unavoidable if you talk to any of the LIs? It seems to me that they were simply added as an afterthought because the devs had some extra time on their hands. This goes especially for the ME1 romances.

I would like to add that the general gamer is a white, heterosexual man, about 15-25 years old. As such you aren't generally too thrilled about gays, but lesbians are fine. To exclude what this group dislike and include what they like seems like good business sense to me. Ok, I am unsure if many would return their games if they found out that there was a possibility for a gay romance, but the ratings would undoubtedly drop. Trust me on that one.

[Jimmy Fury]

Grizzly46 wrote...
Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

I'm curious as to who this gay lobby is... If you mean the group to which many of us belong, we're hardly a lobby. I will ignore the fact that you compared homosexuality to drug abuse and violence (really?) and I'll simply say that many of us have no desire to make this into any sort of political issue.
I myself hate politics. I hate it even more when a simple dialogue gets turned into some sort of political statement. That's all we're trying to do. Open up a dialogue between the fans and the developers on this particular subject.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 28 février 2010 - 01:56 .

[Grizzly46]

Ryzaki wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nonsense. It is not up to game designers to change people's viewpoints. They have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

they don't have an obligation; no one has an obligation to do anything, but by incorporating homosexuality into mainstream media, it can continue to erode the intolerance in regards to gays.  

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

You want a game about how drugs are harmful? Play Heavy Rain. It deals with the issue far better than BioWare could.

Thanks, I'll check it out. Could be interesting.

[jkapp]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

we are not talking about games, we are talking about ME2.  furthermore, violence and drugs are not at all related to opinions regarding gays, which is a social issue. opinions on homosexuality revolve around irrationality while drugs revolve around self choice.  violence exists whether there are video games or not, and hardly does ME induce people to commit violence; u are trying to save the universe if u failed to notice. 

[PyroFreak301]

Creating content to tackle real-life issues and wrapping the story around the them isn't really the same as excluding content that arguably should have been there in the first place.



When a large portion of the game is based on relationships and romance, it's a bit strange that homosexuality gets left out (or cut out) for no apparent reason.

[Grizzly46]

Arik7 wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nonsense. It is not up to game designers to change people's viewpoints. They have no obligation whatsoever to do so.

they don't have an obligation; no one has an obligation to do anything, but by incorporating homosexuality into mainstream media, it can continue to erode the intolerance in regards to gays.  

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

The "gay lobby" is in Washington D.C.   We are just fans who wish to fully experience the game by creating OUR Commander Shepard, as advertised by BioWare.

Btw, the drug issue was addressed in ME2.   How can you forget the Biotic God?

You are lobbying for a gay Shepard here.

And regarding Biotic God, he was not a drug user - he had been pumped full of drugs by Eclipse. Shepard never gets a chance to eat some stamps dipped in LSD or make a joint.

[jlb524]

Wasn't there a drug issue with that human diplomat in ME1?



IMO, you can't debunk arguments for the inclusion of same-sex romances by saying that they also don't include x or y in the game either. They already have tons of straight romances (6 in ME2) and it's a big part of the game's enjoyment for players. Romances affect Shepard personally....they're not just a part of the mission.



Using the drug thing, you'd have a point if they already allowed Shepard to use cocaine but you'd prefer heroine. This isn't the case. With romances, they already allow Shepard to be straight or a lesbian, so why deny M/M opportunities?

[IngoLoema]

"I would like to add that the general gamer is a white, heterosexual man, about 15-25 years old."



I'm white, bisexual (currently in a gay relationship) and 38 years old, so what ?



And by the way, it's bigotry, when homosexuality is treated as such a problem, while the shown violence doesn't seem to disturb anybody.



So I repeat my question I posted in another thread: Why is there so much fear when it comes to man-to-man sex/ love?

[Jimmy Fury]

Grizzly46 wrote...
but the ratings would undoubtedly drop. Trust me on that one.

This gets stated a lot and said in such a way that suggests it is an indisputable fact.
It's incorrect. Simple as that. Look at the ratings and sales of DAO. Look at Fable 2. Look at GTAIV: TBOGT. They all did well and they all had gay content (even if it was crap in Fable 2's case). Heck, The Ballad of Gay Tony has "gay" right in the name.
None of them have suffered due to the presence of gay. And these are titles aimed at that "white male heterosexual 15-25" demographic.
So... yeah. as soon as someone can prove, with numbers, that gay content would destroy a title then it'll be fine to use that as an argument from the stance of "indisputable truth".
Until then all evidence points to the contrary.

[danman2424]

Arik7 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

People have repeatedly asked danman to elaborate on why it's "comical" for MShep to be gay and why it would damage the "credibility" of Mass Effect if he were. He never does, and simply repeats those claims over and over. It's why I just stopped responding to him.

He also claims that Asari being an all-female race is a "misprint" in the Codex, and  that same-sex recordings on M1/ME2 disks are "impersonations".     Did you expect anything more? 

Didymos, there is no explaining why something is comical, it just is. If there were a thread with midgets complaining about not being represented in the game or not being able make "their" shepard the way they are, I would probably give them the same answer. Why would midget Shepard be funny? I can't answer that. It just would be. Although I'm sure they would be just as clueless as to why that is comical as you are.

Arik7, I believe it to be misprint because at the time of writing it, I'm sure they didn't expect it to be taken so literally. Yes, Asari all look like human females. In that regard they are an all female race in our eyes. WE would see them as an all-female race. However, being that there is no male counterpart, there is no need for the distinction of being female. It would be like if a race with 3 sexes where their third sex looks just like human males, came up to you and said you look like an *insert name of third sex* and you would say "but no, I'm male, I'm not *insert name of third sex*". To them you're not male, but to you that doesn't mean anything because in your race, there are only 2 sexes and you are male.

That's probably all really confusing but I hope you can understand why "all-female race" makes sense as a description of the Asari to a human but isn't really valid in a literal sense.

As for the last part, all of the supposed dialogue I've seen has been ripped out of the straight romances. I still haven't seen any indication that a gay romance was completed and on disc. If Bioware comes out and says that's the case, then I'll believe that's the case, but not because I saw a few mods where they got the guy in Chora's Den to recognize Shepard as a female and speak to him as one. Or that made Kaidan recite his femshep romance dialogue to male Shepard. I've seen way crazier and funnier mods than that.

[didymos1120]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

Well, why not?  Would it automatically be bad if it did? 

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

You have to admit this is rather a poor analogy: asking for something which is already partially present, and even mostly implemented but dummied out in ME1 (and somewhat so in ME2) to just be fully present is not the same as asking for censorship.  But sure: if you'd like to, go right the hell ahead.  And yes: I know you don't really want to.

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse?

Negotiator's Request in ME1.  Numerous mentions of Red Sand in the games. Samara's loyalty mission gets into it a bit.  Large part of the canon novel Ascension.

They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

And you continue to ignore that PC-initiated romances are clearly a development priority for BioWare, and that the discontent over lack of M/M in both and the half-assed treatment of F/F in ME2, especially with their presence in other BW games is hardly dragging something in that has no real precedent for either game or company when it comes to the player character.  Instead, we get irrelevant and poor analogies.

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

I see: "Where will it ALL END PEOPLE!? WHERE?"  And no, it's really not.

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[danman2424]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Creating content to tackle real-life issues and wrapping the story around the them isn't really the same as excluding content that arguably should have been there in the first place.

When a large portion of the game is based on relationships and romance, it's a bit strange that homosexuality gets left out (or cut out) for no apparent reason.

Maybe to you. To me it is no stranger than them leaving out a sexual relationship with Shepard's mother. I don't think it belongs in the game at all, even if there is a community of incestuous people that thinks it does belong.

[Some Geth]

jlb524 wrote...

Wasn't there a drug issue with that human diplomat in ME1?

IMO, you can't debunk arguments for the inclusion of same-sex romances by saying that they also don't include x or y in the game either. They already have tons of straight romances (6 in ME2) and it's a big part of the game's enjoyment for players. Romances affect Shepard personally....they're not just a part of the mission.

Using the drug thing, you'd have a point if they already allowed Shepard to use cocaine but you'd prefer heroine. This isn't the case. With romances, they already allow Shepard to be straight or a lesbian, so why deny M/M opportunities?

Well we had Zevran and he was a big joke :happy: no gay/bi men need be in if they are jokes:whistle:

[Grizzly46]

jkapp wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Oki... The world we are living in has a lot of problems - violence, drugs, intolerance towards gay people... How about the game adresses some of these other issues as well?

You are lobbying for a gay friendlier climate; me myself, I consider real-world violence to be a bigger problem, so should I start lobbying for the game makers to stop including violence in their games? You know, to reinforce the antipathy against violence?

Or drugs for crying out loud! Drugs are bad, my brother is a half-junkie, drugs messes people up. Why weren't drugs included in Mass Effect so we could see the devastating effects of drug abuse? They mention drugs in passing, sure, but we never get to see any of it, and we can't let Shepard lock himself in the bathroom to warm a teaspoon of white powder in some water to later pass out in a pile of his own vomits, so we can really see the disgusting effects of drug use. I demand action! Shame on you Bioware!

*sigh* See where I'm going with this? Its exactly the same thing as the gay lobby is doing.

we are not talking about games, we are talking about ME2.  furthermore, violence and drugs are not at all related to opinions regarding gays, which is a social issue. opinions on homosexuality revolve around irrationality while drugs revolve around self choice.  violence exists whether there are video games or not, and hardly does ME induce people to commit violence; u are trying to save the universe if u failed to notice. 

If you haven't noticed, Mass Effect 2 is a game. FYI.

Drugs and violence were two examples I brought up as comparisons - I could have mentioned the world's overpopulation, pullution, trafficking, you name it. There are tons of problems in today's society.

Since I'm in an example mood, lets take something else: I have glasses. Thick, coke bottle bottom glasses, world record thickness. Really bad case of nearsightedness, really blind without them. Still, I have yet to see anyone in ME wearing them. Or sitting in a wheelchair. Having lost a limb. And don't tell me its because the terrific medical science have cured them all, because then they would probably have 'cured' homosexuality as well (ok, a low blow, I admit that). But handicaps or disabilities don't exist as something we can experience in ME - I can't put a pair of glasses on my Shepard, and Shepard will never, no matter how shot up he ever will be, loose any limbs. It is simply something we have to live with.

[Jimmy Fury]

danman2424 wrote...
As for the last part, all of the supposed dialogue I've seen has been ripped out of the straight romances. I still haven't seen any indication that a gay romance was completed and on disc. If Bioware comes out and says that's the case, then I'll believe that's the case, but not because I saw a few mods where they got the guy in Chora's Den to recognize Shepard as a female and speak to him as one. Or that made Kaidan recite his femshep romance dialogue to male Shepard. I've seen way crazier and funnier mods than that.

Actually they have stated it. I don't have the full quote or the article (I think... was it Ry who had it before? someone did... we need a link to that in the FAQ) but Casey stated waaaaaay back after ME1 that the m.Shep+Kaidan content was removed because of space constraints due to their assumption that it would be the least popular romance option. They cut a bunch of stuff out for the same reason.
And you also seem to ignore the fact that those modded scenes include Hale and Meer using each others dialogue. Including Meer recording the "I'm only interested in men" line.

[PyroFreak301]

Danman, for someone who claims he's still on the fence about homosexuality, you seem to speak about it with a lot of contempt.



You're taking the selfish view that it ("it" being optional) would ruin your game, due to reasons you describe as inexplicable? It seems to me you've already set up camp and have the fire going on the anti-gay side of the fence.

[Thunderblarg]

danman2424 wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Creating content to tackle real-life issues and wrapping the story around the them isn't really the same as excluding content that arguably should have been there in the first place.

When a large portion of the game is based on relationships and romance, it's a bit strange that homosexuality gets left out (or cut out) for no apparent reason.

Maybe to you. To me it is no stranger than them leaving out a sexual relationship with Shepard's mother. I don't think it belongs in the game at all, even if there is a community of incestuous people that thinks it does belong.

What does Homosexual romance have to do with shagging your mom?

[Grizzly46]

Ok, a lot of opinions around, and I'm getting nowhere. I'd just like to reiterate what I have stated before: I do support gays, and I don't mind if people want that option. But then, argue with the developers of the games. I just think the entire topic feels so unnecessary, when the entire romancing thing is such a small part of a game with a much grander scope.



If a romance would have any form of impact on the game, the background or the future (ie, future games set in the same universe) then I would be all for it, but it doesn't matter if you bang the consort; it doesn't matter if you bed Garrus, Jack or anyone else, not in the long run and not for the sfate of the galaxy. Mass Effect is the wrong kind of game to get all these involvements in - which is why my canonical Shepard is indeed a heterosexual, but one who does not flirt with his team members.