344 réponses à ce sujet

[amethyst_rose2009]

Drasanil wrote...

Quick question. if we're all so worked up about the exact consentitude of Zevran's exploits, doesn't that also make Morrigan a rapist? Depending how it plays out (ie: get Loghain or Alistair to do it), it could easily be seen as sex under duress no? Screw the sleezy Swamp Witch or you die, that's a form of rape no?

LOL, ask any Alistair fangirl and we'll tell you that Alistair was definitely raped by the swamp witch.  

[Drasanil]

krylo wrote...
Morrigan isn't the one placing the psychological force on the characters to have sex with her.  Not directly, anyway.

Really? Have you listenned to her trying to convince you to go to get Alistair or especially Loghain to go through with it? She uses plenty of psychological force. At you point you get the option to literally order Loghain to do it, after he asks you not to, how is that better?

Modifié par Drasanil, 27 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[krylo]

I'm guessing you missed my edit, so:

Edit: I would say it's rape in the same way that tripping and fatally falling down stairs is murder, and is consensual sex only in so far as the same could be called suicide. There's a dark grey area as in how 'consensual' the sex was/is, but there's no one you can really blame for it.

Also, ordering Loghain to go do it would kind of make YOU the rapist, as Loghain would, apparently, rather die.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 08:08 .

[errant_knight]

Drasanil wrote...

krylo wrote...
Morrigan isn't the one placing the psychological force on the characters to have sex with her.  Not directly, anyway.

Really? Have you listenned to her trying to convince you to go to get Alistair or especially Loghain to go through with it? She uses plenty of psychological force. At you point you get the option to literally order Loghain to do it, after he asks you not to, how is that better?

Well, Morrigan doesn't have the power to force you to do anything. If you order Loghain, or coerce Alistair with persuade, I don't think it is any better. If you take the 'you'd do it if you loved me' option, then you're into the realm of emotional blackmail. While you're not actually forcing anything, it's pretty darn repugnant. You have to pick your words very carefully in that conversation.

[Drasanil]

krylo wrote...

I'm guessing you missed my edit, so:

Oops ya, sorry.

Edit: I would say it's rape in the same way that tripping and fatally falling down stairs is murder,

How? One is as unintentional accident, the other is Morrigan willfully using the emotional hammer blow of the ultimate sacrifice revelation, and the threat of death that comes with it, to try and get sexual favors out of you or your fellow warden.

and is consensual sex only in so far as the same could be called suicide.

 
Really because every one just wants to die so badly, it seems like such fun after all. She's giving you the ultimatum sex or "involuntary" suicide, that is worse than Zevran.

There's a dark grey area as in how 'consensual' the sex was/is, but there's no one you can really blame for it.

Same could be said for Zevran, especially since he was never the one that brought up the prospect of sex, were as Morrigan did, she literally goes: sex or your life, choose! Especially given there is quite a bit of vagueness as to who was trying to use who, when Zevran was involved.

Also, ordering Loghain to go do it would kind of make YOU the rapist, as Loghain would, apparently, rather die.

It's makes you an accessory, you can order Loghain to do it all you want, but the Swamp Witch is still the one actively raping him.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

krylo wrote...
Morrigan isn't the one placing the psychological force on the characters to have sex with her.  Not directly, anyway.

Really? Have you listenned to her trying to convince you to go to get Alistair or especially Loghain to go through with it? She uses plenty of psychological force. At you point you get the option to literally order Loghain to do it, after he asks you not to, how is that better?

Well, Morrigan doesn't have the power to force you to do anything. If you order Loghain, or coerce Alistair with persuade, I don't think it is any better. If you take the 'you'd do it if you loved me' option, then you're into the realm of emotional blackmail. While you're not actually forcing anything, it's pretty darn repugnant. You have to pick your words very carefully in that conversation.

Can you actually order Loghain?  I asked him to, and he did, and thanked my warden for not ordering him.  And will an in love Alistair actually refuse?  I don't mean if the warden backs down, but if the warden keeps asking him to do it, I don't think he'll refuse.

[Drasanil]

After he asks you to not to make him do this, you can either drop it, use the persuade check and "not order" him to do it, or flat out tell him to do it, I never tried the last option though.

[krylo]

Drasanil wrote...

krylo wrote...

I'm guessing you missed my edit, so:

Oops ya, sorry.

Edit: I would say it's rape in the same way that tripping and fatally falling down stairs is murder,

How? One is as unintentional accident, the other is Morrigan willfully using the emotional hammer blow of the ultimate sacrifice revelation, and the threat of death that comes with it, to try and get sexual favors out of you or your fellow warden.

and is consensual sex only in so far as the same could be called suicide.

 
Really because every one just wants to die so badly, it seems like such fun after all. She's giving you the ultimatum sex or "involuntary" suicide, that is worse than Zevran.

There's a dark grey area as in how 'consensual' the sex was/is, but there's no one you can really blame for it.

Same could be said for Zevran, especially since he was never the one that brought up the prospect of sex, were as Morrigan did, she literally goes: sex or your life, choose! Especially given there is quite a bit of vagueness as to who was trying to use who, when Zevran was involved.

Also, ordering Loghain to go do it would kind of make YOU the rapist, as Loghain would, apparently, rather die.

It's makes you an accessory, you can order Loghain to do it all you want, but the Swamp Witch is still the one actively raping him.

Morrigan isn't threatening you with death, and she's not saying that if you don't have sex with her, SHE won't kill you.

Now, if Morrigan knew a ritual that could save your life WITHOUT the sex, THEN it would be rape.  As that, so far as we know, the only way to save The Warden's life involves a newly conceived Warden baby (which obviously means sex with one of them), Morrigan isn't comitting rape.  It's just that sex with her really IS the only way to make sure no one dies.

It doesn't compare to Zevran because he IS the one who would be killing those women if they didn't have sex with him.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 08:27 .

[ejoslin]

Drasanil wrote...

After he asks you to not to make him do this, you can either drop it, use the persuade check and "not order" him to do it, or flat out tell him to do it, I never tried the last option though.

Hmmmm, must be a femwarden thing?  Because he didn't ask my character not to make him do it -- he agreed and thanked her for not ordering him.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

Morrigan isn't threatening you with death, and she's not saying that if you don't have sex with her, SHE won't kill you.

Now, if Morrigan knew a ritual that could save your life WITHOUT the sex, THEN it would be rape.  As that, so far as we know, the only way to save The Warden's life involves a newly conceived Warden baby (which obviously means sex with one of them), Morrigan isn't comitting rape.  It's just that sex with her really IS the only way to make sure no one dies.

It doesn't compare to Zevran because he IS the one who would be killing those women if they didn't have sex with him.

Nono, he's murdering them either way.  That's what he was sent to do.  

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

Morrigan isn't threatening you with death, and she's not saying that if you don't have sex with her, SHE won't kill you.

Now, if Morrigan knew a ritual that could save your life WITHOUT the sex, THEN it would be rape.  As that, so far as we know, the only way to save The Warden's life involves a newly conceived Warden baby (which obviously means sex with one of them), Morrigan isn't comitting rape.  It's just that sex with her really IS the only way to make sure no one dies.

It doesn't compare to Zevran because he IS the one who would be killing those women if they didn't have sex with him.

Nono, he's murdering them either way.  That's what he was sent to do.  

Not the first one!

But yes, I meant more in their minds.

Poor wording.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

krylo wrote...
Morrigan isn't the one placing the psychological force on the characters to have sex with her.  Not directly, anyway.

Really? Have you listenned to her trying to convince you to go to get Alistair or especially Loghain to go through with it? She uses plenty of psychological force. At you point you get the option to literally order Loghain to do it, after he asks you not to, how is that better?

Well, Morrigan doesn't have the power to force you to do anything. If you order Loghain, or coerce Alistair with persuade, I don't think it is any better. If you take the 'you'd do it if you loved me' option, then you're into the realm of emotional blackmail. While you're not actually forcing anything, it's pretty darn repugnant. You have to pick your words very carefully in that conversation.

Can you actually order Loghain?  I asked him to, and he did, and thanked my warden for not ordering him.  And will an in love Alistair actually refuse?  I don't mean if the warden backs down, but if the warden keeps asking him to do it, I don't think he'll refuse.

I can't say for sure about Loghain. I never let him live, so I'm just going on what other people have said. I'm guessing there are the same range of responses as in the Alistair discussion.

With Alistair, that gets pretty grey, but if it's not written so there's any possibility of him saying no, it's kind of out of your control. All I can do is make sure I  stay away from directly coercive statements. It would be nice if Alistair didn't go directly to Redcliff and there was some way to ****** him off enough to give him more free will before that conversation, but I don't think there is. The thing is, from a programming standpoint, I don't know how you'd truly give an NPC free will. The best you could do is base the decision on in game actions or add an element of randomness. They're going to do what they're programmed to do, no matter what. In any case, I try to pick statements that give him all the information he needs to make the decision and leave it up to him as though the programming allowed for it. That's really all I can do.

[maxernst]

I came across a Youtube video of the post-coronation Alistair talking about being saved by the Dark Ritual and I was really struck by how much anger he had toward Morrigan. In my game, he didn't have any idea how we had survived and when I told him "Morrigan saved me" he just said "I might have known" and asked if I knew where she'd gone. I didn't get the good riddance comment.



So...based on his reaction, even after it saved his life, it seems to me that he definitely felt violated.

[amethyst_rose2009]

maxernst wrote...

I came across a Youtube video of the post-coronation Alistair talking about being saved by the Dark Ritual and I was really struck by how much anger he had toward Morrigan. In my game, he didn't have any idea how we had survived and when I told him "Morrigan saved me" he just said "I might have known" and asked if I knew where she'd gone. I didn't get the good riddance comment.

So...based on his reaction, even after it saved his life, it seems to me that he definitely felt violated.

Wow, really?   I've never gotten that response from him.  In my game he asks where she is and seems concerned about Morrigan.

[Drasanil]

Cleared out a bit of quote spam.

krylo wrote...

Morrigan isn't threatening you with death, and she's not saying that if you don't have sex with her, SHE won't kill you.

Yes she is threatening you with death, she says if you don't have sex with her one of you will die, that she doesn't take a knife to your throat immediately afterwords is irrelevant.

Now, if Morrigan knew a ritual that could save your life WITHOUT the sex, THEN it would be rape.

  

How? Even if it could be done with out knocking boots, she wouldn't offier it because her primary goal is to get a god-babby out of the warden. Further more the point is she was trying to pry sex out of you under duress in order to fufil her needs and given all the philosophical jargon you brought up earlier about what constitutes consent, you think you could see that, or is it different because Morrigan has a nice set of pixillated ****** and Zevran doesn't?

As that, so far as we know, the only way to save The Warden's life involves a newly conceived Warden baby (which obviously means sex with one of them), Morrigan isn't comitting rape.  It's just that sex with her really IS the only way to make sure no one dies.

Duress is duress, either have sex with her or be forced into committing "suicide".

It doesn't compare to Zevran because he IS the one who would be killing those women if they didn't have sex with him.

First of all as far as the mage is concerned it's pretty obvious she was using sex as a weapon against him, and she succeeded too, it was only luck that kept Zevran from returning to crows with out having completed his mission and likely getting killed for it.

Secondly Zevran never offers sex in exchange for their lives, given what we know about the crows and the people of Antiva, the second victim must have surely been aware that sex wouldn't spare her life, a master never drops a contract, which means she was likely perfectly aware of what she was doing and using sex as a means to try and kill Zevran before he kills her, Zevran was just playing her game as opposed to carrying out the job right away.

[maxernst]

I looked at another one of those on Youtube. Maybe it makes a difference if you're in a romance with him, because he didn't say good riddance in the romantic one.

[amethyst_rose2009]

maxernst wrote...

I looked at another one of those on Youtube. Maybe it makes a difference if you're in a romance with him, because he didn't say good riddance in the romantic one.

That might explain it then.  My pc ended the game in a romance with him and I had talked him into doing the dark ritual with Morrigan.

[ejoslin]

Drasanil wrote...

Secondly Zevran never offers sex in exchange for their lives, given what we know about the crows and the people of Antiva, the second victim must have surely been aware that sex wouldn't spare her life, a master never drops a contract, which means she was likely perfectly aware of what she was doing and using sex as a means to try and kill Zevran before he kills her, Zevran was just playing her game as opposed to carrying out the job right away.

Or as a last fling before she died -- which clearly is how he took it (edit: and probably was expected and the norm in Antiva).  You could say the same about the mage as well, actually, who may have been more experienced in the game than he was.

Edit: And ugh, I promised myself I was out of this conversation . . .

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[errant_knight]

Drasanil wrote...

krylo wrote...
Morrigan isn't threatening you with death, and she's not saying that if you don't have sex with her, SHE won't kill you.

Yes she is threatening you with death, she says if you don't have sex with her one of you will die, that she doesn't take a knife to your throat immediately afterwords is irrelevant.

Well, no. She's stating a fact. If someone doesn't do the ritual, someone will die. There's no arguing with that. She's offering you a way out, not creating the situation. She states her opinion forecefully, but she doen't have any power to persuade the PC. It's entirely up to you.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[Drasanil]

errant_knight wrote...
Well, no. She's stating a fact. If someone doesn't do the ritual, someone will die. There's no arguing with that. She's offering you a way out, not creating the situation. She states her opinion forecefully, but she doen't have any power to persuade the PC. It's entirely up to you.

You're missing the point: she is using the threat of death to get sex and dress it up how ever you want that is duress, that the Warden's life is spared in the bargain only makes things easier for her. Her goal never was to save your life, her goal was to get a god-babby out of you, that it saves your life is only a happy coincidence she uses to her advantage.

[krylo]

But the fact that she didn't create the situation in which your life is in danger is the very thing that makes it different.



Also: Bacon salt is pretty good, but I don't suggest it on liverwurst sandwiches, as a slight aside.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

But the fact that she didn't create the situation in which your life is in danger is the very thing that makes it different.

Also: Bacon salt is pretty good, but I don't suggest it on liverwurst sandwiches, as a slight aside.

Well, you could also say that Zevran didn't create the situation of why his mark was in danger either . . .

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

But the fact that she didn't create the situation in which your life is in danger is the very thing that makes it different.

Also: Bacon salt is pretty good, but I don't suggest it on liverwurst sandwiches, as a slight aside.

Well, you could also say that Zevran didn't create the situation of why his mark was in danger either . . .

That'd be stretching things pretty far, however, and the amount of involvement in the threat on the mark's life is just not comparable.

[Nonvita]

Pardon me for asking, but what is there to be gained from arguing this anymore? David said specifically that Zevran was not committing rape, and I think it's a little absurd to start accusing Morrigan of it. What does it really add to the story or characters to accuse them of it?

[Drasanil]

krylo wrote...
But the fact that she didn't create the situation in which your life is in danger is the very thing that makes it different.

You're right she didn't create the situation. How ever, she knew of what was coming well before you did and never thought to mention it, her entire purpose in accompanying you revolved around said situation, she did her very best to exploit you to her own advantage, and made sure you were at your most vulnerable when doing so.

There's no defending her on this honestly, and that you're trying your very best to do so, is frankly wierd. So I'll ask you again is it different because she's a chick or what?