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[Mordigan]

Ah I was mistaken then..



Jayla Clark's comment about," Well if you were Quarian and a male" threw me off..

[MPSai]

So yeah. She says the exact same thing to both Shepards, only female Shepards can't follow it up into romance. So yeah, it's a tease.

[Mordigan]

SorenTrigg wrote...

You are kind of shooting your argument in the foot there.
The dialogue to initate romance with Tali is the same for males and females.

It is *there* for females, so would that not imply that she was supposed to be an option?

So at what point does Tali stop having romance dialogue with FemShep? 

Click on this link to watch the youtube video that Daeji posted.  At 1.47, Tali has some gender specific dialogue for MaleShep..

Does FemShep get that far?  And if so, are the lines different?

And no, it doesn't imply that she was supposed to be an option for FemShep, because she has the exact same dialogue for MaleShep, which makes no sense because Bioware doesn't do their romances in that fashion unless the LI is Asari.. 

Bioware isn't stupid you know.  If she was supposed to be an option, she would be.. 

It's probably an oversight if anything. 

[MPSai]

Mordigan wrote...
which makes no sense because Bioware doesn't do their romances in that fashion 

Cause they haven't in other games?

[DaeJi]

Mordigan wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

You are kind of shooting your argument in the foot there.
The dialogue to initate romance with Tali is the same for males and females.

It is *there* for females, so would that not imply that she was supposed to be an option?

So at what point does Tali stop having romance dialogue with FemShep? 

Click on this link to watch the youtube video that Daeji posted.  At 1.47, Tali has some gender specific dialogue for MaleShep..

Does FemShep get that far?  And if so, are the lines different?
 

FemShep doesn't get that far, which we see as a problem. The lead in is the same, the tone is the same, the body language is the same, Shepard's response is the same, but after that it just ends. No more dialog with Tali is possible beyond that point (which, granted, is a problem with all the love interest characters when you cannot or do not pursue a romance with them). BioWare basically leads to a romance path with Tali and then slams the door in our face.

In other news, more dialog found on the Mass Effect 2 disk, this time femShep responding to Mordin about certain, more female love interests: www.youtube.com/watch Thank Ruka13 for this!

[Ryzaki]

MPSai wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
which makes no sense because Bioware doesn't do their romances in that fashion 

Cause they haven't in other games?

...wasn't the dialogue for  F!Warden x Leliana pretty much the same thing as M!Warden x Leliana with some gender specific dialogue? Because M!Warden x Zevran was pretty much the same as F!Warden x Zevran except some gender specific dialogue (and Zev's constant "are you okay with being in a relationship with me?"  But he did that with both genders so...

[Agamemnon2589]

I CAN HAZ LEZBIUNZ?!

[DaeJi]

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

I CAN HAZ LEZBIUNZ?!

That's what we're fighting for champ.

[MPSai]

Ryzaki wrote...

MPSai wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
which makes no sense because Bioware doesn't do their romances in that fashion 

Cause they haven't in other games?

...wasn't the dialogue for  F!Warden x Leliana pretty much the same thing as M!Warden x Leliana with some gender specific dialogue? Because M!Warden x Zevran was pretty much the same as F!Warden x Zevran except some gender specific dialogue (and Zev's constant "are you okay with being in a relationship with me?"  But he did that with both genders so...

It would seem practical that if you were going to have a character romanceable by both sexes you'd recycle dialog as much as possible.

[The Uncanny]

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

I CAN HAZ LEZBIUNZ?!

I'm aware that Jack is dangerous... but I want to see where this goes.

[Mordigan]

Watching this video which contains all of the dialogue between FemShep and Tali, it appears that the gender specific dialogue that Tali states in the other video at 1:47 is absent when she speaks to FemShep (8:58). She doesn't refer to FemShep as a "dashing commander that lets her join her crew."



So that pretty much says to me that Tali wasn't mean to be an F/F option..

[Mordigan]

Ryzaki wrote...

...wasn't the dialogue for  F!Warden x Leliana pretty much the same thing as M!Warden x Leliana with some gender specific dialogue? Because M!Warden x Zevran was pretty much the same as F!Warden x Zevran except some gender specific dialogue (and Zev's constant "are you okay with being in a relationship with me?"  But he did that with both genders so...

If they contained gender specific dialogue, then how can they be the same? 

The gender specific dialogue is the most important factor in determining whether a character was intended as a same sex LI.

[DaeJi]

Mordigan wrote...

Watching this video which contains all of the dialogue between FemShep and Tali, it appears that the gender specific dialogue that Tali states in the other video at 1:47 is absent when she speaks to FemShep (8:58). She doesn't refer to FemShep as a "dashing commander that lets her join her crew."

So that pretty much says to me that Tali wasn't mean to be an F/F option..

It's a line or two and is easily re-recorded or altered. The thing to note though is that Hale does voice some of the romance dialog for a Tali romance. If femShep and Tali were not meant to be a romance option, why have Hale do some of the lines?

Mordigan wrote...
If they contained gender specific dialogue, then how can they be the same? 

Only a few lines are gender specific. The majority of the dialog is the same.

The gender specific dialogue is the most important factor in determining whether a character was intended as a same sex LI.

You would be right about that. Which is why having Hale, the voice actress for femShep, do lines for a Tali romance throws up the red flags. Unlike in Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2's romance involves two sets of voices.

Modifié par DaeJi, 03 mars 2010 - 03:29 .

[tyddrwsau]

Mordigan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...wasn't the dialogue for  F!Warden x Leliana pretty much the same thing as M!Warden x Leliana with some gender specific dialogue? Because M!Warden x Zevran was pretty much the same as F!Warden x Zevran except some gender specific dialogue (and Zev's constant "are you okay with being in a relationship with me?"  But he did that with both genders so...

If they contained gender specific dialogue, then how can they be the same? 

The gender specific dialogue is the most important factor in determining whether a character was intended as a same sex LI.

Because people of the same sex (and especially bisexuals with people of the same sex) never ever get romantically involved without the protracted "whoa, are you sure it's OK?" and "does it offend you if I like you?" routine. That's what makes gay love so nice.

[The Uncanny]

Shavon wrote...

To a point,k it really depends on how you rp your Shepard.

Absolutely. As a role-playing game the emphasis should really always be on - surprise! - roleplaying.

I've always advocated that a Shep of either sex have the option to say to any potential LI "I'm interested" and if BW don't want to / haven't the time to / feel they can't do justice to (etc) a particular pairing then the object of your interest could simply reply "I'm not."

It is unsatisying, sure. But at least it is honest; it would cover the fact that the players wishes to RP their Shepard a certain way and would only require a handful of extra dialogue lines.

[mjboldy]

Like I did with the other threads, I fully voice my support for this.

[Agamemnon2589]

DaeJi wrote...

Agamemnon2589 wrote...

I CAN HAZ LEZBIUNZ?!

That's what we're fighting for champ.

Godspeed, Slugger.

[didymos1120]

Mordigan wrote...

Watching this video which contains all of the dialogue between FemShep and Tali, it appears that the gender specific dialogue that Tali states in the other video at 1:47 is absent when she speaks to FemShep (8:58). She doesn't refer to FemShep as a "dashing commander that lets her join her crew."

So that pretty much says to me that Tali wasn't mean to be an F/F option..

Interesting line of FemShep's in there: "Tali, that's really sweet but I don't feel that way about you. I'm sorry."  Find me an example-- from film, TV, whatever--of a line like that that means anything other than "I'm not romantically/sexually interested in you." 

Now, explain to me how, if Tali was just plain not in the running to be a Female LI, it makes any sense at all to have Hale record that dialogue.  It's just a waste of studio time, voice director time, actress time, sound engineer time, and so on. And all of that wasted time is wasted money, and wasting money is stupid.  And, as you said, Bioware's not stupid, right? 

BTW, where does this notion that Bioware has Hale and Meer (or even their VAs in general) just record everything regardless of whether or not they even intend to use it come from?  Because going by the Tali/Femshep vid above, and the MShep/Tali compilation vid posted earlier, Hale failed to record a bunch of lines that Meer did. It's almost as if they decided partway through that the Tali/Femshep thing wasn't going in and, you know, decided not to waste money.  Because they certainly didn't omit all the romantic dialogue, as that line above attests. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 mars 2010 - 05:50 .

[SorenTrigg]

Mordigan wrote...

So at what point does Tali stop having romance dialogue with FemShep? 

Click on this link to watch the youtube video that Daeji posted.  At 1.47, Tali has some gender specific dialogue for MaleShep..

Does FemShep get that far?  And if so, are the lines different?

And no, it doesn't imply that she was supposed to be an option for FemShep, because she has the exact same dialogue for MaleShep, which makes no sense because Bioware doesn't do their romances in that fashion unless the LI is Asari.. 

Bioware isn't stupid you know.  If she was supposed to be an option, she would be.. 

It's probably an oversight if anything. 

You are kind of missing what I was saying.

She has romance dialogue up until "We should link our suits together." and then it ends with female Shepard responding in a positive way.
I was saying that that is a tease, and makes people sad.
Meaning, 'They put in some romance dialogue, but not all of it. We wish it was all there.'.

I am not really sure what you thought I meant.

Edit: Also, on the asari note.
Of course they do it like that on the asari. Because Liara is the *only* bi romance option thus far.
So we have nothing to gauge it against.

Modifié par SorenTrigg, 03 mars 2010 - 05:48 .

[didymos1120]

rynluna wrote...
The notion that Hale and Meer both record each other's dialogue is just a theory made my Morrigan.  He hasn't posted any solid proof that this was the case.  Until then, it's all up for speculation.

Nah, it's not his theory.  Almost everyone who comes into these threads to argue against same-sex inclusion or to attempt to prove that it's just wishful thinking that so-and-so was supposed be a same-sex option or disabuse us misguided fools of some other supposedly wrongheaded notion,  brings up the idea at some point.  What trips my alarm is that phrases like "It's common knowledge that Bioware..." are typically used, and there's never a source.  Yeah, well, common knowledge also includes "facts" like "We only use 10% of our brains." and "Columbus proved the Earth was round."  IOW, "common knowledge" is a damned liar, and not to be trusted.

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 mars 2010 - 06:11 .

[asaiasai]

Nice 76 pages and the debate continues keep it up folks gay romance may never make it into ME3 but this at least shows those who support this will not go quietly. As a hetero male that drives femsheps only i support the gay romance options in any game. In ME i romanced Liara, in ME2 i romanced nobody, and in DAO i romance Leliana exclusivly as all my characters are female except the one male who lived long enough to get the "witch gone wild" and then was promptly deleted. This lack of choice for ME is pretty hard to justify by Bioware considering it is a viable option in DAO, even if the choices were limited to 2 characters without a mod.



The idea that Shepard is Bioware's character, in Bioware's story, and as such YOU must play along, i consider this a slap in the face. If all Bioware wants is drivers i can get that from 99% of the gaming market, in games like L4D2 all i am is a driver, no choices in what the character says, does or looks like, just drive this unpersonalized avatar, boring. It is a shame because we all know what Bioware is can do, DAO is a far superior game to ME2, i have 4 plays on ME2 and am pretty much done with it. I am back to DAO for character number 10 that speaks to quality, replayability, depth, and customization options. The freedom to play the character any way you want to makes DAO the example ME3 should strive to emulate, we know it is possible as they have already done it, even if i have to wait an extra year to get the same quality, i would preffer to wait then. It is like my Bushmills Irish Whiskey, i can buy a blend but why, when for a little more i can buy 21 year old Maderia finished Bushmills the difference can be tasted so i preffer to wait and pay a little more for a better product.



Asai



Asai

[Temper_Graniteskul]

As a theory it's not terrible, but that doesn't mean it lends support to the idea that same-sex romances were wishful thinking. I mean, it seems like it'd be cost-effective to just have the full script read by both VAs, where the devs can apply as needed and as time permits with an understanding that f/f and m/m may get put in somewhere. The devs get as much materials as they need, barring additions to dialogue later.



However, it's less efficient than the VAs reading extra lines addressing LIs when Bioware isn't planning on implementing fully half of the relationships at all. If there was seriously no shot at any same-sex relationships (for argument's sake, outside of Liara and Kelly Chambers for FemShep), then why on earth would they ever end up with Tali/FemShep call and response, or my personal favourite, MShep's 'I don't believe I've had the pleasure of you serving under me' Kaidan line? Is the theory that they just recorded it for fun and put it on the disc for the hell of it?