7455 réponses à ce sujet

[cutthecameras]

I don't expect anything from Bioware. I don't think videogame developers have any obligation to minorities for representation in the medium of gaming. I would hate to "tack on" anything the devs didn't originally intend to do, but there's plenty of evidence such content was going to be available and simply was not. I'm willing to forgive and forget as long as some effort is made to change that for the upcoming game. Why? I already said I'm not up for anything getting added that would feel out of place but specifically because Bioware is so good at implementing same sex romance seamlessly and tactfully (they have more than proven themselves worthy) is why I find the absence of it in ME slightly jarring.

Simply put: I know quite a few gay gamers that were brought into the world of games over Bioware's previous titles. All we're asking for is an option or two in their current franchise, something we can relate to, nothing Earth-shattering. When I saw a compelling relationship pan out between Liara and my female Shepard in the original Mass Effect it was the first time I had felt, as a lesbian, that videogames could be about things I personally relate to and when I heard that in ME2 you could end up cheating on your LI, like many of you I was quite excited at the possibility of doing so, if and only for more drama, just to see how it would be like. However, my interest in the LIs was totally eclipsed by the fact that none of them appealed to me because it just feels wrong to disregard that my Shepard is a gay woman.

No matter how Bioware sees it, if they give us the tools to bring our own motivations and reasons into the heavily-choiced based world of Mass Effect we are going to project certain things onto Shepard and one of those things might be an "unconventional" sexual identity. I don't see why an aspect of Shepard has to be made cannon just to keep gay gamers from identifying with their character more, especially when it doesn't cheapen or undermine a straight player's game whatsoever.

I don't expect the impossible. I don't want them to go back and open the same-sex options that were taken out to us with patches or DLC. I just want them to know that when this happens (for whatever reason that it did occur) people feel excluded. And I hope Bioware listens and reaches a different conclusion when they approach the possibility of same-sex romance in Mass Effect 3.

[Endurance_117]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Endurance_117 wrote...

Let's face it, romances sucked in Mass Effect, I played Heavy Rain and seen the light

Amen, brother! We should START by asking Bioware simply for more developed romances, not two or three romance dialog branches per character...but eh, what can you do.

I mean the romance was so beautiful I cried.

[Ryzaki]

Uh...wasn't there a whole bunch of Kanye = Jacob jokes? That was comical and Mass Effect wasn't RUINED FOREVER because of it. >_

Then again maybe if Jacob acted like Kanye we might have had the pleasure of punching him in the face.

"Shep, I'm happy for you and I'm gonna let you finish but Revan was the best BioWare protagonist of all time! Of all time!"

Anyways. A new protagonist? Can't be Hendall because he would be M/M exclusive. I don't think he's bi and if they changed that in the game it would be irritating for me. (Mostly because he's BOOK canon. You're not supposed to touch that with a 10 foot pole if possible.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 février 2010 - 04:49 .

[Ninja Mage]

Jacob was allright but they could have found a more attractive black model to construct his face from

[Yeled]

jlb524 wrote...

Octorox wrote...

Jack is unpopular? I had a hard time picking between her and Tali.

It seems that way.  From reading posts, most MaleShepards picked Tali or Miranda.  Jack also gets a lot of hate in general.

I like Jack quite a bit myself.  Except she keeps telling my femshep to f--k off.

[Endurance_117]

Matter a fact, Heavy Rain was the first game to make me cry. If you choose to have romance, it didn't feel tacky. Mass Effect needs to up the game. Come on Bioware, don't let a PS3 game beat you at your own game!

Modifié par Endurance_117, 26 février 2010 - 04:49 .

[tmelange]

danman2424 wrote...

Except DLC missions or Tali romances are things that will be enjoyed by a much larger set of people than homosexual romances and is a much smarter use of their time. They also aren't damaging to the character.

There is no evidence to back up the claim that the Tali fanbase is larger than the fanbase (including gay and het individuals) who would support an m/m option. Just because it is pre-supposed that gays are in the minority in the population at large, it doesn't necessarily equate that the gay gaming community plus those who support gay romance options and the people who just don't care are an insignificant percentage, clearly trumped by those who think xeno-romances with masked chicken-like individuals sporting three fingers and two toes is attractive. To my knowledge, there hasn't been a comprehensive study completed on the buyers of ME, or in gaming in general. Who's to say what constituency comprises a much larger set than any other? There are more gay people in the world than might be obvious or countable.

I disagree that homosexual romances would be damaging to the character. Obviously, BW also disagrees because they did include one type of homosexual romance -- f/f -- and they are selling ME2 by the sh*tload.

Modifié par tmelange, 26 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[FataliTensei]

Octorox wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Octorox wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I wonder how many people used the Jacob romance. He seems not to be popular at all on these boards. And that's saying something. O_o

Ah, I'm glad you brought up the popularity thing.  BW definitely doesn't care about that as they've created a few unpopular straight romances for ME2.  Jacob is one...I doubt many FemShep players chose him.  An f/f option would have been more popular with ME2 players (especially Tali) than the Jacob romance.

For the guys, Jack wasn't a very popular LI choice.  Why include her as an option?  I bet having Thane as an m/m option would have been just as popular as her romance option for MaleShepards.

Saying that same sex romances shouldn't be included b/c they are 'unpopular' with players is a bogus argument, IMO.

Jack is unpopular? I had a hard time picking between her and Tali.

Jack is sort of overshadowed by Tali and Miranda. Vastly overshadowed.

Kind of like Jacob. Except unlike Jacob, Jack is actually more interesting than watching paint dry.

Miranda definitely has sex appeal, and I like the character, but from what I experienced in my playthrough her backstory is far less compelling than Jack's.

Jack had one of the best backstories, she had alt of history to her

lol but my favorite fem character is still Samara

[MPSai]

danman2424 wrote...

There are no transsexual love interests, black females for men, white males for women, incestuous love interests for those that have a preference for such..... the list can go on forever.

In the end, Bioware is restricted by time, and eventually the game has to come out even if every single person hasn't had their specific preference of sex partner checked off.

Still, what is the point of including gay options for the female Shepard but not the male Shepard? What people are really asking for is the Shepards to have exactly equal options, like they do in everything else.

[FlyinElk212]

danman2424 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...


If Bioware came out and specifically stated that THIS was the reason they can't, simply because there isn't enough time or resources on their part, then I think many fans would be okay with it. After all, it IS a reasonable statement, and worst comes to worse, the Same Sex supporters will still play Mass Effect and still appreciate Bioware for making such a great game.

I would think that would be pretty apparent though. I don't even have to hear Bioware's response to know that the answer is pretty apparent.

I suppose it is pretty apparent. I'm simply more upset at Bioware's "other" explanations for why they can't encorporate the romances. Just tell us that you can't cuz there isn't time, guys. No need to bring up a whole 'nother set of controversies with these other excuses.

[BrianWilly]

I myself don't buy the "there was no time" excuse.  They had enough time to more than double the amount of romances that they had from ME1, each with its own plotting that wove into the main story.  They had the time to write and record all the same-sex dialogue.  Random solitary modders on Das Internets have been able to add same-sex romances into this game with what meager resources they've had, in almost no time at all.  Exactly how much time were the devs missing that they couldn't do the same?  Especially considering that everything with ME2 seemed to go on schedule with no hitches.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 26 février 2010 - 04:56 .

[tyddrwsau]

danman2424 wrote...
Not for Bioware, who would have to spend significant time, money, and resources to create this DLC character that only a small minority of their audience will even care about in a serious manner, and the vast majority would use to turn the game into something comical.

I'd prefer enabling same-sex romance for existing characters, although adding new people and new depth to the interactions in the game will always add more cool content - not to mention broader squad dynamics and so on.

As you can see in the FAQ, the "whole new character" angle is proposed specifically as a compromise solution for people who've said they'd "be OK with same-sex romance if existing characters aren't ret-conned for it." The DLC angle is suggested as a compromise for people who say "I don't want gay stuff shipping with my game!" Your compromise position, though, seems to be "give up and stop posting." That's a little too defeatist for my tastes.

[FlyinElk212]

Endurance_117 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Endurance_117 wrote...

Let's face it, romances sucked in Mass Effect, I played Heavy Rain and seen the light

Amen, brother! We should START by asking Bioware simply for more developed romances, not two or three romance dialog branches per character...but eh, what can you do.

I mean the romance was so beautiful I cried.

Dood I bawled so hard my eyes almost popped out of their sockets.

ME2's philosophy: Short, hasty developments in romance f****in rocks.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 26 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[Yeled]

I don't buy the "no time" argument either. They had time to include dying fish and space hampsters. Are you saying that if we had delayed ME2 by a month we might have had m/m options? I don't think so.



They made a choice. The reason for that choice is specific. We don't know what the reason is. But its not a matter of time and resources. This isn't a budget title made by three nerds in a basement.

[FKA_Servo]

Just want to throw something out there, in the case of romances with Garrus, Tali, or Thane...

In both Garrus' and Tali's cases, their affection for Shepard is based on respect. It's not as though you're trying to propagate any species, since you wouldn't be making any babies. Why would sex matter if they are of a different sapient race? It's an emotional connection with another individual.

Food for thought.

[tmelange]

BrianWilly wrote...

I myself don't by the "there was no time" excuse.  They had enough time to more than double the amount of romances that they had from ME1, each with its own plotting that wove into the main story.  They had the time to write and record all the same-sex dialogue.  Random solitary modders on Das Internets have been able to add same-sex romances into this game with what meager resources they've had, in almost no time at all.  Exactly how much time were the devs missing that they couldn't do the same?  Especially considering that everything with ME2 seemed to go on schedule with no hitches.

And, of course, BW's arguments beg the question: if male Shep is a predetermined character, and that's why the m/m option in ME1 was cut, why would they even create any m/m content at all for ME2? Why does it exist at all, if they know what Shep is, it was established in ME1, and nothing can change (or be elaborated on) because male Shep is set? Seems to me that it is a much greater waste to create content and expend resources on a absolute non-option...

[Goat_Shepard]

It's too late. I feel like Tali is all mine. If Bioware wanted her to be bisexual, they would have put it in the game, and not taken it out. If they had put it in the final product, I would be okay with it, since Tali and Garrus weren't options at all in ME1, but since they went ahead with the hetero plan, it feels inscribed on my brain, and if DLC came out with that content put back in, I'd feel betrayed.



It's selfish, I know, but like you said this is an open debate and that's just how I feel and I'm sure many others feel.



Like Tali said to Admiral Koris: "I don't agree you, but I understand".

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

I like Jack quite a bit myself.  Except she keeps telling my femshep to f--k off.

Don't get me wrong, she is my fave ME2 character and I was bummed she wasn't an option for FemShep (though I can mod it with the PC version so it doesn't matter much anymore).

She just isn't very popular with the male ME2 gamers.  I'm willing to bet a Thane M/M option would be just about as popular, so I don't think people can argue that same-sex romances shouldn't be included b/c only a minority of players want them or would play them.  A minority of players wanted and played through the Jack romance and the Jacob one but they're still there.  Most people who roleplay straight Shepards wouldn't even of noticed much if those two weren't options and would have been pleased with Miranda/Tali and Garrus/Thane.

[Darth Drago]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Thanks for the support Drago, and your thoughts! I don't much see the need for the color coding or bright flashing "warning, romance ahead!" lights myself - I've never stumbled into the romances, and had no problem staying loyal to Kaidan on my main Shepard - but I know a lot of folks do. My hubby often speaks of having to beat Liara off with a stick!

-Your welcome. Lol about Liara. That’s what I liked about her. She seemed to almost have that love at first sight thing going with Shepard.

jlb524 wrote...

Ah, I'm glad you brought up the popularity thing. BW definitely doesn't care about that as they've created a few unpopular straight romances for ME2. Jacob is one...I doubt many FemShep players chose him. An f/f option would have been more popular with ME2 players (especially Tali) than the Jacob romance.

For the guys, Jack wasn't a very popular LI choice. Why include her as an option? I bet having Thane as an m/m option would have been just as popular as her romance option for MaleShepards.

-The problem with Jacob I think is the dialog and voice acting you get when talking to him. But to be fair he is the only human option for a female Shepard relationship and considering the other choices kind of bland as well. A male Shepard has 3 human choices.

-As for Jack I kind of like her, I think she’s perfect for a renegade persona Shepard. She’s got that untamed wild spirit that the of the women don’t have.

[Collider]

TommyServo wrote...

Just want to throw something out there, in the case of romances with Garrus, Tali, or Thane...
In both Garrus' and Tali's cases, their affection for Shepard is based on respect. It's not as though you're trying to propagate any species, since you wouldn't be making any babies. Why would sex matter if they are of a different sapient race? It's an emotional connection with another individual.

That doesn't make sense. We - the players - are aware that these species would produce no viable offspring, yet that doesn't mean we can look past gender. All of these races are humanoid and have male and female characteristics. I think Garrus is cool, but I'm not suddenly going to want to bone him just because he's an alien.

[danman2424]

BrianWilly wrote...

I'm not aware of anyone who felt excluded from the romantic subplots of this game just because couldn't specifically romance a black woman.  But if such a person exists, they are certainly welcome to post about it and try 

  Why wouldn't there be? You find it unlikely that someone would find a black female attractive? That's just ridiculous....

I dont equate interracial love interests with anything. Shepard can be any race, so suggesting that a black love interest would cause for an interracial relationship is a bit odd.

I don't think homosexuality is comparable to interracial relationships in the least. I dont even like the term interracial, since I don't see anyone that looks a bit different from me as being another race. Incest, like homosexuality, is largely looked down upon but does not suggest that any harm be brought upon either participant in the process, or contrary to popular belief, that any offspring has to be born. There are many other sexual preferences that are similarly looked down upon that don't harm anyone and that I'm sure you would turn your nose up at or consider them comical if they were added in the game.

In the end, Bioware went with what they felt was appropriate, and what they felt they had the time and resources to implement.

[Jimmy Fury]

tyddrwsau wrote...

danman2424 wrote...
Not for Bioware, who would have to spend significant time, money, and resources to create this DLC character that only a small minority of their audience will even care about in a serious manner, and the vast majority would use to turn the game into something comical.

I'd prefer enabling same-sex romance for existing characters, although adding new people and new depth to the interactions in the game will always add more cool content - not to mention broader squad dynamics and so on.

As you can see in the FAQ, the "whole new character" angle is proposed specifically as a compromise solution for people who've said they'd "be OK with same-sex romance if existing characters aren't ret-conned for it." The DLC angle is suggested as a compromise for people who say "I don't want gay stuff shipping with my game!" Your compromise position, though, seems to be "give up and stop posting." That's a little too defeatist for my tastes.

Indeed, with both of my suggestions I aimed for a middle ground where the new content would be beneficial for all players and would even compensate for the minority who would be angry over a same-sex character hitting on their Shepard.
This is why I have developed a particular amount of Pride in Suggestion 5 as it covers these bases in such a substantial way that I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone could have a problem with it.
Everyone gets their choice of new squad member.
Using Liara and Feron means no new character designs are required.
Picking only 1 means everyone who wants s/s romance gets it and the people who hate it never have to see it.
Aaaand the cherry on the cake, as evidenced by the cut-dialogue from ME1 and ME2, their is a minimal amount of VA to be done because gender neutral pronouns mean the same dialogue can work for either character.

(incidentally I'm inclined to believe danman didn't actually bother to read my post or else he may realize that what he said makes no sense in context to my suggestion... oh well.)

[Collider]

tyddrwsau wrote...
I'd prefer enabling same-sex romance for existing characters,

NO. don't retcon characters.

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

I don't buy the "no time" argument either. They had time to include dying fish and space hampsters. Are you saying that if we had delayed ME2 by a month we might have had m/m options? I don't think so.

I agree.  It wouldn't have taken them that much more time to make Thane a m/m option.  There's already some Meer dialog recorded for it.  And we all know that Shepard doesn't say that much during these conversations anyways, as they are donimanted by the squad mate.

They would have had to remove a couple of gender checks for key romance dialogs with Thane.   Also, cleaned up the kiss and cuddling scene with him to remove clipping issues with a Male Shepard. 

[tyddrwsau]

TommyServo wrote...

Just want to throw something out there, in the case of romances with Garrus, Tali, or Thane...
In both Garrus' and Tali's cases, their affection for Shepard is based on respect. It's not as though you're trying to propagate any species, since you wouldn't be making any babies. Why would sex matter if they are of a different sapient race? It's an emotional connection with another individual.
Food for thought.

This gets back to my usual argument that relationships with aliens far transcend sexual orientation. If you can move past your attraction to your own species (and personal "type" within it), get past your native culture and its assumptions of gender behaviour and find yourself in love with an alien - perhaps even interested in physical intimacy with someone of wildly different anatomy - that really seems to go to a whole new level.