25 réponses à ce sujet

[Athenau]

For anyone who thinks shotguns are for Vanguards only, think again!  Using the claymore as your main weapon on a soldier is ridiculously fun.   You can't zoom through obstacles like a vanguard can but you get super slo'mo and a huge damage boost, plus the reload trick makes the claymore do retarded dps.  It almost feels abusive (and on insanity no less!).  

Also, once you get the shotgun ammo upgrade, the claymore gets 4-7 rounds per pickup, which is seriously a ton of ammo for a weapon that does 400 damage per shot.  

Just for fun:

5/5 shotgun upgrades, Heightened adrenaline rush, AP ammo, Commando = +285.5% damage.  Claymore base damage is ~400 per shot if all pellets hit, or 1542 damage.  If you're in melee range you can double that for 3084 damage.

The Claymore is seriously underrated for a soldier.

Modifié par Athenau, 26 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[Awesome Helmet]

nope.



revenent!



rat-a-tat-tat....opps i just beat the game.

[Firesteel]

Both are good, it just depends on your playstyle:

If you like in your face combat, claymore.

If you like a bullet hose, revnant.

If you like ultra long range combat, widow.

[_Dannok1234]

You would only notice a damage increase against Guardian/assassin level of mobs or bosses I think, would be totally pointless against normal mobs. Tho it would be interesting if with that setup Ap ammo actually becomes useful for a class that has Inferno ammo but somehow doubt it.

[Bravenu3]

What is the 'reload trick'?

[Spyndel]

There's really no such thing as "IMBA" on a single player game. There is only "cheese", and exploits.



Also, Revenant >all.

[Athenau]

I've done 2 soldier playthroughs with the Revenant so I know how powerful it is. My post was a little tongue and cheek, but I wanted to point out that a Claymore on the soldier is both a. very viable, and b. very powerful.

You would only notice a damage increase against Guardian/assassin level of mobs or bosses I think, would be totally pointless against normal mobs. Tho it would be interesting if with that setup Ap ammo actually becomes useful for a class that has Inferno ammo but somehow doubt it

Inferno is not as good as AP. I compared them both with the Revenant and there was noticeable loss in killing power (because of the health DOT rather than instant damage bonus) and inferno did not CC enough to compensate. Also Inferno's poor performance against synthetics was a major issue in mixed synth/organic fights where constantly switching between disruptor and inferno wasn't practical.

[_Dannok1234]

Why would a soldier that has disruptor ammo use inferno on synthetics? Also would be interesting to know just how many bullets the difference was.

[Kurupt87]

by synths i assume he means mechs, so robots with armour, an annoying combination if you have disruptor and inferno ammo. although the "practical" issue doesnt really swing it for me, takes about a second to switch ammo types, and about a second for the cd so you can HAR again.

i would however, agree that ap ammo on soldier is better than inferno. cc doesnt matter, you want to pop up and kill something fast, and then duck back down. with vanguard its very handy having them dance around right infront of you, because then you have cover named Blue Suns Trooper keeping you safe.

[Spyndel]

Athenau wrote...

I've done 2 soldier playthroughs with the Revenant so I know how powerful it is. My post was a little tongue and cheek, but I wanted to point out that a Claymore on the soldier is both a. very viable, and b. very powerful.

Soldiers make anything *viable*. Adrenaline Rush makes any weapon *viable*.

The point is, I think, why would you take anything other than  Revenent as a soldier?  Its pretty much the best reason to play the class, as theyre the only ones that can use it.  Sure soldiers can use Shotguns fine when the situation calls for it, but if you want to be a dedicated  sniper or close combat/shotgun specialist, there are dedicated classes that do that better.

Modifié par Spyndel, 26 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[_Dannok1234]

Kurupt87 wrote...

by synths i assume he means mechs, so robots with armour, an annoying combination if you have disruptor and inferno ammo. although the "practical" issue doesnt really swing it for me, takes about a second to switch ammo types, and about a second for the cd so you can HAR again.
i would however, agree that ap ammo on soldier is better than inferno. cc doesnt matter, you want to pop up and kill something fast, and then duck back down. with vanguard its very handy having them dance around right infront of you, because then you have cover named Blue Suns Trooper keeping you safe.

Your right, I read a bit fast, it was the mixed in with organics he was talking about. I'll have to agree that yeah you get a marginal increase in damage in those cases. But that doesn't really make AP ammo a better choice, unless of course you spec in and out of ammo powers as a soldier based on your mission. 

Just general musings here on pro's and cons and what you can do with some ammo types. 
Let's take a soldier with the following ammo powers. Warp, Disruptor and Inferno. Let's see what he loses out or gains compared to a soldier that has taken AP ammo instead.

Inferno soldier will be able to stay out of cover longer against organics because they will not shoot at him as much, it's common for enemies to clump up a bit and thus he'll hit more then one in the Inferno AOE fairly often, letting him kill them faster as they don't duck behind cover or shoot back at him forcing him to seek cover. Against enemies that regain health, the inferno ammo will ensure that they do not gain anything back should they try to hide. (which would completely overshadow the extra damage from AP) On the other hand his shots are doing slightly less damage per shot. From a Revenant it might mean he'll have to fire as much as 2-3 shots more per enemy, something the CC will give him plenty of time to do. For me, this one goes to Inferno, since it does not waste your bonus talent and any gains are so small you'll be very hard pressed to see them, and quite possibly get overall slower kill time due to cover etc. 

Against Mech's that are mixed in with organics and he doesn't bother to change ammo, he will lose out 10% against the armor, which with the revenant would be about 2 damage.70% the health damage is small(Sounds more impressive then it is), but here he will indeed need to take 2-3 shots more and does not gain anything from it, unless there are other organics near by that gets stunned. So got to agree that in some of these cases this will be a win to the AP ammo soldier, he'll save a couple of bullets per mech. However again, he's spent 10 points in order to save a couple of bullets, 10 points that could be better spent on something else. Which brings me to..

Warp ammo. Since our Inferno soldier didn't spend his bonus on AP he can take Warp ammo. Warp ammo works better then AP against collectors (If you don't mind the loss of CC from not using inferno). Rumination888 actually has a video showing how the infiltrator will use 1 shot less using Warp ammo against a Harbinger then he does using AP ammo (With the widow). So here another win for the Inferno+Warp soldier. Since AP ammo does nothing against barriers and only armor/health. 20% more damage to health from the AP ammo is completely negated by the fact that you've been doing 50% more damage to their barriers. 

Defense health ratio for most enemies appear to be 1:1. (Not counting boss types with 2 layers of defense and health)

Anyway thats my reasoning. (I don't really bother with a bonus power on a soldier usually)

[mundus66]

Spyndel wrote...

Athenau wrote...

I've done 2 soldier playthroughs with the Revenant so I know how powerful it is. My post was a little tongue and cheek, but I wanted to point out that a Claymore on the soldier is both a. very viable, and b. very powerful.

Soldiers make anything *viable*. Adrenaline Rush makes any weapon *viable*.

The point is, I think, why would you take anything other than  Revenent as a soldier?  Its pretty much the best reason to play the class, as theyre the only ones that can use it.  Sure soldiers can use Shotguns fine when the situation calls for it, but if you want to be a dedicated  sniper or close combat/shotgun specialist, there are dedicated classes that do that better.

Although i can agree with that revenant is better than claymore, its no way in hell better than widow.

[Spyndel]

mundus66 wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

Athenau wrote...

I've done 2 soldier playthroughs with the Revenant so I know how powerful it is. My post was a little tongue and cheek, but I wanted to point out that a Claymore on the soldier is both a. very viable, and b. very powerful.

Soldiers make anything *viable*. Adrenaline Rush makes any weapon *viable*.

The point is, I think, why would you take anything other than  Revenent as a soldier?  Its pretty much the best reason to play the class, as they're the only ones that can use it.  Sure soldiers can use Shotguns fine when the situation calls for it, but if you want to be a dedicated  sniper or close combat/shotgun specialist, there are dedicated classes that do that better.

Although i can agree with that revenant is better than claymore, its no way in hell better than widow.

As the best *single* all purpose weapon in the game, Revenant is far and away better for a soldier.  If you want to be a sniper, take the widow for an infiltrator, who will be able to use it better than the soldier can.

On insanity, the enemy types you can one shot with it are limited, many requiring multiple shots even from the Widow, in which case the ammo paucity becomes an issue.  Against those enemies the Widow can one shot, the upgraded Mantis is nearly as good, and only has a few less shots. 

Widow is situational, you cant base your whole game around it like you can the Revenant, which is good for every situation, and chews through any enemy in the game, effortlessly.

[edit] From a recent thread, these two vids illustrate the difference in destructive potential:
 

Modifié par Spyndel, 26 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[_Dannok1234]

Those two video's make a horrible horrible comparison. I'm not saying your wrong about the revenant. But the first video shows the soldier missing most of his shots against the first 3 enemies. (didn't watch more as it was just too much)
I mean the Vindicator does more damage per shot so the time taken to kill things is not the issue between those two, it's more about the amount of bullets you can fire before you run dry etc.

Edit: I'll go so far as to say you will kill most enemies faster using the Vindicator then you do with the Revenant, due to it's high damage per bullet and excellent accuracy allowing for perfect headshots every time. Same could probably be said of the Viper and the Revenant as well.
Don't get me wrong tho, I love the Revenant on a soldier, I think it fits so well with the class.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 26 février 2010 - 02:51 .

[thisisme8]

Kurupt87 wrote...

by synths i assume he means mechs, so robots with armour, an annoying combination if you have disruptor and inferno ammo. although the "practical" issue doesnt really swing it for me, takes about a second to switch ammo types, and about a second for the cd so you can HAR again.
i would however, agree that ap ammo on soldier is better than inferno. cc doesnt matter, you want to pop up and kill something fast, and then duck back down. with vanguard its very handy having them dance around right infront of you, because then you have cover named Blue Suns Trooper keeping you safe.

If you're playing a soldier with mercs and mechs, why not just be on Disruptor the whole time?  You'll get a damage bonus 50% of the time no matter what, and the sooner you drop shields, the sooner your Squadmates can unleash hell on them.  Mech armor doesn't last that long anyway (you know me, I take them on with Cryo Ammo which does nothing to either), and the weapon overheat is good vs. organics plus you get mechs to spazz out every now and then.

Edit:  also on mixed maps like that, there just aren't enough mechs to bother with changing ammo types.  Might as well just pistol snipe them when you see them with a pre-AP/Inferno ammo'd Carnifex.

Modifié par thisisme8, 26 février 2010 - 03:04 .

[mundus66]

Spyndel wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

Athenau wrote...

I've done 2 soldier playthroughs with the Revenant so I know how powerful it is. My post was a little tongue and cheek, but I wanted to point out that a Claymore on the soldier is both a. very viable, and b. very powerful.

Soldiers make anything *viable*. Adrenaline Rush makes any weapon *viable*.

The point is, I think, why would you take anything other than  Revenent as a soldier?  Its pretty much the best reason to play the class, as they're the only ones that can use it.  Sure soldiers can use Shotguns fine when the situation calls for it, but if you want to be a dedicated  sniper or close combat/shotgun specialist, there are dedicated classes that do that better.

Although i can agree with that revenant is better than claymore, its no way in hell better than widow.

As the best *single* all purpose weapon in the game, Revenant is far and away better for a soldier.  If you want to be a sniper, take the widow for an infiltrator, who will be able to use it better than the soldier can.

On insanity, the enemy types you can one shot with it are limited, many requiring multiple shots even from the Widow, in which case the ammo paucity becomes an issue.  Against those enemies the Widow can one shot, the upgraded Mantis is nearly as good, and only has a few less shots. 

Widow is situational, you cant base your whole game around it like you can the Revenant, which is good for every situation, and chews through any enemy in the game, effortlessly.

[edit] From a recent thread, these two vids illustrate the difference in destructive potential:
 

You didn't even have hightened adrenaline rush when you used the widow... And vs collectors you need heavy warp ammo for it to be effective. But yeah i agree in that encounter revenant is the best weapon in the game. For every encounter where enemies do not have barriers, widow is better though. And vindicator rifle ironically enough has higher dps than revenant vs anything but armor, here is where you pull out your sniper (or heavy pistol).

A soldier with hightened adrenaline rush, does much more damage with every bullet than an infiltrator. And the infiltrator can not get vindicator if he picks a widow, which is why the sniper argument is just moot. Since while he is "more effective" he has to rely more on heavy pistol or submachine gun which both have shorter range than vindicator.

I didn't say that i much rather pick widow than revenant though, since revenant is exclusive to the soldier. But it is definitely a better weapon in my book.

Edit. Those videos is basically like first posting a video of a soldier killing the geth colossus then posting a video of a vanguard using the charge trick and kill him. And then say "here is a difference in destructive power" its obvious that vanguard is better in some encounters, but i think we all can agree that overall soldier is better (or easier at least).

Modifié par mundus66, 26 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[brgillespie]

OP's simply offering a new way to play your Soldier. That's all.

[Athenau]

I don't know if the Claymore is the most efficient way to play a soldier (Revenant is tough to beat there). But shotguns have been pigeonholed as a Vanguard only weapon-class, which is silly, because adrenaline rush is an amazing power for getting up close and personal. Also saying that the Revenant is the best reason to play the class is wrong. The Revenant is beastly and all, but we all know that adrenaline rush is the real star of this show.



It's also a lot of fun.



As for the AP vs incendiary debate, if incendiary actually did reliable CC I'd take it in a heartbeat. But too often I'd unload a burst into a mook and they'll scream in pain while still shooting back. Elites hardly ever caught fire.



AP just kills faster, which ultimately means less bullets coming your way.

[rumination888]

Couple things:
You can get off 1 Widow shot per Adrenaline Rush.
5 Vindicator bursts per AR(15 ammo).
25-28 Revenant shots per AR.
I have no idea about the Claymore because I never tested it, but I'm guessing 2 with the reload trick, and it should be VERY easy to pull off in the heat of battle with Adrenline Rush.

[Kurupt87]

thisisme8 wrote...

Kurupt87 wrote...

by synths i assume he means mechs, so robots with armour, an annoying combination if you have disruptor and inferno ammo. although the "practical" issue doesnt really swing it for me, takes about a second to switch ammo types, and about a second for the cd so you can HAR again.
i would however, agree that ap ammo on soldier is better than inferno. cc doesnt matter, you want to pop up and kill something fast, and then duck back down. with vanguard its very handy having them dance around right infront of you, because then you have cover named Blue Suns Trooper keeping you safe.

If you're playing a soldier with mercs and mechs, why not just be on Disruptor the whole time?  You'll get a damage bonus 50% of the time no matter what, and the sooner you drop shields, the sooner your Squadmates can unleash hell on them.  Mech armor doesn't last that long anyway (you know me, I take them on with Cryo Ammo which does nothing to either), and the weapon overheat is good vs. organics plus you get mechs to spazz out every now and then.

Edit:  also on mixed maps like that, there just aren't enough mechs to bother with changing ammo types.  Might as well just pistol snipe them when you see them with a pre-AP/Inferno ammo'd Carnifex.

good point. its just the part of my brain that says " hez got armorz, need inferno!! hez got shieldz, need disruptor!!" is unfortunately loud. but, the mechs are generally always closer, and those damned kanine things are what i always go for first, so starting with inferno then switching to disruptor after taking down an armour or two works for me.

[ssgstank]

I swear by the Revenant MG with incendiary ammo. I have smoked every thing with it Mechs ,Geth,Colectors

[IntrepidProdigy]

Revenant + Inferno rounds/disruptor rounds + Improved Geth Shield (+10% weapon damage) + heightened adrenaline rush + using squad-mate's abilities = a hell of a lot of DPS.

[Schneidend]

Eh, just the Claymore during an Adrenaline Rush is already a powerful combo.You won't need the reload trick unless you're fighting an elite enemy like Harbinger or a Blue Suns Commando.

[ShaqH]

While Widow is the best sniper in the game, I'd rather have the Revenant + Incisor (which I do) than Vindicator + Widow

[Mordigan]

I tried using a Soldier with the Claymore, and he was nowhere near as powerful as the Vanguard was with it..



You really, really begin with appreciate charge and see how powerful it is once you use another class with this weapon, because while hardened AR has decent damage mitigation, the Soldier's slow rate of movement (in comparison with the Vanguards) and vulnerability means that it's much easier to die if you try to get up close to use the Claymore unless you're very careful.



It's workable of course, but the Soldier definitely excels more at long to midrange combat than he does at close range.