7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob5312]

FataliTensei wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I think colored text, for all romance options, is the way to go. I believe that it would allow for greater roleplaying, as even if the dialog is the same as mere friend text players will know what their Shepard's intention is.

I agree, I don't think it's immersion breaking at all, we have colored text for paragon and renegade

I like this idea, and I think it would improve the game if it were implemented for heterosexual relationships as well.  It also puts hetero- and ******-sexual relationships on an equal footing, and avoids having to have awkward "I'm not interested" conversations after you inadvertently hit on someone.

Yes, I know it's a game, and yes, I still find it awkward.

[FataliTensei]

Bob5312 wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I think colored text, for all romance options, is the way to go. I believe that it would allow for greater roleplaying, as even if the dialog is the same as mere friend text players will know what their Shepard's intention is.

I agree, I don't think it's immersion breaking at all, we have colored text for paragon and renegade

I like this idea, and I think it would improve the game if it were implemented for heterosexual relationships as well.  It also puts hetero- and ******-sexual relationships on an equal footing, and avoids having to have awkward "I'm not interested" conversations after you inadvertently hit on someone.

Yes, I know it's a game, and yes, I still find it awkward.

Yes, there can be some very awkward moments in ME

[DaeJi]

Bob5312 wrote...


No offence intended to you, but I will use this as an example of the argument that BioWare 'must' include same-sex romance options.  I disagree with this sentiment; including romance in their game should not, I believe, obligate BioWare to include an option for every combination of genders.  They have included male-male romance in previous games (DA:O) because it fit the character they had written, so I am inclined to give them a bit of leeway when it comes to leaving them out of their games.  I believe that they did so because they felt it better served the narrative than because they wanted to exclude non-heterosexual players, and I don't think that this is an issue of sexual politics.  I am enjoying the discussion of the issue from a gameplay/immersion perspective, though.

If BioWare had cause to leave same sex romances out of their games, then they should have left it out period. As it stands, in Mass Effect females can have a romance with Liara (who, at the very least, people can agree looked like a female) and in Mass Effect 2 they can have a fling with Kelly. By only including lesbian relations, a more socially accepted form of homosexuality, they sort of dug themselves into a hole.

As far as the character of Shepard goes, again this is a series where the player is supposed to be the one defining the him/her. Shepard is no different from the Warden other than being voice acted. As far as narrative goes, romance has little impact on the overall story and is there to connect players with the world and characters. Opening up more romance paths can only increase that.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Bob5312 wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

I'd disagree with the idea that we're not saying s/s romances should be included. I know I'm certainly saying it: I think they should be included. Yes, it'd also be nice, but I think there's a definite good to be had with their inclusion - enough to say they should be offered on par with any of the hetero options currently on offer. If there's character definition to be had and multiple romances are on the table, then gay and bi gamers should be able to have a seat at that table. There may still end up being more hetero than gay/bi romances, but treating gay/bi gamers as if they and their interests are invisible serves no one.

No offence intended to you, but I will use this as an example of the argument that BioWare 'must' include same-sex romance options.  I disagree with this sentiment; including romance in their game should not, I believe, obligate BioWare to include an option for every combination of genders.  They have included male-male romance in previous games (DA:O) because it fit the character they had written, so I am inclined to give them a bit of leeway when it comes to leaving them out of their games.  I believe that they did so because they felt it better served the narrative than because they wanted to exclude non-heterosexual players, and I don't think that this is an issue of sexual politics.  I am enjoying the discussion of the issue from a gameplay/immersion perspective, though.

Why would I take offense? I'm very clearly in strong favour of s/s romance inclusion. However, I'm curious as to why you think m/m romance doesn't fit the character(s) they've written for ME, or why lack of m/m romance somehow better serves the ME narrative than inclusion would.

Bioware has a history of including same sex relationship options, with as much effect on the narrative as the hetero romances - which is to say, good for personalizing the story and for character development, but with little effect on the larger story arc. Whether my FemRevan romanced Juhani or Carth, the Star Forge was destroyed at the end of the game (light side forever, yo). Whether my MWarden romances Zevran or Leliana (won't touch Morrigan), the ending is the same. Whether my MShep romances no-one, or finally gets a shot at Kaidan, the Reapers are still going down.

[Bob5312]

DaeJi wrote...

If BioWare had cause to leave same sex romances out of their games, then they should have left it out period. As it stands, in Mass Effect females can have a romance with Liara (who, at the very least, people can agree looked like a female) and in Mass Effect 2 they can have a fling with Kelly. By only including lesbian relations, a more socially accepted form of homosexuality, they sort of dug themselves into a hole.

Fair enough, but again, I don't think that including lesbian options obligates BioWare to include male-male options.  We may have to agree to disagree on this, though. 

As far as the character of Shepard goes, again this is a series where the player is supposed to be the one defining the him/her. Shepard is no different from the Warden other than being voice acted. As far as narrative goes, romance has little impact on the overall story and is there to connect players with the world and characters. Opening up more romance paths can only increase that.

Excellent point.  Well done.

[Ryzaki]

DaeJi wrote...

Bob5312 wrote...


No offence intended to you, but I will use this as an example of the argument that BioWare 'must' include same-sex romance options.  I disagree with this sentiment; including romance in their game should not, I believe, obligate BioWare to include an option for every combination of genders.  They have included male-male romance in previous games (DA:O) because it fit the character they had written, so I am inclined to give them a bit of leeway when it comes to leaving them out of their games.  I believe that they did so because they felt it better served the narrative than because they wanted to exclude non-heterosexual players, and I don't think that this is an issue of sexual politics.  I am enjoying the discussion of the issue from a gameplay/immersion perspective, though.

If BioWare had cause to leave same sex romances out of their games, then they should have left it out period. As it stands, in Mass Effect females can have a romance with Liara (who, at the very least, people can agree looked like a female) and in Mass Effect 2 they can have a fling with Kelly. By only including lesbian relations, a more socially accepted form of homosexuality, they sort of dug themselves into a hole.

As far as the character of Shepard goes, again this is a series where the player is supposed to be the one defining the him/her. Shepard is no different from the Warden other than being voice acted. As far as narrative goes, romance has little impact on the overall story and is there to connect players with the world and characters. Opening up more romance paths can only increase that.

The bolded. Sooo much. I have no problem with strictly hetero romances. I do have a problem with just lesiban romances because according to the heterosexual male population: "bisexual chicks are A-OK as long as they're hot and specifically catered for my enjoyment! Gay dudes! Ew Nasty! Get those homos out my games!!!!" 

Ugh. I don't like halfassedness. Do something completely or leave it out. If ME was going to be their strictly heterosexual games they should have made the game stictly heterosexual romances. And no Asari are not asexual Hudson needs to find a dictionary or refer to ME codex. Which ever is faster. And Kelly blew the whole asexual excuse out the river. So now there's defininite [/i]F/F and no M/M at all. Not even a chance for MShep to even [i]say he's gay.
 
Once again: I have no problem with strictly hetero games. My favorite games happen to be Persona 3 & 4 (romance system no S/S options) no matter how suggestive it gets.

I do on the other hand have problems with "Oh gay guys...no...but lesbians are A-OK!" Just bugs me.

Edit: I'm too easily irritated today. Then again. I lost
50 bucks, my leg still hurts, bombed my quiz, have another quiz in 3
days that I don't have a clue what to do, and have 4 papers that I haven't started on due in....8 hours. Yay.

Another edit: For the record this isn't to say that if they had some other lesbian romances that didn't involve Shepard but no gay romances that I would be irritated. In that case I wouldn't care. Side pairings are just that side pairings. But to say that a characer that has multiple personalities and backgrounds predetermined in sexuality just seems...I don't know. I find it silly. Now saying none of his shipmates are gay? Perfectly fine. But Shepard himself? Pfft. Particularly when his female counterpart is nearly exactly the same yet somehow her sexuality is fluid. Go figure. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 05:57 .

[Bob5312]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Why would I take offense? I'm very clearly in strong favour of s/s romance inclusion. However, I'm curious as to why you think m/m romance doesn't fit the character(s) they've written for ME, or why lack of m/m romance somehow better serves the ME narrative than inclusion would.

Bioware has a history of including same sex relationship options, with as much effect on the narrative as the hetero romances - which is to say, good for personalizing the story and for character development, but with little effect on the larger story arc. Whether my FemRevan romanced Juhani or Carth, the Star Forge was destroyed at the end of the game (light side forever, yo). Whether my MWarden romances Zevran or Leliana (won't touch Morrigan), the ending is the same. Whether my MShep romances no-one, or finally gets a shot at Kaidan, the Reapers are still going down.

I don't necessarily think that a male-male romance doesn't fit with the ME storyline, but I didn't write the characters.  I suppose the writers got a sense of who each character was as he/she was written, and they didn't write any of the characters to be homosexual.  I don't necessarily see this as discrimination on their parts, and I don't think that writing a bisexual female character should obligate them to also write a bisexual male character. 

Incidentally, I hope your MShep gets his shot at Kaidan.  I've tried to leave my own opinions out of this discussion and just construct logical arguments, but I don't want you to think that I'm arguing against the inclusion of same sex relationships (which I don't think I am in any case) because I have a personal objection to it.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Ryzaki wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Bob5312 wrote...


No offence intended to you, but I will use this as an example of the argument that BioWare 'must' include same-sex romance options.  I disagree with this sentiment; including romance in their game should not, I believe, obligate BioWare to include an option for every combination of genders.  They have included male-male romance in previous games (DA:O) because it fit the character they had written, so I am inclined to give them a bit of leeway when it comes to leaving them out of their games.  I believe that they did so because they felt it better served the narrative than because they wanted to exclude non-heterosexual players, and I don't think that this is an issue of sexual politics.  I am enjoying the discussion of the issue from a gameplay/immersion perspective, though.

If BioWare had cause to leave same sex romances out of their games, then they should have left it out period. As it stands, in Mass Effect females can have a romance with Liara (who, at the very least, people can agree looked like a female) and in Mass Effect 2 they can have a fling with Kelly. By only including lesbian relations, a more socially accepted form of homosexuality, they sort of dug themselves into a hole.

As far as the character of Shepard goes, again this is a series where the player is supposed to be the one defining the him/her. Shepard is no different from the Warden other than being voice acted. As far as narrative goes, romance has little impact on the overall story and is there to connect players with the world and characters. Opening up more romance paths can only increase that.

The bolded. Sooo much. I have no problem with strictly hetero romances. I do have a problem with just lesiban romances because according to the heterosexual male population: "bisexual chicks are A-OK as long as they're hot and specifically catered for my enjoyment! Gay dudes! Ew Nasty! Get those homos out my games!!!!" 

Ugh. I don't like halfassedness. Do something completely or leave it out. If ME was going to be their strictly heterosexual games they should have made the game stictly heterosexual romances. And no Asari are not asexual Hudson needs to find a dictionary or refer to ME codex. Which ever is faster. And Kelly blew the whole asexual excuse out the river. So now there's defininite [/i]F/F and no M/M at all. Not even a chance for MShep to even say he's gay.

Once again: I have no problem with strictly hetero games. My favorite games happen to be Persona 3 & 4 (romance system no S/S options) no matter how suggestive it gets.

I do on the other hand have problems with "Oh gay guys...no...but lesbians are A-OK!" Just bugs me.

I'm not quite all the way there. I was fine with, say, KotOR, which had one hetero male LI, one hetero female LI, and one lesbian LI. It seemed to fit...it looked right. Similarly with JE, with two bi romance options and one hetero female LI (though shooting down the two women to get to Sky was a PITA - a little too narrow a window if you did the arena all in one shot). I think it can be done, in games where there are many fewer possible romances and they're very clearly defined.

That said, ME is not that game; nor is DA, for that matter. The straw for me was development and then removal of the content, for no discernable reason, followed by half-assed 'explanations' as to why Liara wasn't [i]really a bi/lesbian LI. I just found that insulting. Doesn't help that Kaidan's dialogue, inflection, and actions practically scream that he's just as interested in MShep as FemShep.

[Ryzaki]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

I'm not quite all the way there. I was fine with, say, KotOR, which had one hetero male LI, one hetero female LI, and one lesbian LI. It seemed to fit...it looked right. Similarly with JE, with two bi romance options and one hetero female LI (though shooting down the two women to get to Sky was a PITA - a little too narrow a window if you did the arena all in one shot). I think it can be done, in games where there are many fewer possible romances and they're very clearly defined.

That said, ME is not that game; nor is DA, for that matter. The straw for me was development and then removal of the content, for no discernable reason, followed by half-assed 'explanations' as to why Liara wasn't really a bi/lesbian LI. I just found that insulting. Doesn't help that Kaidan's dialogue, inflection, and actions practically scream that he's just as interested in MShep as FemShep.

Juhani? Oh yeah made perfect sense for her to only be a lesbian. (However my Revan wasn't straight. He and Malak well.... What? That's my roleplaying experience and I'm sticking to it!) See I have no problem with the side characters themselves not being gay. I have a problem with people assuming my Shepard is predefined not to be gay. That's a steaming pile of BS. JE also fit...even if Ali kept giving my poor male warden vibes.

Hehe they did mostly likely take it out last minute. I mean do you see the way MShep walks up to Kaidan? <3 Majority of the voice files are there but some is missing. Alas. If only we could have played the MShepxKaidan romance all its glory.


And yeah...someone needs to look up the word Asexual before he uses it. <_< And read the game's codex.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 06:02 .

[Bob5312]

Ryzaki wrote...

I do on the other hand have problems with "Oh gay guys...no...but lesbians are A-OK!" Just bugs me.

Edit: I'm too easily irritated today. Then again. I lost
50 bucks, my leg still hurts, bombed my quiz, have another quiz in 3
days that I don't have a clue what to do, and have 4 papers that I haven't started on due in....8 hours. Yay.

I apologize if I am getting you worked up, Ryzaki, please believe that my intention is not to offend or enrage anyone.  I agree with you that a double standard (lesbians are okay but gay men are not) ought not to be acceptable, but I'm not convinced that this has happened here.  The fact that BioWare has included lesbians but not gay men does not, in and of itself, mean that they have applied a double standard, and I feel that their inclusion of male-male romance in DA:O goes a long way to defend them from this accusation.  My position remains that the writers have written what they thought would make the best story, and it happened to include an all-female race that can mate with anyone of any species, regardless of gender, and it would not make sense for there to be an all-male race since they would, by definition, be unable to breed. 

I don't see how including a bisexual female automatically opens the door to accusations of bias just because they did not also include a bisexual male as well. 

Incidentally, may I ask what you are studying?

[Ryzaki]

Bob5312 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I do on the other hand have problems with "Oh gay guys...no...but lesbians are A-OK!" Just bugs me.

Edit: I'm too easily irritated today. Then again. I lost
50 bucks, my leg still hurts, bombed my quiz, have another quiz in 3
days that I don't have a clue what to do, and have 4 papers that I haven't started on due in....8 hours. Yay.

I apologize if I am getting you worked up, Ryzaki, please believe that my intention is not to offend or enrage anyone.  I agree with you that a double standard (lesbians are okay but gay men are not) ought not to be acceptable, but I'm not convinced that this has happened here.  The fact that BioWare has included lesbians but not gay men does not, in and of itself, mean that they have applied a double standard, and I feel that their inclusion of male-male romance in DA:O goes a long way to defend them from this accusation.  My position remains that the writers have written what they thought would make the best story, and it happened to include an all-female race that can mate with anyone of any species, regardless of gender, and it would not make sense for there to be an all-male race since they would, by definition, be unable to breed. 

I don't see how including a bisexual female automatically opens the door to accusations of bias just because they did not also include a bisexual male as well. 

Incidentally, may I ask what you are studying?

The beauty known as mechanical engineering and english essays on media censorship (easy which is why i prostrinated so long but...now my Friday is ruinez! Oh well at least I don't have class tomorrow.)

I don't know...I'll admit I'm hot tempered (Yay carpricorns!) but I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. (Most of the time hey we're not all perfect. :innocent: ) but it screams double standard. Unintentional double standards still remain double standards. And seeing as how BW made the material and then removed it just pushes all the wrong buttons. I'm not saying their homophobic but there is a clear double standard intentional or no.

Also the whole: Male Shepard is predetermined to be straight but nothing else while Female Shepard isn't is not only a double standard in my eyes but hypocrisy. Say the crewmates aren't gay if you must but don't insult my intelligence by telling me its impossible for Commander Shepard who has a large amount of different backgrounds and personalities along with motivations, and different variables of frinedship and intimacy with the crew to be gay. That is hypocrisy along with acting as though I'm a moron. DA and ME aren't as different as people seem to keep proclaiming. Oh yays the main character is voiced! Huge diff!

Also: Asari don't seem to be anything more than fanservice to me which irks me a little but not that much. Samara was a breath of fresh air to be honest. (As was Morinth...even if in a darker sense).

Also: The DA team has my uptmost respect. But the DA team and the ME team are not all the same people. I'm not irritated at BW at all nor do I find BW itself to be hypocritical. Just ME. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Bob5312 wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Why would I take offense? I'm very clearly in strong favour of s/s romance inclusion. However, I'm curious as to why you think m/m romance doesn't fit the character(s) they've written for ME, or why lack of m/m romance somehow better serves the ME narrative than inclusion would.

Bioware has a history of including same sex relationship options, with as much effect on the narrative as the hetero romances - which is to say, good for personalizing the story and for character development, but with little effect on the larger story arc. Whether my FemRevan romanced Juhani or Carth, the Star Forge was destroyed at the end of the game (light side forever, yo). Whether my MWarden romances Zevran or Leliana (won't touch Morrigan), the ending is the same. Whether my MShep romances no-one, or finally gets a shot at Kaidan, the Reapers are still going down.

I don't necessarily think that a male-male romance doesn't fit with the ME storyline, but I didn't write the characters.  I suppose the writers got a sense of who each character was as he/she was written, and they didn't write any of the characters to be homosexual.  I don't necessarily see this as discrimination on their parts, and I don't think that writing a bisexual female character should obligate them to also write a bisexual male character. 

Incidentally, I hope your MShep gets his shot at Kaidan.  I've tried to leave my own opinions out of this discussion and just construct logical arguments, but I don't want you to think that I'm arguing against the inclusion of same sex relationships (which I don't think I am in any case) because I have a personal objection to it.

Here's the thing about the bit I've bolded, though, and one of the reasons I'm passionate about this subject. They did write some of the characters as gay - well, bi, in that they were to be romanceable by FemShep or MShep. Dialogue cut from ME1 but left on the disc indicates that both Ashley and Kaidan were intended as s/s romances as well as hetero ones - Shepards of either sex would have been able to romance any one of the three LIs. Even if you find that unconvincing, MShep has a recorded line to tell Liara that he only likes men - not something likely to be included if there isn't the possibility of an m/m romance.

In any event, they cut those but left in the blatantly f/f FemShep Liara LI. Arguably they needed to for plot reasons, but that doesn't explain the addition of Kelly Chambers in ME2 - again, an f/f romance, with no corresponding option for even an m/m fling for MShep. Thane, from my understanding, was design intended to be both f/m and m/m romanceable, but the m/m wasn't implemented.

If there had been none of this, I probably would have grumbled a bit but conceded that there was no intention for s/s romances. If there'd just been the f/f relationships and no hint of m/m, I'd be arguing against the double standard just as others have done and are doing - f/f okay because it tittilates and doesn't make most males uncomfortable, but m/m too 'icky' is no way for a game purportedly aimed at adult, mature gamers to win over a larger market (IMO). As it stands, though, they've planned to implement twice and then pulled content or neglected to develop it, and I'd like to see that rectified.

And thank you. I do understand arguing devil's advocate, and I understand that some people are honestly puzzled by why others think this issue is important - regardless of their own feelings on the subject.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 06:17 .

[jlb524]

@Ryzaki

I love your Kaidan/Male Shep sig!!

About the double-standard, I think it does applies to BW games. Kelly? Come on!! That was a bone thrown towards the f/f lovers...a token. M/M lovers have never gotten the same kind of thing. Just including a bisexual female doesn't open the door to these accusations, I agree with Bob5312, but the way Kelly was depicted in ME2 was gratuitous as far as f/f romance goes. If they had included a decent f/f romance, maybe not but they didn't. We f/f lovers got Kelly (which I found offensive). This wasn't a legit inclusion of f/f as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 mars 2010 - 06:16 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Ryzaki wrote...
See I have no problem with the side characters themselves not being gay. I have a problem with people assuming my Shepard is predefined not to be gay. That's a steaming pile of BS.

Oh, absolutely.

[Bob5312]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Hi Bob5312! ...

I also consider the presence of f/f but no m/m romance options in Mass Effect to be an obvious double standard. One can romance people of a different sex, same-sex if female, and fanged alien reptiles covered in plates that shield against the radiation of their homeworld. But not same-sex if male. I want to encourage BioWare to reconsider that omission, and to extend the positive precedent they've set with previous titles. These games are marketed as being about choice, but they've left out romantic choices in a way that hits on some socially raw nerves, in context.

I don't think that "just about gameplay and immersion" is a minor factor, not for my reasons for playing games. Mass Effect is the only shooter I've played for more than 5 minutes. I wouldn't play the game just to experience the bang-bang-bang thrills. The world they've built, the characters they've designed and playing through the game of choices is what's captivated me so with Mass Effect. That's all I play for. ... I'm delighted with how different Commander Shepard can be upon replay, how effectively I can visualize him or her as a different person. The romances are really touching character stories. I'm really tired of Invisible Gays Syndrome in media.

BioWare has broken past that before, I wish they'd do so more. This is the One Thing I'd specifically like them to change, enough to keep coming to the forums for. I know they'll change other things, that's how game development goes. I think they'll make a good end product. In that process, this change in the characterization optiosn would mean very much to me and my gaming experience.

I apologize for taking so long to reply to you.  You express your position with passion and eloquence; please do not be offended if I take an opposing position for discussion purposes.  Thank you for explaining your opinions so clearly.

I agree with the 'invisible gays syndrome' issue, but what I dislike more is the fact that virtually every time a gay character is included in a story their sexuality is central to their character and forms a major plot point.  There are no 'action heros' that also just happen to be gay.  I don't think that ME2 is necessarily an example of this problem (invisible gays, that is), but your point is quite valid. 

I continue to disagree that the inclusion of a female-female romance option should necessarily require the inclusion of a male-male one; I would rather the writers craft a self-consistent narrative than force a same-sex relationship in for any reason other than the story.  That said, I can't think of a reason for them not to include it, but the fact that it was in DA:O suggests (to me, anyway) that it was a design/development issue in ME2 and not an example of discrimination or a double standard.  

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

@Ryzaki

I love your Kaidan/Male Shep sig!!

About the double-standard, I think it does applies to BW games. Kelly? Come on!! That was a bone thrown towards the f/f lovers...a token. M/M lovers have never gotten the same kind of thing. Just including a bisexual female doesn't open the door to these accusations, I agree with Bob5312, but the way Kelly was depicted in ME2 was gratuitous as far as f/f romance goes. If they had included a decent f/f romance, maybe not but they didn't. We f/f lovers got Kelly (which I found offensive). This wasn't a legit inclusion of f/f as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you! There's more banners to be found at the group linked to it!

...Kelly...ugh....that...strip dance made me want to kick puppies. Her whole character makes me wanna kick puppies.
Poor puppies.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 06:20 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Kelly...ugh....that...strip dance made me want to kick puppies.

Yeah, I don't even flirt with her.  I wanted a legit f/f option not a joke!

[cutthecameras]

Bob5312 wrote...
My position remains that the writers have written what they thought would make the best story, and it happened to include an all-female race that can mate with anyone of any species, regardless of gender, and it would not make sense for there to be an all-male race since they would, by definition, be unable to breed. 

C'mon now. It happened to include an all-female race? The developers of Mass Effect were thrilled to be working on a race of space babes (as they called the Asari in the Making of). I think it's almost schizophrenic for the developer to claim this race of "space babes" is not technically female when pressed, it's like their trying to diminish the impact of their obvious double standard. Trying to play the "they're not technically female card" doesn't change the fact that it looks like girl on girl loving, sounds like girl on girl loving, and probably smells like girl on girl loving....soo guess what? it's girl on girl loving.

There is no guy on guy loving, and I don't believe anyone is seriously advocating for an all-male race: a same-sex love interest for a male Shepard really doesn't seem like a lot to ask. It would even things out, I think.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Kelly...ugh....that...strip dance made me want to kick puppies.

Yeah, I don't even flirt with her.  I wanted a legit f/f option not a joke!

My favorite F/F option is hands down Silk Fox.
...I don't know something about her struck me as more romanceable as a female PC. That probably sounds ridculous doesn't it? 

[Temper_Graniteskul]

jlb524 wrote...

@Ryzaki

I love your Kaidan/Male Shep sig!!

About the double-standard, I think it does applies to BW games. Kelly? Come on!! That was a bone thrown towards the f/f lovers...a token. M/M lovers have never gotten the same kind of thing. Just including a bisexual female doesn't open the door to these accusations, I agree with Bob5312, but the way Kelly was depicted in ME2 was gratuitous as far as f/f romance goes. If they had included a decent f/f romance, maybe not but they didn't. We f/f lovers got Kelly (which I found offensive). This wasn't a legit inclusion of f/f as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough. I see Kelly as a continuation of the acceptability of f/f sexual interest in ME, and a highlighting of the double standard. In no way is she a substitute for a developed f/f LI, though.

[Ryzaki]

Off topic: Has anyone given into the urge and clicked the link in my siggy?

[cutthecameras]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Kelly...ugh....that...strip dance made me want to kick puppies.

Yeah, I don't even flirt with her.  I wanted a legit f/f option not a joke!

I wanted one too but I must admit, Kelly kinda grew on me for reasons unknown. She appealed to me because I flirted with her just for kicks, finding the whole thing hilarious. It was like my Shepard saw her as this gullible little thing that she could play with.

An actual Li however would have made my desire to toy with Kelly quite low on my priority list.

Modifié par cutthecameras, 05 mars 2010 - 06:43 .

[Bob5312]

As both Ryzaki and Temper_Graniteskul have mentioned this, I would like to discuss the creation and then removal of the same-sex dialogue. Now, perhaps I am naive, but this suggests to me that the intention was to include the material, but it was removed because it interfered with the story, didn't fit the characters, felt forced, was included only for 'political correctness' and not developed properly, or some combination of these factors. I have difficulty imagining a scenario in which the ME team created this content and then removed it for nefarious purposes. You seem to feel quite strongly about this, Temper_Graniteskul, so maybe you can explain to me why you feel that this is a sign of wrongdoing on the writers'/developers' parts?

Regarding Kelly Chambers in ME2, Ryzaki has a good point when she (I assume you're female? I think that was in your posts somewhere?) says that it comes off as hypocritical to say that MShep is defined to be straight but FShep's sexuality can be chosen by the player. Again, I don't know this was done for nefarious purposes, but maybe I'm naive. She was, however, an unsatisfying romance option for male Shepard as well, and her dialogue makes it clear that she's interested in companionship and passion wherever she can find it (in the context of the conversation she's referring to being attracted to aliens), so at least it makes sense for her character to be sexually liberal.

It sounds hollow, even to me, but I guess my point is that it doesn't feel forced, which to me is the important thing, and her character is developed enough to justify it. Doesn't address your point, Ryzaki, but there you are.

Modifié par Bob5312, 05 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Bob5312 wrote...

As both Ryzaki and Temper_Graniteskul have mentioned this, I would like to discuss the creation and then removal of the same-sex dialogue. Now, perhaps I am naive, but this suggests to me that the intention was to include the material, but it was removed because it interfered with the story, didn't fit the characters, felt forced, was included only for 'political correctness' and not developed properly, or some combination of these factors. I have difficulty imagining a scenario in which the ME team created this content and then removed it for nefarious purposes. You seem to feel quite strongly about this, Temper_Graniteskul, so maybe you can explain to me why you feel that this is a sign of wrongdoing on the writers'/developers' parts?

Regarding Kelly Chambers in ME2, Ryzaki has a good point when she (I assume you're female? I think that was in your posts somewhere?) says that it comes off as hypocritical to say that MShep is defined to be straight but FShep's sexuality can be chosen by the player. Again, I don't know this was done for nefarious purposes, but maybe I'm naive. She was, however, an unsatisfying romance option for male Shepard as well, and her dialogue makes it clear that she's interested in companionship and passion wherever she can find it (in the context of the conversation she's referring to being attracted to aliens), so at least it makes sense for her character to be sexually liberal.

It sounds hollow, even to me, but I guess my point is that it doesn't feel forced, which to me is the important thing, and her character is developed enough to justify it. Doesn't address your point, Ryzaki, but there you are.

The thing though is the dialogue didn't feel forced (well Meer isn't the best VO in the world anyways but it when you listen to it flows quite smoothly. Awkward in places but Meer wasn't exactly stellar in ME1 to begin with.) Yes though I'm a she. Meh the MShep vs FShep sexuality to me is straight up hypocritical. There is no justification for that. Would have been better off saying the crewmembers were all strictly heterosexual and only Kelly was bisexual. Kelly hits all my wrong buttons so I'll just leave that alone.

Edit: Its far more likely the dialogue was removed due to political correctness. If they really felt Kaidan wasn't gay they wouldn't have left the dialogue that activated from the romance being active with a male PC in ME2. Which really...only gives extra strength to the whole a suit made them do it argument. I don't want my BW to be censored.

Yeah it does sound hollow...but devil's advocate right? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

My favorite F/F option is hands down Silk Fox.
...I don't know something about her struck me as more romanceable as a female PC. That probably sounds ridculous doesn't it? 

Awww, I love her!  I actually didn't know she was an f/f option before playing JE.  Wasn't I surprised when I saw the flirtatious dialog between her and the female PC!!  Back then, I was still 'in the closet' so I was trying to romance Sky (like a normal straight chick would).  I was soooo tempted to take those flirt options for some reason, but I kept things straight 

I took them in my next JE playthrough though.   You know, for 'research'