344 réponses à ce sujet

[Skeletondog]

(Long post ahead. Yes, in advance, I know I think too much, sue me.  )

When it comes to enjoying a character, (unless they're meant to be a villain,) there's usually a certain moral line that can't be crossed before it damages one's ability to actually like the character. While obviously in a brutal setting we're often willing to overlook many things we wouldn't in real life, for many of us, one thing that instantly crosses the line is rape, or sexual abuse in general.

I want to like Zevran. I really, really do. He's a wonderfully written character with some of the funniest lines in the game - and I also love that he's a romance option for gay male characters, considering how rare (almost nonexistant) that is.

But my ability to simply accept the character and remain immersed in the game at the same time is damaged by the fact that in order to do so, I have to convince myself that line hasn't been crossed.

As you get to know Zevran, twice he tells stories about being seduced by his marks (at least, presuming the two stories he tells are two different women.) And... well, when you think about it, it sounds like he basically raped them. As far as it sounds, they only had sex with him for fear of death. Just imagine if he had been the one to suggest it to them, and it becomes all the more clear - "Sleep with me and I won't kill you." They may have been the ones to suggest it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's someone sleeping with him only for fear of death.
(Something tells me this will act as a written invitation for people to try to explain why sex-to-avoid-death wouldn't be rape if it were the idea of the person about to die, but hey.)

Frankly, I get this feeling that the writers weren't really considering the weight of what Zev was describing. The way it's told, it's as if the stories are suppossed to be funny - and  there's no option to discuss or react in a way you'd expect a character to be able to react to a rapist. You can say "you used her!" as if it's on par with sleeping with someone to steal their wallet - besides that, nada.

So! Because I want to be able to enjoy this character, I try to lay it out in my head in a way that makes it not as bad as it sounds. It's not an easy task.

Maybe he's just trying to test the Warden? But he tells those stories twice, so... yeah. 

He didn't realize what he was doing? This, I find plausible - as someone who'd been tortured and brainwashed into viewing death as almost trivial and sex as always desirable, it does make sense that he might not have been able to understand at the time why someone would sleep with him if she really didn't want to. ...But really, 'he didn't realize it was rape' isn't much of a justification.

So then, I'm basically left with thinking, well, errr... ummm... okay, we don't know who these people were... maybe they weren't that afraid! Maybe they really were just calm and wily and not reluctant! ...oh, except for the part where he says that one was begging on her knees for her life before seducing him. ...Er, maybe she wasn't afraid when she thought it was working! And so uh, she really did want it, because...!

...Okay, yeah, that's difficult to swallow.

Did anyone else find this disturbing? Anyone find a better way to frame it so it's not as bad? And wtf, Bioware?

EDIT: Good lord, I was asking about Zevran, not Leliana. Please don't assume I hadn't thought about Leliana just because I'm posting about Zevran. Chill.

Modifié par Skeletondog, 26 février 2010 - 06:44 .

[krylo]

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

However, Zevran is supposed to be REDEEMABLE, and that's the key figure.

When you discover him he is a monster, there is no doubt about that, but you can 'fix' him. Lead him away from that path, and make him come out much better for it.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[errant_knight]

Y'know, I hadn't fully considered that. I mean, I went with the calm and wily even while finding it distasteful, but the way you put it, it's much worse. I'd never got as far as really examining that aspect of the character, though.

My PCs are friendly with Zevran, but not close, based on the fact that he thinks being an assassain is just fine and actively enjoys killing. They feel badly for him and want to give him a chance, but find his world view pretty disturbing.

krylo wrote...

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

However, Zevran is supposed to be REDEEMABLE, and that's the key figure.

When you discover him he is a monster, there is no doubt about that, but you can 'fix' him. Lead him away from that path, and make him come out much better for it.

Yea, that's why my PCs can never bring themselves to just kill him, and why they talk to him and give him the meaningful gifts. He's never had a chance, and he/she wants to give him one. That's also why my PC asks him to stick around at the end of the game.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[Addai]

I put it in context of Antivan culture. As Zevran tells you, assassins are considered part of the landscape, and so, apparently, is a certain sexual libertinism. It is similar, I think, to Leliana's description of Orlesian bards- the nobility seem to consider it a game. With at least one of the stories Zevran tells you, the "mark" tries to kill him (twice) during their night together, so the tables can be turned. It may be a fine point to you, but I simply can't see the use of seduction as a way to turn the tables on an assassin as equivalent to rape. To call it that minimizes rape, in my view.

What is your view of Leliana? Do you also find it as difficult to like her character? Leliana's take on her work is more chilling, in my view.  For instance, she speaks about using torture, something Zevran never mentions.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 06:14 .

[Helios969]

OP, I struggle pretty much the same way you do for the same reasons.  I'm constantly getting the Zevran disapproves -7, disapproves -3 if I question the morality of his lifestyle.  I have to force myself at times to use the "I suppose that's true," or "maybe you're right" response options.  More often than not I just use the addapproval cheat to ensure he stays loyal to the final battle.

[Jaulen]

Okay the whole 'Begging on her knees and quite aptly I may add" made me think she was trying to...persuade him in a different manner.....and his first mark, does sucessfully talk him out of killing her.....(of course after a bought of night aerobics), he doesn't kill her.

And HELLO?!?!? What about Leliana???? She's a cold blooded killer who LIKES the game of seduction, and LAUGHS about it, and uses torture. (While Zevran mentions clean kills).

I just don't get you hyprocrites who are okay with Leliana being a cold blooded seducer/killer but have an issue with Zevran.

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[SurrealSadi]

You have to look at it from Zevran's point of view. He was bought at a young age, and trained in killing and seduction. It's so ingrained in his life you have to give him the benefit of the doubt, and try and show him that while there are other ways of doing things, you won't try and convince him he's an evil, horrid person who needs to die.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

I put it in context of Antivan culture. As Zevran tells you, assassins are considered part of the landscape, and so, apparently, is a certain sexual libertinism. It is similar, I think, to Leliana's description of Orlesian bards- the nobility seem to consider it a game. With at least one of the stories Zevran tells you, the "mark" tries to kill him (twice) during their night together, so the tables can be turned. It may be a fine point to you, but I simply can't see the use of seduction as a way to turn the tables on an assassin as equivalent to rape. To call it that minimizes rape, in my view.

What is your take on Leliana? Do you also find it as difficult to like her character? Leliana's take on her work is more chilling, in my view.  For instance, she speaks about using torture, something Zevran never mentions.

Well, I don't think that comparing having sex to save your life to rape minimizes it at all, to tell you the truth. Both are sex that you wouldn't otherwise choose and are compelled to in some way. I also don't think you can put it down to culture, unless you can do the same with the Orleisian Chevalier's rape of commoners, which is spoken of at several times.

I actually have almost as big a problem with Leiliana. She does appear to show slightly more regret, though, and personally, I find her 'professional' approach unnerving, but not as disturbing as Zevran's description of his enjoyment in taking a life. She is also trying to leave that life behind, whereas Zevran can't imagine doing anything else.

Jaulen wrote...
I just don't get you hyprocrites who are okay with Leliana being a cold blooded seducer/killer but have an issue with Zevran.

Mind your manners. We don't insult each other over character disagreements. This is a discussion, not a schoolyard fight.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[Creature 1]

Skeletondog wrote...
Frankly, I get this feeling that the writers weren't really considering the weight of what Zev was describing. The way it's told, it's as if the stories are suppossed to be funny - and  there's no option to discuss or react in a way you'd expect a character to be able to react to a rapist. You can say "you used her!" as if it's on par with sleeping with someone to steal their wallet - besides that, nada.

. . .

He didn't realize what he was doing? This, I find plausible - as someone who'd been tortured and brainwashed into viewing death as almost trivial and sex as always desirable, it does make sense that he might not have been able to understand at the time why someone would sleep with him if she really didn't want to. ...But really, 'he didn't realize it was rape' isn't much of a justification.

So then, I'm basically left with thinking, well, errr... ummm... okay, we don't know who these people were... maybe they weren't that afraid! Maybe they really were just calm and wily and not reluctant! ...oh, except for the part where he says that one was begging on her knees for her life before seducing him. ...Er, maybe she wasn't afraid when she thought it was working! And so uh, she really did want it, because...!

...Okay, yeah, that's difficult to swallow.

Did anyone else find this disturbing? Anyone find a better way to frame it so it's not as bad? And wtf, Bioware?

Are you my sock puppet? 

[Helios969]

Oh no, not another Zevran versus Leliana thread. I'm outta here.

[CalJones]

He's my favourite romance, actually - though part of that is down to the fact I prefer to play male characters, but as a straight woman, I also prefer to romance males as well (and am secretly turned on by a bit of man-on-man action, heh). Zev's lines are pretty amusing, but what I like about him is the fact that he is so unrepentantly and cheerfully amoral. It's a nice change from snarling sociopaths or brooding killers who are tortured by their own guilt.

I'd not considered the rape angle - it really didn't occur to me at all, so I'm assuming the writers intended it to be more a case of a willing seduction followed by the actual murder. When you examine it more closely then there is something rather disturbing about it, but then again, it's really no different from what Leliana does - the only thing is that he doesn't try to justify it.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, if you give Zevran all his gifts, you can pick the answers telling him you don't agree and have him stay loyal.

We actually just had this discussion in another thread. There is a heavy implication that the culture in Antiva is far different than our culture, and that the Crows are part of that life, as is a sexual freedom. The sex described really doesn't seem to be for Zevran's pleasure (as weird as that sounds at first). When romancing him, once he hits adore, you do get a horrific story, but you also realize that he thinks he's giving the women one last night of pleasure -- it's not for him.

Much like when Leliana asks Alistair if it really is so bad for a man having the last night of his life in the company of a beautiful women before she kills him.  I think that both Leliana's and Zevran's approach about sex and assassination are supposed to be the same, but when it's a man, it carries different implications.

Anyway, I'm not articulate enough to really state this case, and I do find it disturbing at first glance, until I put it into the context of the game world. I'm not crazy that it is in the world, presented this way, but that's a different issue.

Edit: In case I wasn't clear, I do NOT think that Zevran is supposed to be a sociopathic rapist.  I think he's supposed to be an assassin who uses seduction as a tool.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Creature 1]

ejoslin wrote...
We actually just had this discussion in another thread.

OP joined today--it must be me! 

[Jaulen]

How can you equate being raped (unwilling sexual partner) to having sex (willingly I might add) prior to being killed? Hmm....forced sex, or chosen sex with some pleasure, maybe chance of living/killing my would be assasian, and if not, a clean quick death?

Or a being seduced and sexed by a beautuiful woman who will laugh manically as she cuts you and tortures you before she kills you.

*is this faulty memory?* But don't Zevran ADN Leliana mention that people consider it an honor to be targeted by the Orlesian Bards (flirting with danger) or the Antivian Crows (look how important I am!)?

Edit: And how is it a school yard fight to point out the hypocritical thinking of "this character is bad" because he does X, while 'this character is good/okay in my book" even though she also does X. 

Edit#2: Must be becuase Zevran is male and the targets he talks about are female. Would you still have the same take on him if he was talking about seducing men? What about Leliana? So men can't be raped?

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Creature 1]

Skeletondog wrote...
Did anyone else find this disturbing? Anyone find a better way to frame it so it's not as bad? And wtf, Bioware?

This topic came up on another thread the other day, you can read my take on it here.  Yes, it's disturbing.  Yes, it's partially a dev screwup. 

If Zevran were a real person I would stay far, far away.  Since he's fictional I think he's quite interesting, but definitely not cute and cuddly.  

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I actually have almost as big a problem with Leiliana. She does appear to show slightly more regret, though, and personally, I find her 'professional' approach unnerving, but not as disturbing as Zevran's description of his enjoyment in taking a life. She is also trying to leave that life behind, whereas Zevran can't imagine doing anything else.

Does she?  Both of them are trying to find a new life, yet the smiley matter-of-factness with which Leliana talks about seduction and torture is, to me, more chilling than Zevran's straightforward manner.  In general, the fact that she is all teddy bears and giggles, the fact that she lies to you at first about her background, and that she was not a slave but chose the life willingly make her more sinister to my mind.

About the conversation where Zevran talks about being an assassin, just try the reply that you can't see him doing anything else and see if you still think that what he is saying should be taken at face value.  He looks surprised and wounded if the Warden agrees with him.  He also expresses his regret in numerous conversations.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 06:34 .

[SurelyForth]

Jaulen wrote...

How can you equate being raped (unwilling sexual partner) to having sex (willingly I might add) prior to being killed? Hmm....forced sex, or chosen sex with some pleasure, maybe chance of living/killing my would be assasian, and if not, a clean quick death?

Or a being seduced and sexed by a beautuiful woman who will laugh manically as she cuts you and tortures you before she kills you.

*is this faulty memory?* But don't Zevran ADN Leliana mention that people consider it an honor to be targeted by the Orlesian Bards (flirting with danger) or the Antivian Crows (look how important I am!)?

When did Leliana say she tortured people? I thought she said she seduced in order to circumvent having to torture people. And I honestly doubt that she would laugh maniacally while killing. That would just ruin the mood. 

Also,  errant_knight's point is a good one- that the target may be unduly influenced to have sex because they are in a situation where their life could depend on it, which throws into question whether it's truly consensual or not.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 février 2010 - 06:37 .

[Sabriana]

Zevran: "The Antivan Crows send their regards.

Mark: Oh no. Why?

Zevran: "I do not know, but this is the way it is."

Mark: "Will you grant me one last wish?"

Zevran: "Of course."

Mark: "Give me one last night of passion."

Zevran: "But certainly."



Now, whether the targeted victim wanted it because she thought it would give her the opportunity to out-wit him or not is never clear. But his statement "you think I'm a monster?" points to her asking him for a favor. He obliges. He thinks he is doing her a favor.



The character Zevran is a slave. He has been sold to the most powerful faction in Antiva at age 7. Before that he resided in a wh*rehouse. Where he learned a 'massage technique'. A small child caught in the world of sex for sale. A small child who had no one. Ever.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...
Edit: In case I wasn't clear, I do NOT think that Zevran is supposed to be a sociopathic rapist.  I think he's supposed to be an assassin who uses seduction as a tool.  

Sociopathic rapist?  Perhaps not.

But sociopath who can't understand how his actions may be considered rape because his ability to empathize with others has been severely blunted by his upbringing and lifestyle?  Perhaps.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

How can you equate being raped (unwilling sexual partner) to having sex (willingly I might add) prior to being killed? Hmm....forced sex, or chosen sex with some pleasure, maybe chance of living/killing my would be assasian, and if not, a clean quick death?

Or a being seduced and sexed by a beautuiful woman who will laugh manically as she cuts you and tortures you before she kills you.

*is this faulty memory?* But don't Zevran ADN Leliana mention that people consider it an honor to be targeted by the Orlesian Bards (flirting with danger) or the Antivian Crows (look how important I am!)?

When did Leliana say she tortured people? I thought she said she seduced in order to circumvent having to torture people. And I honestly doubt that she would laugh maniacally while killing. That would just ruin the mood. 

Also,  errant_knight's point is a good one- that the target may be unduly influenced to have sex because they are in a situation where their life could depend on it, which throws into question whether it's truly consensual or not.

Leliana said she killed her targets cleanly whenever possible -- implication being it wasn't always possible.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The more I saw leliana's dialogue the more disturbed I was by her character. She's "repented" or whatever ... but the overall affect of her dialouges with the PC and companions is ... disturbing. In her case I think that different folks wrote her romance & the companion banter. I'm not sure that they really took into account what the overall effect of combining both was.



As for Zev ... I haven't done his romance yet ... but I had the same issue Helios did. If you even hint that you don't enjoy killing or might maybe think differently than zev as a male PC he disapproves. Between that and how hard it is to get his skills and talents where I like them after finding him it's hard for me to care for him much. I have a game going as a female mage where I'm planning on trying the romance ... but that his last shot for me. Unless I'm blown away I'm planning on just killing him in future playthroughs that I might do.

[Helios969]

Tell a woman a sad story and she's putty in your hands.

[AndreaDraco]

I can't really understand what all the fuss is about. Zevran was 'bought' - like a goods sitting on a dock, like a slave - when he was just a child by the Antivan Crows, who wanted an elf purposedly because humans find them sexually alluring. They tortured him to break him, and he resistem them at first, and he was terrified, until he finally realizes that the only way for the pain to stop is to play along. And yes, he excelled at being an assassin then, and he even describes the sense of power he associates with killing -- but, slowly but steadily, the Warden can reach out to him, get him opening a bit and actually redeem Zevran, washing away the filth of the Crows.



I can't comment on the rape issue, because, in my opinion, and please, no offense to those who believe so, the comparison is simply idiotic.

[Creature 1]

MAJOR "24" SPOILERS!!





Starting now. . .



A couple weeks on 24 Renee had sex with the Russian guy who'd previously tried to rape her and put her in the hospital. She did it because he demanded she do so, and so that she could maintain her cover (thus staying alive) and give them a better chance at finding the missing nuclear fuel rods. But the whole thing was so unpleasant I could hardly watch it and felt angry all night. Afterward she ticked him off and he took a swing at her and she stabbed him 14 times.



Ending spoilers!





So, yeah. Just because you agree to have sex with someone under pressure doesn't mean it was consensual.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I actually have almost as big a problem with Leiliana. She does appear to show slightly more regret, though, and personally, I find her 'professional' approach unnerving, but not as disturbing as Zevran's description of his enjoyment in taking a life. She is also trying to leave that life behind, whereas Zevran can't imagine doing anything else.

Does she?  Both of them are trying to find a new life, yet the smiley matter-of-factness with which Leliana talks about seduction and torture is, to me, more chilling than Zevran's straightforward manner.  In general, the fact that she is all teddy bears and giggles, the fact that she lies to you at first about her background, and that she was not a slave but chose the life willingly make her more sinister to my mind.

About the conversation where Zevran talks about being an assassin, just try the reply that you can't see him doing anything else and see if you still think that what he is saying should be taken at face value.  He looks surprised and wounded if the Warden agrees with him.  He also expresses his regret in numerous conversations.

I agree with you to an extent in that I have yet to bring myself to actually get close to Leiliana either. I have problems with both of them, but my PCs still think they deserve a chance. Both have significant issues, and it's purely a personal thing which one might consider 'worse'. I will say that the differences between then are fairly minimal when you get down to it, which is why my PCs are much closer to the other party members.