7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob5312]

cutthecameras wrote...

C'mon now. It happened to include an all-female race? The developers of Mass Effect were thrilled to be working on a race of space babes (as they called the Asari in the Making of). I think it's almost schizophrenic for the developer to claim this race of "space babes" is not technically female when pressed, it's like their trying to diminish the impact of their obvious double standard. Trying to play the "they're not technically female card" doesn't change the fact that it looks like girl on girl loving, sounds like girl on girl loving, and probably smells like girl on girl loving....soo guess what? it's girl on girl loving.

There is no guy on guy loving, and I don't believe anyone is seriously advocating for an all-male race: a same-sex love interest for a male Shepard really doesn't seem like a lot to ask. It would even things out, I think.

Well, touché.  I'm not really suggesting that the Asari somehow 'aren't really female' (and I don't really want to imagine how they smell...), but you make your point well.

On the other hand, they are a race made up solely of women, which means that they have no gender roles.  They are not defined in any way by their sexuality, and they would likely be genuinely confused if they could read this discussion.  Perhaps they were the product of a hormone-driven writer's imagination, perhaps not.  But because they are not defined by their gender as humans are, they are blessedly free from all of the sexual politics that we are subjected to.  They are the culmination of women's liberation: they have a society that does not need men.  Perhaps from this perspective it is less problematic an issue?

I'm not arguing against the inclusion of male-male romance, I'm just saying that I don't think its inclusion should be forced, or that its exclusion is indicative of discrimination.

[Mordigan]

Kelly isn't bisexual.  She's omnisexual.  She'll screw anything with a pulse..

As for why Bioware is reluctant to include M/M in ME, I think it's due to two things:

1) Lack of demand..  F/F is far more popular than M/M because of the legions of straight guys that like to play as females, but since there are few gay males and fewer females (compared to males) that play ME, M/M isn't in demand as much.

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

3) Iconic Shepard is canon regardless of what anyone wants to believe.  Bioware always refers to Shepard as male, and practically all ME related media features a male Shepard.

Why does this matter? 

Because if Bioware wants to make a franchise out of ME, then Shepard cannot be seen as being gay (see number 2).  It would seriously affect his appeal as a central character in the ME Universe, and negatively affect the promotion of the setting.
Just imagine what would happen if Luke Skywalker had been gay....

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

My favorite F/F option is hands down Silk Fox.
...I don't know something about her struck me as more romanceable as a female PC. That probably sounds ridculous doesn't it? 

Awww, I love her!  I actually didn't know she was an f/f option before playing JE.  Wasn't I surprised when I saw the flirtatious dialog between her and the female PC!!  Back then, I was still 'in the closet' so I was trying to romance Sky (like a normal straight chick would).  I was soooo tempted to take those flirt options for some reason, but I kept things straight 

I took them in my next JE playthrough though.   You know, for 'research'

LOL. Silk Fox is my favorite Closed Fist female romance. The one with sky is a bit creepy at the ending. I like the male closed fist romance ending with him. <3 Evil overlords scaring citiziens into submission? WIN!

For the last time. Sheploo isn't canon. Get over it. I'm sick of people needing to be vindicated by their view of the game being "canon" Ra forbid someone else have any fun. "Oh noes! Tis not canon! Stop having fun guys!" 

Also Shep can wear hot pink armor, punch a woman in the face, commit mass genocide and that hasn't hurt his popularity any. And for this lack of sales? I find it ironic DA is still selling quite well despite that. How curious? DA sales don't seem to have been affected at all!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[cutthecameras]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

My favorite F/F option is hands down Silk Fox.
...I don't know something about her struck me as more romanceable as a female PC. That probably sounds ridculous doesn't it? 

Awww, I love her!  I actually didn't know she was an f/f option before playing JE.  Wasn't I surprised when I saw the flirtatious dialog between her and the female PC!!  Back then, I was still 'in the closet' so I was trying to romance Sky (like a normal straight chick would).  I was soooo tempted to take those flirt options for some reason, but I kept things straight 

I took them in my next JE playthrough though.   You know, for 'research'

lol! That takes me back to ME1 when I was trying to decide between Kaidan and Liara.

I was also in the closet at the time and I felt like I was crazy for not finding Kaidan appealing, especially when I took a look at the ME community of the time and realized that most girls were praising Bioware for finally giving them an appealing love interest. I remember feeling like, "yeah...Liara actually intrigues me but...Kaidan?"

Wow. Remembering this makes me realize another reason why I'm so connected to the Mass Effect universe.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Bob5312 wrote...

As both Ryzaki and Temper_Graniteskul have mentioned this, I would like to discuss the creation and then removal of the same-sex dialogue. Now, perhaps I am naive, but this suggests to me that the intention was to include the material, but it was removed because it interfered with the story, didn't fit the characters, felt forced, was included only for 'political correctness' and not developed properly, or some combination of these factors. I have difficulty imagining a scenario in which the ME team created this content and then removed it for nefarious purposes.

The entire gamut of reasons you could consider about why the dialogue might have been created and then removed is effectively about how much the devs thought same sex relationships might have ruined the game narrative in some way?

While I don't care for the fact that it was removed, there are a number of theories going around as to why that was - most of them centred on disc space or other content issues. Some of them considered pressure from out/inside to remove the content - after all, one of the two f/f LIs was left intact in ME1. Untilmately, it's an unknown because Bioware hasn't said. Not one though, so far as I know, considered that the very presence of m/m romance or character development might interfere with the story - because there's no sane reason it would. Hasn't in any other Bioware game, and wasn't qualitatively any different than the hetero romances or the f/f romance that was included.

Pulled because it was 'politically correct' to include? Seriously? *headdesk* If you think inclusiveness of m/m is 'political correctness' in a game where Shep can have sex with potentially half the crew of the Normandy including an omnisexual female personal assistant, then it's time for me to stop talking because we're going to find no common ground.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 07:11 .

[jlb524]

Mordigan wrote...

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

Oh, look who's here!

Anyways, yes of course Western culture isn't comfortable with these things.  It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

[Bob5312]

Ryzaki wrote...

The thing though is the dialogue didn't feel forced (well Meer isn't the best VO in the world anyways but it when you listen to it flows quite smoothly. Awkward in places but Meer wasn't exactly stellar in ME1 to begin with.) Yes though I'm a she. Meh the MShep vs FShep sexuality to me is straight up hypocritical. There is no justification for that. Would have been better off saying the crewmembers were all strictly heterosexual and only Kelly was bisexual. Kelly hits all my wrong buttons so I'll just leave that alone.

Edit: Its far more likely the dialogue was removed due to political correctness. If they really felt Kaidan wasn't gay they wouldn't have left the dialogue that activated from the romance being active with a male PC in ME2. Which really...only gives extra strength to the whole a suit made them do it argument. I don't want my BW to be censored.

Yeah it does sound hollow...but devil's advocate right? 

I didn't much care for Kelly either, personally.  My point is that Kelly's sexuality fits the story.  FShep's does not, you are right about that.

My problem with the 'a suit made them do it' argument is that (besides the absence of any evidence or any suggestion about whom this suit might have been), it raises the question "why did this 'suit' let them get away with it in DA:O but not ME2?" 

Mordigan wrote...

Kelly isn't bisexual.  She's omnisexual.  She'll screw anything with a pulse..

As for why Bioware is reluctant to include M/M in ME, I think it's due to two things:
...
2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

3) Iconic Shepard is canon regardless of what anyone wants to believe.  Bioware always refers to Shepard as male, and practically all ME related media features a male Shepard.

Why does this matter? 

Because if Bioware wants to make a franchise out of ME, then Shepard cannot be seen as being gay (see number 2).  It would seriously affect his appeal as a central character in the ME Universe, and negatively affect the promotion of the setting.
Just imagine what would happen if Luke Skywalker had been gay....

I have to disagree with most of this.  The media reflects our opinions and values, but it also influences them;  the inclusion of same sex romance options in a video game with the high profile of ME2 would be a step in the right direction.  I don't see why Luke Skywalker could not have been gay as his sexuality was not an issue in the story.  Depicting strong and masculine heros that also happen to be gay will help to shatter the stereotype. 

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

Oh, look who's here!

Anyways, yes of course Western culture isn't comfortable with these things.  It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

Apparently according to the US anyways I'm immoral, a liar and not to be trusted due to my beliefs. Oh yay. <_< The only thing the US should be looked as as an example is of what not to do.

Anyways. MShep x Kaidan sitting in a tree....

Bob5312 wrote...

I
didn't much care for Kelly either, personally.  My point is that
Kelly's sexuality fits the story.  FShep's does not, you are right
about that.

My problem with the 'a suit made them do it'
argument is that (besides the absence of any evidence or any suggestion
about whom this suit might have been), it raises the question "why did
this 'suit' let them get away with it in DA:O but not ME2?"

Because that suit was only on the ME team and not the DA one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 07:00 .

[cutthecameras]

Bob5312 wrote...

I'm not arguing against the inclusion of male-male romance, I'm just saying that I don't think its inclusion should be forced, or that its exclusion is indicative of discrimination.

Good. Then we agree on something.

I can't be sure they are actively discriminating gays so I don't make a habit of saying that they are. The reason why they removed the content really isn't up to speculation, they're being awfully vague about it so it doesn't seem like they're prepared to disclose why they did what they did.

However as I've said before, this is Bioware and I find them incapable of making something feel "tacked on" as far as the narrative. They have also shown themselves to be perfectly capable of including same-sex romance in many of their titles and it's never felt out of place, so I feel I must point this out to you: precisely because they are so good at including same-sex romances is why I feel they should. If not them, who?

[jlb524]

cutthecameras wrote...

lol! That takes me back to ME1 when I was trying to decide between Kaidan and Liara.

I was also in the closet at the time and I felt like I was crazy for not finding Kaidan appealing, especially when I took a look at the ME community of the time and realized that most girls were praising Bioware for finally giving them an appealing love interest. I remember feeling like, "yeah...Liara actually intrigues me but...Kaidan?"

Wow. Remembering this makes me realize another reason why I'm so connected to the Mass Effect universe.

Yeah, that's why JE is so special to me.   My first lesbian relationship

I love you Silk Fox!!!   I should adopt a Silk Fox avatar in rememberance.    I actually had the old Silk Fox avatar back in the day.

[cutthecameras]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, that's why JE is so special to me.   My first lesbian relationship

I love you Silk Fox!!!   I should adopt a Silk Fox avatar in rememberance.    I actually had the old Silk Fox avatar back in the day.

Hahaha!
Ugh! I really gotta play Jade Empire!

Oh! I just remembered I can buy it on Steam.
Ahhhhh!!

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Mordigan wrote...

Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

Things change, and one of the ways this will change is with the visible portrayal of masculine men who are also gay. And, given the personalization of Shepard, there are likely plenty of gay and bi, masculine MSheps out there.

Also, arguably, it's not particularly useful to limit your marketing pool too greatly - there are a lot of women who play ME, even if we don't outnumber the men, and plenty of gay men as well. Ignoring our interests simply because we aren't the majority isn't the best of plans - especially considering how many straight men play ME who are neutral or supportive of f/f and m/m romance options. If they can add a little extra content and attract secondary and tertiary market populations, well, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 07:06 .

[Bob5312]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

The entire gamut of reasons you could consider about why the dialogue might have been created and then removed is effectively about how much the devs thought same sex relationships might have ruined the game narrative in some way?

While I don't care for the fact that it was removed, there are a number of theories going around as to why that was - most of them centred on disc space or other content issues. Some of them considered pressure from out/inside to remove the content - after all, one of the two f/f LIs was left intat in ME1. Untilmately, it's an unknown because Bioware hasn't said. Not one though, so far as I know, considered that the very presence of m/m romance or character development might interfere with the story - because there's no sane reason it would. Hasn't in any other Bioware game, and wasn't qualitatively any different than the hetero romances or the f/f romance that was included.

Pulled because it was 'politically correct' to include? Seriously? *headdesk* If you think inclusiveness of m/m is 'political correctness' in a game where Shep can have sex with potentially half the crew of the Normandy including an omnisexual female personal assistant, then it's time for me to stop talking because we're going to find no common ground.

What does *headdesk* mean?  The sarcastic tone of the paragraph suggests it is meant to be insulting, but I'm not familiar with this term. 

Perhaps I am using the term 'political correctness' inappropriately.  What I meant was that it was designed so that they could include every combination of genders for the romance options, but that in the end it did not fit the narrative for some reason.  There may well have been technical reasons to exclude it as well, but I suspect that given the primacy BioWare assigns to their writing these could have been overcome if a compelling reason to do so existed.

To be fair, every Asari is technically a lesbian since there are no males of the species, and I don't know that including a race of all-female aliens that does not reproduce by parthenogenesis automatically qualifies as a double standard.  There certainly is a double standard (Kelly Chambers, Ryzaki pointed out earlier), but at least it forms part of a consistent narrative.

I am not suggesting that a male-male romance would be inherently incompatible with the story; I see no reason why it can't be included.  Given that it was not, however, I'm asking you to explain whether you think it was excluded for narrative, technical, or political reasons, and to justify your opinion in a reasonable way so that I can take it into account and form my own judgement.  If I have offended you in the process of this discussion, I apologize.

Incidentally, where I live it would be considered more controversial to leave a gay romance option out than to include it, but maybe this doesn't apply everywhere?

Modifié par Bob5312, 05 mars 2010 - 07:22 .

[Ryzaki]

^headdesk is when someone says something ridculous and there's no words to respond.No wait that's facepalm. Headdesk is just exasperation at the stupidity.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mars 2010 - 07:12 .

[waterwithoutfish]

I'm just gonna jump on in here...

Mordigan wrote...

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

Why, exactly, won't it be changing anytime soon?  Do you think maybe if media such as video games portrayed gay men as "masculine" and heroic, that it WOULD change?

Why does this matter? 

Because if Bioware wants to make a franchise out of ME, then Shepard cannot be seen as being gay (see number 2).  It would seriously affect his appeal as a central character in the ME Universe, and negatively affect the promotion of the setting.
Just imagine what would happen if Luke Skywalker had been gay....

Or, alternatively, it would generate publicity when Fox News freaked the heck out about the new "gay sex simulator" video game, and sell well just like Mass Effect 1 did after its sex controversy. 
And, as was previously mentioned - Luke Skywalker's sexuality was never mentioned in Star Wars, so he easily could have been gay.  Unless you're counting the Expanded Universe stuff, which isn't really a part of the public conciousness in the same way the movies are.  So the only thing I'm imagining now is an equally-popular Star Wars and even MORE Luke-Han slash fics floating around the interwebz. 

[Bob5312]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
Things change, and one of the ways this will change is with the visible portrayal of masculine men who are also gay.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Bob5312]

Ryzaki wrote...

^headdesk is when someone says something ridculous and there's no words to respond.No wait that's facepalm. Headdesk is just exasperation at the stupidity.

I'm sorry, so he's calling me stupid then?

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Bob5312 wrote...

What does *headdesk* mean?  The sarcastic tone of the paragraph suggests it is meant to be insulting, but I'm not familiar with this term. 

Perhaps I am using the term 'political correctness' inappropriately.  What I meant was that it was designed so that they could include every combination of genders for the romance options, but that in the end it did not fit the narrative for some reason.  There may well have been technical reasons to exclude it as well, but I suspect that given the primacy BioWare assigns to their writing these could have been overcome if a compelling reason to do so existed.

To be fair, every Asari is technically a lesbian since there are no males of the species, and I don't know that including a race of all-female aliens that does not reproduce by parthenogenesis automatically qualifies as a double standard.  There certainly is a double standard (Kelly Chambers, as I mentioned earlier to Ryzaki), but at least it forms part of a consistent narrative.

I am not suggesting that a male-male romance would be inherently incompatible with the story; I see no reason why it can't be included.  Given that it was not, however, I'm asking you to explain whether you think it was excluded for narrative, technical, or political reasons, and to justify your opinion in a reasonable way so that I can take it into account and form my own judgement.  If I have offended you in the process of this discussion, I apologize.

Incidentally, where I live it would be considered more controversial to leave a gay romance option out than to include it, but maybe this doesn't apply everywhere?

Yeah, *headdesk* was me (metaphorically) banging my head on the desk because that statement made no sense whatsoever to me.

Maybe it's years of playing videogames, but when I see an obviously female alien that's sexually interested in Shepard regardless of Shep's sex, that pretty much shouts 'straight male fanservice' to me. Lack of inclusion of corresponding fanservice that allows for m/m action was very much a double standard, as far as I was concerned.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't think it was excluded for narrative reasons. Kaidan works fine as a gay man, Ashley works fine as a lesbian (I don't consider them necessarily bi, in that they would be romanced by either FemShep or MShep depending on the game - they weren't receptive to both sexes in one game). The dialogue was workable, and just as narratively relevant as the hetero LI dialogue. It might have been disabled for tech reasons - weirder things have happened. But I suspect political reasons slightly more, due in no small part to the responses Bioware mouthpieces have given on this topic.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[lewis1306]

jlb524 wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

Oh, look who's here!

Anyways, yes of course Western culture isn't comfortable with these things.  It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

I for one am definitely more comforatable with the human/alien sex than I am with the whole 2 dudes kissing thing.

i don't mind shepard getting with Tali but the idea of seeing a youtube video of maleshep hooking up with garrius or thane would really, really, really, REALLY gross me out. it would be a HUGE facepalm moment.

Modifié par lewis1306, 05 mars 2010 - 07:51 .

[JaylaClark]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Yeah, *headdesk* was me (metaphorically) banging my head on the desk because that statement made no sense whatsoever to me.

Maybe it's years of playing videogames, but when I see an obviously female alien that's sexually interested in Shepard regardless of Shep's sex, that pretty much shouts 'male fanservice' to me. Lack of inclusion of corresponding fanservice that allows for m/m action was very much a double standard, as far as I was concerned.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't think it was excluded for narrative reasons. Kaidan works fine as a gay man, Ashley works fine as a lesbian (I don't consider them necessarily bi, in that they would be romanced by either FemShep or MShep depending on the game - they weren't receptive to both sexes in one game). The dialogue was workable, and just as narratively relevant as the hetero LI dialogue. It might have been disabled for tech reasons - weirder things have happened. But I suspect political reasons slightly more, due in no small part to the responses Bioware mouthpieces have given on this topic.

I may being naive here -- but I just don't think it makes sense to be political.  If that's the case, why would BioWare put out Dragon Age Origins in nearly the same year with not one, not two, but at least three bisexuals in the game that I have found to date.  (Yes, I'm looking.  And yes, it may not just be intellectual curiosity...)  Not only that... they go and specify that this specific world has no problem whatsoever with homosexuality or bisexuality.  If that's not a political statement, in the other direction, I don't know what it is.  (I'd reiterate that their parent company's biggest franchise is Sims 3, which is another no-judgment world, but if that point hasn't been made a dozen times already I'll buy a hat and eat it.)

As for the public statements, well, I can't easily answer that, but I really do think it's either a) covering for their tech problem, left-hand/right-hand disconnect, or c) something we haven't thought of yet.  Or it could be a variation of the 'Liara is asexual' issue.

[frokenscheim]

I'm all for same sex romances in ME, though since they haven't been available thus far I doubt BW will change their tune for ME3.



I see nothing about Shepard's background or persona that should exclude the possibility of him or her being gay or lesbian.

[frokenscheim]

lewis1306 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

This negative view towards homosexual men has been ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years, and won't be changing anytime soon I'm afraid.

Oh, look who's here!

Anyways, yes of course Western culture isn't comfortable with these things.  It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

I for one am definitely more comforatable with the human/alien sex than I am with the whole 2 dudes kissing thing.

i don't mind shepard getting with Tali but the idea of seeing a youtube video of maleshep hooking up with garrius or thane would really, really, really, REALLY gross me out. it would be a HUGE facepalm moment.

Then simply excercise your right not to watch those videos.

[Mordigan]

Bob5312 wrote...

I have to disagree with most of this.  The media reflects our opinions and values, but it also influences them;  the inclusion of same sex romance options in a video game with the high profile of ME2 would be a step in the right direction.  I don't see why Luke Skywalker could not have been gay as his sexuality was not an issue in the story.  Depicting strong and masculine heros that also happen to be gay will help to shatter the stereotype. 

I seriously think you are overestimating the power of the media, and underestimating the power of cultural heritage and indoctrination.

While the media is powerful, it is not capable of changing the negative stereotype of homosexual men as effeminate and unmanly.

We're talking about a stereotype that has existed since before the Romans, and then heavily enforced via religious belief and indoctrination over centuries..

Something as ingrained as this can only change after decades of strong counter indoctrination, which is easier said than done because there will always be plenty of opposition......especially in the U.S and other parts of the World.

As for Luke Skywalker, that was just an example.  I know his sexuality wasn't an issue in the main story, but just imagine the fallout that would have occurred if Luke had been gay..

Why do you think Rowling waited until after finishing the H.P series to disclose that Dumbledore was gay?

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 mars 2010 - 08:51 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

JaylaClark wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Yeah, *headdesk* was me (metaphorically) banging my head on the desk because that statement made no sense whatsoever to me.

Maybe it's years of playing videogames, but when I see an obviously female alien that's sexually interested in Shepard regardless of Shep's sex, that pretty much shouts 'male fanservice' to me. Lack of inclusion of corresponding fanservice that allows for m/m action was very much a double standard, as far as I was concerned.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't think it was excluded for narrative reasons. Kaidan works fine as a gay man, Ashley works fine as a lesbian (I don't consider them necessarily bi, in that they would be romanced by either FemShep or MShep depending on the game - they weren't receptive to both sexes in one game). The dialogue was workable, and just as narratively relevant as the hetero LI dialogue. It might have been disabled for tech reasons - weirder things have happened. But I suspect political reasons slightly more, due in no small part to the responses Bioware mouthpieces have given on this topic.

I may being naive here -- but I just don't think it makes sense to be political.  If that's the case, why would BioWare put out Dragon Age Origins in nearly the same year with not one, not two, but at least three bisexuals in the game that I have found to date.  (Yes, I'm looking.  And yes, it may not just be intellectual curiosity...)  Not only that... they go and specify that this specific world has no problem whatsoever with homosexuality or bisexuality.  If that's not a political statement, in the other direction, I don't know what it is.  (I'd reiterate that their parent company's biggest franchise is Sims 3, which is another no-judgment world, but if that point hasn't been made a dozen times already I'll buy a hat and eat it.)

As for the public statements, well, I can't easily answer that, but I really do think it's either a) covering for their tech problem, left-hand/right-hand disconnect, or c) something we haven't thought of yet.  Or it could be a variation of the 'Liara is asexual' issue.

Two different dev teams worked on DA and ME. As well, there's been much made of the idea that Bioware and EA were attempting to appeal to a wider set of gamers with the ME titles, trying to bring in some of the shooter market. DA has been brought in as an argument against the lack of m/m or (in ME2) meaningful f/f romances; the presence of same sex romance certainly didn't hurt DA sales.

I don't think Bioware as a company has an issue with including same sex romance - they've done so with at least 3 of their titles. I do suspect pressure to remove m/m content to cater to that wider shooter market, perhaps in fear that it would cause a backlash, but it's suspicion only. I find it a more likely scenario than tech issues, and definitely more likely than narrative issues. The inadequate explanations for the m/m (and f/f) content removal just add to that suspicion, though.

All of which is to say, they included straight male fanservice, and neglected a large area in which many Bioware fans feel the company excels: inclusion of same sex romance, and decent character development and dialogue. To which I say: unsatisfactory, double-standard, they've done and can do better, please fix. Including this content would make a lot of people happy, and is unlikely to hurt sales. Also, just because it's a space marine badass instead of a fantasy hero doesn't mean they can't be gay, particularly given the level of input the player has on the character.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 08:46 .

[Mordigan]

jlb524 wrote...

Anyways, yes of course Western culture isn't comfortable with these things.  It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

It's not the same thing, because these aliens are entirely fictional creatures and don't provoke the same response that homosexuality does, as the latter is part of our actual reality and is generally viewed with disdain..