7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Godeshus]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

It doesn't make any sense. Every ME playthrough is its own little universe - my MaleShep has no impact on the galaxy my FemShep saved. Her Kaidan's hetero; his Kaidan's...well, bi at minimum, but preoccupied with the mission. Neither of them affect whether the Shep of anyone else is gay or bi or straight, or even whether the NPCs are. It's all a decision that's up to the player, and no different than choosing Miranda over Tali over Jack. If anything, I suppose it might be an argument for inclusion of a variant convo line 'I'm sorry, I'm only interested in you as a friend' for all potential LIs, should being friendly spark a circumspect overture

I wish the 'epitome of masculinity' thing would stop, though. The idea that gay men can't be manly and badass, or that no marine could possibly be gay? Come on. They're the men for whom no woman will do. Can't tell me that's not manly, right on the face of it.

I never said gay men can't be manly and badass, what I said was that if my male shep were gay/bi, his masculinity would be reduced in my eyes. It is a pure matter of opinion, and your passion for the topic is forcing you to see things in my post that aren't there. I already stated that I have no issues with gay/bi behavior, in the real world or in games. I just feel that it doesn't have its place in ME.

Here's a crummy example. Imagine you're watching Die Hard, and Bruce Willis drops innuendos on the other male characters. It's not wrong because its gay behavior, its wrong because Jon Maclean just isn't a gay character. 

That is how I feel about Shep, and what I mean by "the epitome of masculinity". 

-Godeshus

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Mordigan wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Shepard's only gay if his player makes him so. Godeshus would never see a gay Shepard because he'd never play him that way. And yet, the idea that some other player might play him that way changes how he perceives the character. 

Can someone explain how this makes any kind of sense?

Godeshus is correct to an extent, but he didn't explain himself well enough I think...

Bioware does NOT give us full latitude to customize Shepard how we want him or her to be.  There are certain things about Shepard that are predefined..

For DudeShep, one of those things is his sexuality.

Why Bioware decided to make DudeShep's sexuality hard locked and not FemShep's, is a mystery.....but I have a few ideas as to why.

Regardless of whether you think DudeShep is canonical or not, Bioware constantly refers to Shepard as "he" or "him" publically.  I've NEVER heard Bioware refer to Shepard as she/her.  Not to say that they haven't, but I certainly haven't heard them..

This is very indicative of how Bioware views DudeShep and FemShep, even if you ignore their biased marketing approach which only uses DudeShep.

So basically, it seems that Bioware itself views Shepard as male and not female....which makes sense.  They may never say it point blank because character customization is one of their most important tenets, but their actions and words make it plain enough..

With that said, why make DudeShep straight only but give FemShep the option to be lesbian/bisexual? 

I think it may be because Bioware wants to develop a franchise from the Mass Effect Universe, and the possibility of Shepard being gay or bisexual would be a hindrance.  Western culture is still very uncomfortable with the thought of masculine heroic figures being gay, and Shepard's cool factor and status would be severely diminished if this were the case.

With FemShep though, it's not much of a concern because she isn't viewed as canonical, and lesbian/bisexual women generally have far less of a stigma attached to them compared to gay/bisexual men.

Another reason of course, is that there is less of a demand for gay male Shepard than for lesbo Shep. 

While the amount of gay male gamers undoubtedly exceeds lesbian gamers, there is a large amount of straight male gamers that play as lesbo Shep for the purpose of titillation, which drastically increases the demand for F/F material.

Just my opinion..

I would not be one ounce of surprised if this, or some variant of it, were the case. And Bioware is, of course, free to make whatever decisions it feels is best for the outcome they desire for their games.

That said, straight male gamers who have problems with even the sniff of a potentially gay (emphasis on potentially) main character are not the only niche market out there. Besides gay and bisexual gamers who are interested in same-sex romance options, there are many straight male and female gamers who support such options as well. We also have money and, apparently, are not uncomfortable expressing our disapointment with the development and removal of content that would have, for us, made the game more enjoyable.

I certainly have no problem pointing out to Bioware that if their focus with their sci-fi property is solely on supplying a gaming experience to straight males sho can't stand the thought of powerful potentially gay men, but are fine with supplying eye-candy and girl-on-girl action... then they will alienate a fairly large percentage of their established fan base. They might make up for it with the shooter crowd, but they might not.

Like it or not, part of Bioware's reputation was built on providing some unconventional romance options in their games, gay and lesbian both. It's part of a package of character development and decent storytelling that helped make their name popular. To see them stepping back from that to placate a niche market that can't conceive of a gay man that someone else would play being a badass marine? That's just cheap, and they should be called out on it, IMO.

[SirGladiator]

I would certainly agree that they don't seem to care much about FemShep, all their marketing is with MaleShep and you would never even know there WAS a FemShep if you didn't hear it from somebody other than Bioware. Thats especially odd considering that most folks who have played both MaleShep and FemShep like FemShep better, you'd think they'd want to put most of their marketing behind the Shep that fans like the most, but instead they put ZERO behind her. I can't explain that any more than I can explain any of these other weird decisions they made, I guess you could say that the person who is making these decisions is sort of stuck in the past, back when it was just assumed that video game fans only wanted to play male characters and nobody wanted any same-sex relationships. I don't think there are very many people who still think that way, but sadly it appears one of the people who still do works in a high level role at Bioware.

Modifié par SirGladiator, 02 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Wittand25]

Godeshus wrote...

I never said gay men can't be manly and badass, what I said was that if my male shep were gay/bi, his masculinity would be reduced in my eyes. It is a pure matter of opinion, and your passion for the topic is forcing you to see things in my post that aren't there. I already stated that I have no issues with gay/bi behavior, in the real world or in games. I just feel that it doesn't have its place in ME.

Here's a crummy example. Imagine you're watching Die Hard, and Bruce Willis drops innuendos on the other male characters. It's not wrong because its gay behavior, its wrong because Jon Maclean just isn't a gay character. 

That is how I feel about Shep, and what I mean by "the epitome of masculinity". 

-Godeshus

All romances are optional.
in ME1 if you dont want a (bi-)homosexual female Shepard you have the option to say to Liara : "I only like man."
A gay romance would be the same and a male Shepard could actually affirm his heterosexuality by telling the m/m option that he is not intrested in man.
Think about it this way. Right now the only reason male Shepard only has sex with females is because there is no possible male partner for him, only if the player has the possibility to rejecet or accept the offer of a male LI for him Shepard´s straigthness can be confirmed.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Godeshus wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

It doesn't make any sense. Every ME playthrough is its own little universe - my MaleShep has no impact on the galaxy my FemShep saved. Her Kaidan's hetero; his Kaidan's...well, bi at minimum, but preoccupied with the mission. Neither of them affect whether the Shep of anyone else is gay or bi or straight, or even whether the NPCs are. It's all a decision that's up to the player, and no different than choosing Miranda over Tali over Jack. If anything, I suppose it might be an argument for inclusion of a variant convo line 'I'm sorry, I'm only interested in you as a friend' for all potential LIs, should being friendly spark a circumspect overture

I wish the 'epitome of masculinity' thing would stop, though. The idea that gay men can't be manly and badass, or that no marine could possibly be gay? Come on. They're the men for whom no woman will do. Can't tell me that's not manly, right on the face of it.

I never said gay men can't be manly and badass, what I said was that if my male shep were gay/bi, his masculinity would be reduced in my eyes. It is a pure matter of opinion, and your passion for the topic is forcing you to see things in my post that aren't there. I already stated that I have no issues with gay/bi behavior, in the real world or in games. I just feel that it doesn't have its place in ME.

Here's a crummy example. Imagine you're watching Die Hard, and Bruce Willis drops innuendos on the other male characters. It's not wrong because its gay behavior, its wrong because Jon Maclean just isn't a gay character. 

That is how I feel about Shep, and what I mean by "the epitome of masculinity". 

-Godeshus

I seized on the 'epitome of masculinity' as a phrase that captured a fairly common refrain that I've seen in these threads from people who don't want to see the possibility of a gay or bi Shepard, even knowing that it would never be their Shepard. With many of them, it seems that 'straight' and 'manly'/'masculine' are tied up inextricably, as if a gay character played by someone else somehow weakens that elusive cool factor of the character. I apologize if I seemed to single you out; it was not my intent.

I can understand that there are gamers who play MaleShep and do not see them as gay. However, I still fail to understand how other people playing Shepard differently - as gay or bi - could possibly compromise enjoyment of what would clearly be their straight Shepard.

When I play through with my MaleShep he isn't 'John Shepard,' the canon character Bioware refers to in their promotional materials and marketing, nor is he 'X Shepard,' the straight hero of a thousand different galaxies. He's my Shepard, and he might be gay in one universe, straight in another, bi in a third, and celebate in a fourth.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 02 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[Fade9wayz]

Godeshus wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

It doesn't make any sense. Every ME playthrough is its own little universe - my MaleShep has no impact on the galaxy my FemShep saved. Her Kaidan's hetero; his Kaidan's...well, bi at minimum, but preoccupied with the mission. Neither of them affect whether the Shep of anyone else is gay or bi or straight, or even whether the NPCs are. It's all a decision that's up to the player, and no different than choosing Miranda over Tali over Jack. If anything, I suppose it might be an argument for inclusion of a variant convo line 'I'm sorry, I'm only interested in you as a friend' for all potential LIs, should being friendly spark a circumspect overture

I wish the 'epitome of masculinity' thing would stop, though. The idea that gay men can't be manly and badass, or that no marine could possibly be gay? Come on. They're the men for whom no woman will do. Can't tell me that's not manly, right on the face of it.

I never said gay men can't be manly and badass, what I said was that if my male shep were gay/bi, his masculinity would be reduced in my eyes. It is a pure matter of opinion, and your passion for the topic is forcing you to see things in my post that aren't there. I already stated that I have no issues with gay/bi behavior, in the real world or in games. I just feel that it doesn't have its place in ME.

Here's a crummy example. Imagine you're watching Die Hard, and Bruce Willis drops innuendos on the other male characters. It's not wrong because its gay behavior, its wrong because Jon Maclean just isn't a gay character. 

That is how I feel about Shep, and what I mean by "the epitome of masculinity". 

-Godeshus

I understand what you are saying, these are your feelings about the matter and I can respect that. Now, that said, many people here feel that it does have it's place in ME because we do not see Shepard the same way you do. For my part, I never played MShep and I don't picture our favorite commander as a male. We feel we have a right to politely request - not demand - a feature that we feel is clearly lacking. It doesn't mean Bioware will abide by ou wishes. However, if we don't even make it known that a chunk of their customers (and I don't mean the LGBT members only here) would like it to be implemented, then we can be sure it won't.

[cutthecameras]

Wittand25 wrote...

All romances are optional.
in ME1 if you dont want a (bi-)homosexual female Shepard you have the option to say to Liara : "I only like man."
A gay romance would be the same and a male Shepard could actually affirm his heterosexuality by telling the m/m option that he is not intrested in man.
Think about it this way. Right now the only reason male Shepard only has sex with females is because there is no possible male partner for him, only if the player has the possibility to rejecet or accept the offer of a male LI for him Shepard´s straigthness can be confirmed.

That is actually quite true of course. Everyone who keeps dropping lines about "cannon Shepard" should take note that no one here is advocating to make his orientation gay by default. The option alone threatens nothing and only serves to make those that feel left out feel more included. The affirmation of his sexuality is also an added bonus.

As a lesbian I know I would feel downright disconnected if I couldn't pursue a female love interest in Mass Effect. And I'm willing to bet a lot of straight guys can agree with me on that...

[didymos1120]

WilliamShatner wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Although now BioWare has flip flopped and considers each game a stand alone title.

Ew.  Really?  Who said that?

As far as I know, no one.  They seem to keep calling it a trilogy and ME2 the "middle-chapter" in everything I've been seeing.  I think the confusion comes from them saying they want each game to stand-alone in the sense of being mostly comprehensible and complete if you haven't played the previous one, but there's nothing odd about that.  You hear the same rhetoric about movie trilogies all the time...and also it's basically never true: yeah, you really do need to watch 'em all because you will not understand everything.  I wouldn't waste time worrying about it.

CaseyH-ME2:[/b] Each Mass Effect game is designed to be a stand-alone
piece of fiction. So you don't need to have played ME1 to really enjoy
ME2. ME2 has a self-explanatory beginning that will suck in players new
to the universe, and it has deeply satisfying ending. What players of
ME1 get is the advantage of setting certain things as a result of their
decisions, and knowing why certain things are the way they are in the
universe.

docs.google.com/View

Great.  Thanks for basically confirming what I said (which I've bolded above for convenience).  And it's  not completely true, which is also just like I claimed: you can't understand everything in ME2 without playing ME1 and it really helps to have read Ascension too (and let us not forget Redemption). So yep: standard "each chapter is a complete story" PR that turns out not to hold water too well.

[Ninja Mage]

So yeah..I still want garrus as a male romance option..

[cutthecameras]

Ninja Mage wrote...



So yeah..I still want garrus as a male romance option..

Who would be top?

lol sorry.

[Ninja Mage]

Garrus 8---------------------------------------->

[tyddrwsau]

Godeshus wrote...

Just stay away from my Shep. I've got a man crush on him, and if Bioware made him gay/bi then it would just get weird.

As others have pointed out, BioWare wouldn't make him gay - they'd give us the option to make him gay or bi in our versions of the story. You'd get the option to make yours unquestionably straight as an arrow, if you so choose. ;-)

Ninja Mage wrote...
So yeah..I still want garrus as a male romance option..

I'm all for that Ninja, seriously. But for the record, I strongly suspect that Turians like Garrus have something like the anatomical equivalent of hemipenes carefully protected by radiation shielded exoplates (as the rest of their bodies are). That may just be because I've been the caretaker for several reptiles, and they're the easiest analogues I can identify with. We'll never know. 


In related news to the topic as a whole, here is an Interesting article from Lesbian Gamers posted in our group discussion thread.

[Ninja Mage]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Just stay away from my Shep. I've got a man crush on him, and if Bioware made him gay/bi then it would just get weird.

As others have pointed out, BioWare wouldn't make him gay - they'd give us the option to make him gay or bi in our versions of the story. You'd get the option to make yours unquestionably straight as an arrow, if you so choose. ;-)

Ninja Mage wrote...
So yeah..I still want garrus as a male romance option..

I'm all for that Ninja, seriously. But for the record, I strongly suspect that Turians like Garrus have something like the anatomical equivalent of hemipenes carefully protected by radiation shielded exoplates (as the rest of their bodies are). That may just be because I've been the caretaker for several reptiles, and they're the easiest analogues I can identify with. We'll never know. 


In related news to the topic as a whole, here is an Interesting article from Lesbian Gamers posted in our group discussion thread.

Perhaps, perhaps not. A fictional alien species doesn't have to  adhere to your reptile, anatomically correct nerd nonsense

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 02 mars 2010 - 02:10 .

[catabuca]

FemShep shouldn't have that fugly short curly hairstyle - they should take it out of the game, it just doesn't make sense in the ME universe.



Hang on a minute, why don't I just make sure I never make a femShep with that hairstyle? That way, MY ME universe will continue to make sense.



Gee, I guess you can use that rule for anything else too. Like green eyes, renegade dialogue, helmets, and whether you choose to romance a man or a woman.



I'm being facile, but really, reading that 'it doesn't make sense for manShep to be gay' makes my eyes bleed, and I like my eyes, so that's not good.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

I don't have a problem with not having same sex romances nor do i have problem if they were included. I'm straight so i'm generally apathetic to this issue, but I do have a problem with the "if shepard was gay/bi he would be less manly" argument. Anyone who thinks that didn't pay attention in 10th grade history class or you would know the greatest general in human history (Alexander the Great) was bi. The Sacred Band of Thebes were also all bi/gay.

[techpriest1]

tyddrwsau wrote...
Interesting article from Lesbian Gamers posted in our group discussion thread.

Interesting article from Necrophiliac Gamers
yes, we all vote for dead squaddie sex romances (same sex includes)

[Arik7]

techpriest1 wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...
Interesting article from Lesbian Gamers posted in our group discussion thread.

Interesting article from Necrophiliac Gamers
yes, we all vote for dead squaddie sex romances (same sex includes)

So straight men who enjoy f/f interactions should also enjoy necrophilia then?   If it's not for procreation, and not in the missionary position, it's all the same abomination anyway, right?

[Caeseji]

Considering I was open about my sexuality in the Dragon Age threads I may as well give my two cents here. I am openly bisexual and that's the end of it and I would love to have the option, it would never be forced, I didn't notice Zev jumping Eldrac in my Dragon Age game, if Bioware put some way of getting around it if you don't want it then it's all fine and dandy and we can all go home and have a few drinks. To the people who are rejecting all of this, grow up and welcome to the 21st century, it's a game about choice, just as life is about choice.

As a footnote, if I can get Garrus then I will be as happy as a kitten, give us a new squad mate with the option and I'll be good as well.

//Eldrac.

Modifié par Eldrac_Spardanae, 02 mars 2010 - 03:59 .

[jlb524]

techpriest1 wrote...

tyddrwsau wrote...
Interesting article from Lesbian Gamers posted in our group discussion thread.

Interesting article from Necrophiliac Gamers
yes, we all vote for dead squaddie sex romances (same sex includes)

I smell a stinky slippery slope fallacy.  Or maybe it's just the dead bodies.

[The Uncanny]

rynluna wrote...

I am a girl gamer who was lucky enough to get the chance to romance Liara but I have to say it is quite unfair that Femshep gets 2 options and you M/M fans get zilch!<_<

Agreed. There are times when I feel like getting my mad on over being denied Jack/Ashley/Miranda/etc... that I have to remind myself that there is no m/m in there at all. Then I feel really guilty and go sit in a corner.

[WilliamShatner]

didymos1120 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Although now BioWare has flip flopped and considers each game a stand alone title.

Ew.  Really?  Who said that?

As far as I know, no one.  They seem to keep calling it a trilogy and ME2 the "middle-chapter" in everything I've been seeing.  I think the confusion comes from them saying they want each game to stand-alone in the sense of being mostly comprehensible and complete if you haven't played the previous one, but there's nothing odd about that.  You hear the same rhetoric about movie trilogies all the time...and also it's basically never true: yeah, you really do need to watch 'em all because you will not understand everything.  I wouldn't waste time worrying about it.

CaseyH-ME2:[/b] Each Mass Effect game is designed to be a stand-alone
piece of fiction. So you don't need to have played ME1 to really enjoy
ME2. ME2 has a self-explanatory beginning that will suck in players new
to the universe, and it has deeply satisfying ending. What players of
ME1 get is the advantage of setting certain things as a result of their
decisions, and knowing why certain things are the way they are in the
universe.

docs.google.com/View

Great.  Thanks for basically confirming what I said (which I've bolded above for convenience).  And it's  not completely true, which is also just like I claimed: you can't understand everything in ME2 without playing ME1 and it really helps to have read Ascension too (and let us not forget Redemption). So yep: standard "each chapter is a complete story" PR that turns out not to hold water too well.

That is indeed the case but I'd put it down to oversights than anything else, and there are just as many (if not more!) oversights/things that don't make sense for people who have play Mass Effect 1 than those who haven't.  It still doesn't change the view that they attempt to create each ME with a stand alone game philosphy.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 02 mars 2010 - 04:45 .

[NickBurnside]

While I am a opposed to this
If they're going to add it just make a gay character
like not bi-sexual
but gay

[Gemini1179]

Crazy_Cat_Lady wrote...

I don't have a problem with not having same sex romances nor do i have problem if they were included. I'm straight so i'm generally apathetic to this issue, but I do have a problem with the "if shepard was gay/bi he would be less manly" argument. Anyone who thinks that didn't pay attention in 10th grade history class or you would know the greatest general in human history (Alexander the Great) was bi. The Sacred Band of Thebes were also all bi/gay.

Weren't basically all the ancient Greeks bi as well? I know there was a whole different attitude towards the "male seed" and it's "power", or perception there of.

[Gemini1179]

cutthecameras wrote...

That is actually quite true of course. Everyone who keeps dropping lines about "cannon Shepard" should take note that no one here is advocating to make his orientation gay by default. The option alone threatens nothing and only serves to make those that feel left out feel more included. The affirmation of his sexuality is also an added bonus.

Quite true and well said.

As a lesbian I know I would feel downright disconnected if I couldn't pursue a female love interest in Mass Effect. And I'm willing to bet a lot of straight guys can agree with me on that...

As a straight man, I can agree.

It's funny because I read the article linked above at Lesbian Gamers and I had the exact same reaction as this:

"I bought DAO the day it came out, without knowing that as a female you
could romance Liliana. It came as quite a shock to me when I realized
she was flirting with me!"

I bought DAO having seen the commercial a week before, knowing nothing about it other than BIOWARE produced it. I wasn't on the BW forums before, don't read gamer magazines, anything. I created a female city elf warrior and started playing. I was impressed with the game's sexual freedom throughout the game, was obviously stoked that you could romance Lelianna as a female (I did with my male chars as well, she's just such a sweetheart) and I was fairly impressed with the Zeveran character. It was plainly obvious what his character was and I thought that it was fair. I turned him down as politely as I could with my male characters and life goes on. I never felt any threat to my manly-hood as a result of his advances.

My experience with DAO is one reason why I guess I was taken aback by the back-peddeling done in ME2. Everyone knows the Muzyka response is BS, even he does, but I suspect someone higher up put their foot down and that was that.

The sexual perception of "north america" is soo funny to me (I live in Canada). Well, not funny, sad really, the hypocracy is getting to be a bit much. North America is one of the largest producers of porn in the world and yet mainstream culture treats sex like it's the 1950's in some dilusional attempt to keep teenagers from having sex. Instead of nurutring and educating, too many parents try to scare their children using God and simple ignorance.

BW and the producers (I felt) had an opportunity to give a big F-U to the conservative elements (who also happen to be the noisiest because they seem to have nothing better to do) and stick to their guns on the freedom of choice that was really created and executed fairly well in ME1.

I also don't buy the 'financial' excuse for not including said romances. If someone from BioWare wants to show the financial breakdown of those elements, that would be great, otherwise the fact that these games make money hand over fist alone makes that excuse irrelevant.

One BW rep already stated on these boards that BW is doing quite well financially.