7455 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordigan]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Also, arguably, it's not particularly useful to limit your marketing pool too greatly - there are a lot of women who play ME, even if we don't outnumber the men, and plenty of gay men as well. Ignoring our interests simply because we aren't the majority isn't the best of plans - especially considering how many straight men play ME who are neutral or supportive of f/f and m/m romance options. If they can add a little extra content and attract secondary and tertiary market populations, well, that's nothing to sneeze at.

I think Bioware's reasoning for this transcends merely wanting to please fans..

Like I said, if they want a franchise, then Shepard cannot be seen as remotely gay, because it would greatly diminish the appeal of the character.

This same logic applies to comic book heroes, leading male actors in Hollywood etc.... 

In other words, it's about money.

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 mars 2010 - 08:53 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Mordigan wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Also, arguably, it's not particularly useful to limit your marketing pool too greatly - there are a lot of women who play ME, even if we don't outnumber the men, and plenty of gay men as well. Ignoring our interests simply because we aren't the majority isn't the best of plans - especially considering how many straight men play ME who are neutral or supportive of f/f and m/m romance options. If they can add a little extra content and attract secondary and tertiary market populations, well, that's nothing to sneeze at.

I think Bioware's reasoning for this transcends merely wanting to please fans..

Like I said, if they want a franchise, then Shepard cannot be seen as remotely gay, because it would greatly diminish the appeal of the character.

This same logic applies to comic book heroes, leading male actors in Hollywood etc.... 

They've made it abundantly clear with their marketing that Sheploo is the Shepard brand they're going with - but that doesn't stop players from customizing their character extensively, and it doesn't prevent them from including s/s relationships. Having the female option does not detract from the 'straight male badass marine' brand concept, and a gay or bi MShep doesn't, either.

The problem is, Shepard isn't a comic book hero or a leading male actor. Shepard isn't even Master Chief. If they wanted a straight male protagonist they could have provided one, but they didn't. Instead, they made Shepard a variable, customizable PC. If what they wanted from the get-go was a franchise and unambiguous, identifiable 'brand' in their main character, then arguably they should have gone with exactly that.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 09:00 .

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Mordigan wrote...



In other words, it's about money.

I'm pretty aware that it's about money, which is why I mentioned markets at all. I have money. Most female gamers do. Gay male gamers also have money. I would like to give some of my money to Bioware, in exchange for a product I enjoy. This - implementing s/s romance for FemShep and MShep on par with the straight romances in ME (though better all around would be good) - would make me much more inclined to give them my money when the third title comes out. Between this issue and some others regarding gameplay, that's far from a given.

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

In other words, it's about money.

I'm pretty aware that it's about money, which is why I mentioned markets at all. I have money. Most female gamers do. Gay male gamers also have money. I would like to give some of my money to Bioware, in exchange for a product I enjoy. This - implementing s/s romance for FemShep and MShep on par with the straight romances in ME (though better all around would be good) - would make me much more inclined to give them my money when the third title comes out. Between this issue and some others regarding gameplay, that's far from a given.

But you would buy Mass Effect 3 anyway, wouldn't you? Unless there are some statistics regarding players refusing to buy games unless they have homosexual content, all we can do is speculate.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

In other words, it's about money.

I'm pretty aware that it's about money, which is why I mentioned markets at all. I have money. Most female gamers do. Gay male gamers also have money. I would like to give some of my money to Bioware, in exchange for a product I enjoy. This - implementing s/s romance for FemShep and MShep on par with the straight romances in ME (though better all around would be good) - would make me much more inclined to give them my money when the third title comes out. Between this issue and some others regarding gameplay, that's far from a given.

But you would buy Mass Effect 3 anyway, wouldn't you? Unless there are some statistics regarding players refusing to buy games unless they have homosexual content, all we can do is speculate.

As it stands? No, I probably won't.

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

As it stands? No, I probably won't.

I'm afraid it appears you are in the minority.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

As it stands? No, I probably won't.

I'm afraid it appears you are in the minority.

As opposed to...what, exactly? The hypothetically relevant minority who wouldn't buy ME3 if it included s/s content?

[cutthecameras]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

As it stands? No, I probably won't.

I'm afraid it appears you are in the minority.

Quite a few Mass Effect fans didn't buy ME2 over this...Hence why this topic is in the non-spoiler section of the forum. You need to own the game to post elsewhere.

[Collider]

cutthecameras wrote...
Quite a few Mass Effect fans didn't buy ME2 over this...

How do you figure?

[cutthecameras]

Collider wrote...

cutthecameras wrote...
Quite a few Mass Effect fans didn't buy ME2 over this...

How do you figure?

Just going by what I've seen at Fight for the Love.

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
As opposed to...what, exactly? The hypothetically relevant minority who wouldn't buy ME3 if it included s/s content?

As opposed to quite a bit of things.
Video game players.
Bioware fans or players.
Mass Effect players.

I don't have numbers. But I severely doubt that there is any detectable or significant amount of people who would not buy the game if it did not have homosexual content. I'm all for Bioware making new characters who are gay or bisexual, but I don't think that there is a large enough demand that we can detect to warrant it for the sole purpose of getting more money, as opposed to just pleasing some fans and exercising writing freedoms.

[Ninja Mage]

I would still like a gay quarian with a sexy gypsy accent

[Collider]

Mordigan wrote...
2) Western culture in general is not comfortable with the thought of masculine heroic characters being gay, as gay men in our culture are automatically stereotyped as being less masculine than straight men.

Doesn't seem to have stopped Bioware from allowing the Grey Warden in DA:O to be gay.

3) Iconic Shepard is canon regardless of what anyone wants to believe.  Bioware always refers to Shepard as male, and practically all ME related media features a male Shepard.

Really depends on what you consider to be canon. I doubt that Bioware will ever make novels, comics and other things like that that refer to Shepard's gender. But hey, who knows. Showing Shepard as male in advertisements does not establish the canon.

It would seriously affect his appeal as a central character in the ME Universe, and negatively affect the promotion of the setting.

It's not like Bioware has ever made any protagonist homosexual in any of their games. Players have a choice. It doesn't seem like you care that female shepards can be lesbians.

Just imagine what would happen if Luke Skywalker had been gay....

The Star Wars films are not video games where you can choose your love interest. No player has to do any romance whatsoever in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Collider, 05 mars 2010 - 10:25 .

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
It's not comfortable with a lot of things.  How comfortable is it with human/alien sex I wonder?

There's literally no precedent for humans to consider this. Whatsoever. So that's rather irrelevant.

[Ninja Mage]

But Romances are obviously a big part of the appeal of the game. Just because you can have a romance with female love interests, doesn't make it ok to exclude same-sex love interests and then say, ''Well, you don't HAVE to romance anyone anyway.'' That's just pandering and silly, especially since you probably romanced someone aka Tali

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
lack of inclusion of corresponding fanservice that allows for m/m action was very much a double standard, as far as I was concerned.

This not a double standard. There IS no standard to begin with. Bioware is not being discriminatory, insulting, or insensitive. Bioware does not owe the player anything except for a game.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't think it was excluded for narrative reasons. Kaidan works fine as a gay man, Ashley works fine as a lesbian (I don't consider them necessarily bi, in that they would be romanced by either FemShep or MShep depending on the game - they weren't receptive to both sexes in one game).

Every character can conceivably work as any sexuality.

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...
Just because you can have a romance with female love interests, doesn't make it ok to exclude same-sex love interests and then say, ''Well, you don't HAVE to romance anyone anyway.''

...if you're directing this towards me, I never said that. :l

That's just pandering and silly, especially since you probably romanced someone aka Tali

Read my post more carefully. I am responding to someone who gave reasons as to why there are no gay options.

[Ninja Mage]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
lack of inclusion of corresponding fanservice that allows for m/m action was very much a double standard, as far as I was concerned.

This not a double standard. There IS no standard to begin with. Bioware is not being discriminatory, insulting, or insensitive. Bioware does not owe the player anything except for a game.

I thought I was pretty clear that I don't think it was excluded for narrative reasons. Kaidan works fine as a gay man, Ashley works fine as a lesbian (I don't consider them necessarily bi, in that they would be romanced by either FemShep or MShep depending on the game - they weren't receptive to both sexes in one game).

Every character can conceivably work as any sexuality.

You're using double-speak now. You say that any character can be any sexuality , but then claim bioware wasn't being exclusionary by having a lesbian romance but not a gay one? And that Bioware doesn't owe us anything? Make up your mind. Either a character can be gay, like Kaiden, or you don't want to see it in the game because you don't like same-sex romances.

[Collider]

Mordigan wrote...
Why do you think Rowling waited until after finishing the H.P series to disclose that Dumbledore was gay?

Fairly certain that Dumbledore was hinted or confirmed to be gay before the final book was released.

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...
You're using double-speak now.

you don't know what you're talking about.

You say that any character can be any sexuality , but then claim bioware wasn't being exclusionary by having a lesbian romance but not a gay one?

What the hell do you mean by exclusionary? Don't put words in my mouth. All I said was that Bioware wasn't being homophobic or anything negative towards gays because Mass Effect does not include gay male romance.

And that Bioware doesn't owe us anything? Make up your mind. 
Either a character can be gay, like Kaiden, or you don't want to see it in the game because you don't like same-sex romances.

Wtf? I never said I had a problem with characters being gay.

Modifié par Collider, 05 mars 2010 - 10:36 .

[Ninja Mage]

Collider wrote...

[Wtf? I never said I had a problem with characters being gay.

Good, that's the whole point of this thread. But I suggest you stop advocating that no double-standard was present when there obviously was one.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

The summation of your arguments seems to be that there's no reason anyone can provide that would get you to believe that Bioware should seriously consider putting s/s romance into ME. Even when you've been supportive (new character inclusion), you've been dismissive of the idea that Bioware would or should take the requests seriously at all. Statements that we might be a consumer group that should be paid attention to are dismissed because we're not large enough (no indication of what would be), but it's more about money than it is about 'pandering to fans' (despite that being the impetus behind Tali/Garrus romances).

So, what exactly is your point? Do actually you have suggestions, or is this an just an exercise in dismantling arguments? Because it seems like all you're doing is trying to convince people here to stop posting about this issue because it, and we, aren't relevant.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2010 - 11:48 .

[Collider]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
The summation of your arguments seems to be that there's no reason anyone can provide that would get you to believe that Bioware should seriously consider putting s/s romance into ME.

Wtf? I've never said anything like that. Assuming you're talking to ME. If you aren't, then you should consider saying so.

Even when you've been supportive (new character inclusion), you've been dismissive of the idea that Bioware would or should take the requests seriously at all.

Wrong. I was dismissive of the idea that Bioware should do it to make more money.

Statements that we might be a consumer group that should be paid attention to are dismissed because we're not large enough (no indication of what would be),

The problem is that we have no indication that there is a large enough amount of people who won't buy the same if it doesn't have gay male content.

Somehow it's important that marketed MShep not be tainted by the hint of gay, but there's nothing to suggest that the variable Shep PC affects this image, or that sales would be adversely affected even if they did.

Never said this.

So, what exactly is your point? Do actually you have suggestions, or is this an just an exercise in dismantling arguments? Because it seems like all you're doing is trying to convince people here to stop posting about this issue because it, and we, aren't relevant.

Gotta love it when people see things that simply aren't there. My only point is to discuss and debate with other people, I have no real motive other than that. I never suggested that I wanted people to stop posting, I am in fact very supportive of their ability to say their opinion, considering how aligned I am with the freedom of speech.

[Ninja Mage]

Collider wrote...

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
The summation of your arguments seems to be that there's no reason anyone can provide that would get you to believe that Bioware should seriously consider putting s/s romance into ME.

Wtf? I've never said anything like that. Assuming you're talking to ME. If you aren't, then you should consider saying so.

Even when you've been supportive (new character inclusion), you've been dismissive of the idea that Bioware would or should take the requests seriously at all.

Wrong. I was dismissive of the idea that Bioware should do it to make more money.

Statements that we might be a consumer group that should be paid attention to are dismissed because we're not large enough (no indication of what would be),

The problem is that we have no indication that there is a large enough amount of people who won't buy the same if it doesn't have gay male content.

Somehow it's important that marketed MShep not be tainted by the hint of gay, but there's nothing to suggest that the variable Shep PC affects this image, or that sales would be adversely affected even if they did.

Never said this.

So, what exactly is your point? Do actually you have suggestions, or is this an just an exercise in dismantling arguments? Because it seems like all you're doing is trying to convince people here to stop posting about this issue because it, and we, aren't relevant.

Gotta love it when people see things that simply aren't there. My only point is to discuss and debate with other people, I have no real motive other than that. I never suggested that I wanted people to stop posting, I am in fact very supportive of their ability to say their opinion, considering how aligned I am with the freedom of speech.

You're being obtuse Collider. This isn't a debate thread, it's not a first amendment freedom of speech thread, it's a same sex romance thread. This is about including a same-sex romance into mass effect, not just saying you're cool with gay characters but don't want them put into the game because you don't think there's a large enough audience.

[Lightice_av]

The problem is that we have no indication that there is a large enough amount of people who won't buy the same if it doesn't have gay male content.

I don't think that anyone would have refused to buy the game if Garrus romance wasn't in it, or at least they most certainly would have made no financial impact on Bioware's sales. Still they got what they wanted because Bioware likes to please the fanbase. They want to please paying customers, to be specific; people who haven't bought the game are secondary on their list of people to please.

You're eager to say what you aren't saying, but you're far less clear in what you do want to say. It's no wonder that people draw wrong conclusions from the few things you manage to spit out. Tell in clear and concise manner where you stand, and you don't have to worry about misunderstandings or minterpretations of your intentions.