344 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

David Gaider wrote...
She initiated sex because she thought she could manipulate him with it. She knew she was in trouble, and she knew he was the assassin sent after her. She was using the weapon she had at her disposal. She was also quite successful, as it turns out.

How is the part I bolded part not duress?

All sex that occurs outside of a pleasant exchange of phone numbers is not rape. Rape is an act of violence, whether it is physical or not. Zevran did not force himself on her. You may not think he's the most upstanding guy for agreeing to have sex with her instead of gutting her like he was supposed to, but a rapist? Sorry, I won't accept that. Even in a modern court, the circumstances absolutely do matter.

I never said it was. And what is meant by "violence"? Violating the person may not be as bad as violating the psyche. The very fact that the only way she could save her life was through sex paints a much grayer moral picture than you claim. As for Zevran being a rapist, I never claimed he would go to jail for 20 years for it. What I do claim is that she did something she wouldn't have done if she thought Zevran would kill her anyway.

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, David, although I'm afraid it's coming across that way. I never claimed that Zevran is painted black and white as a rapist. What I am claiming is that his actions are morally questionable and difficult to justify. I don't believe that Zevran is a cookie-cutter Chaotic Evil character any more than I believe he's rainbows and sunshine. He's gray. He's difficult to figure out. Sometimes it's not worth figuring him out. These are characters BioWare created, and yet I don't think you understand the interpretation many of us have.You wrote a character that is open for interpretation. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but only to get where some of us are coming from.

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

However, don't expect further responses from me on this point, as this is far too hefty a subject to be getting into on a videogame board.  Though I suppose its eventual inclusion into this debate was a foregone conclusion, or should have been.

Then I will simply say that I wasn't referring simply to judicial rulings. Men who are accused of rape, sexual harassment, etc. can find it impossible to find employment, are treated very badly by those around them, and genuinely face challenges in every aspect of life regardless of whether or not they are convicted. For someone who is innocent, that is devastating. I am a female, so of course I am concerned about protecting women from situations like these (and don't think I'm not aware that hundreds of rapes are reported each year at my college, most of which occur between friends or acquaintances). However, like I said, not all women are innocent, and a fair number will exploit their status as females in order to get sympathy.

And with that, I've said my share. Thank you for responding, David, and I hope everyone can rest a little easier now.

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, he had sex with her (the ****** thing is conjured out of thin air, honestly), but it was at her initiation. He was not there to make her have sex with him, he was there to kill her. You can decide for yourself whether you think that's better or worse -- I would say worse. The fact that he consented to have sex with her, knowing what her game was, does not constitute rape anywhere other than in the privileged modern mindset.

I'm glad we clarified the oral sex part.  I was starting to think I had missed something really obvious.

I also do not understand, and after 9-some pages I guess I never will, why people insist on drawing up a continuum of whether it is better for Zevran to simply have killed the woman outright, had sex with her then killed her, had sex with her in order to kill her... I guess the only situation we haven't discussed is necrophilia...  I gather that there is the idea that he was sexually aroused by his work or that he saw sexually abusing his victims as a perk of the job.  That is not how I read the character, nor do I see where people get this in the game, hence why this discussion is so baffling and (because I do like the character) frustrating.

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, he had sex with her (the ****** thing is conjured out of thin air, honestly), but it was at her initiation. He was not there to make her have sex with him, he was there to kill her. You can decide for yourself whether you think that's better or worse -- I would say worse. The fact that he consented to have sex with her, knowing what her game was, does not constitute rape anywhere other than in the privileged modern mindset.

I'm glad we clarified the oral sex part.  I was starting to think I had missed something really obvious.

I also do not understand, and after 9-some pages I guess I never will, why people insist on drawing up a continuum of whether it is better for Zevran to simply have killed the woman outright, had sex with her then killed her, had sex with her in order to kill her... I guess the only situation we haven't discussed is necrophilia...  I gather that there is the idea that he was sexually aroused by his work or that he saw sexually abusing his victims as a perk of the job.  That is not how I read the character, nor do I see where people get this in the game, hence why this discussion is so baffling and (because I do like the character) frustrating.

I think a lot of the people who see Zevran very badly haven't fully explored the character.  When you first talk to Zev, he does come off a bit terrifying.  lol  Because he is already representing something people fear, it's easy for people to expect the worst and project other fears onto the character.  However, if they explore the character fully, they might be surprised at the good in the character.  You'd never expect the chearful assassin to be capable of compassion and regret, loyalty and self-sacrafice, but he clearly is.  Shame some people never get far enough with him to realize that.

[Bootsykk]

EccentricSage wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, he had sex with her (the ****** thing is conjured out of thin air, honestly), but it was at her initiation. He was not there to make her have sex with him, he was there to kill her. You can decide for yourself whether you think that's better or worse -- I would say worse. The fact that he consented to have sex with her, knowing what her game was, does not constitute rape anywhere other than in the privileged modern mindset.

I'm glad we clarified the oral sex part.  I was starting to think I had missed something really obvious.

I also do not understand, and after 9-some pages I guess I never will, why people insist on drawing up a continuum of whether it is better for Zevran to simply have killed the woman outright, had sex with her then killed her, had sex with her in order to kill her... I guess the only situation we haven't discussed is necrophilia...  I gather that there is the idea that he was sexually aroused by his work or that he saw sexually abusing his victims as a perk of the job.  That is not how I read the character, nor do I see where people get this in the game, hence why this discussion is so baffling and (because I do like the character) frustrating.

I think a lot of the people who see Zevran very badly haven't fully explored the character.  When you first talk to Zev, he does come off a bit terrifying.  lol  Because he is already representing something people fear, it's easy for people to expect the worst and project other fears onto the character.  However, if they explore the character fully, they might be surprised at the good in the character.  You'd never expect the chearful assassin to be capable of compassion and regret, loyalty and self-sacrafice, but he clearly is.  Shame some people never get far enough with him to realize that.

Agreed. That, and he comes off as a pig, an ass with an inflated ego, and just a dickwad.

If you don't give him a chance though, you don't get to see that theres more to a book than it's cover. Even if you don't want to romance him, you can easily become his friend and discover that he's quite polite in not bothering you about sex and can pretty much be the PC's rock.
My first playthrough I didn't really like him at first, but I was patient and declined his advances and found exactly that: he's quite compassionate and loyal. It was so hard to not romance him and finish the game with Alistair

EDIT: Upon reading into this forum, I'm starting to wonder if this comment is even well placed into the argument. It seems we're starting to get into politics, so please, disregard the above. <_<

Modifié par Juneya, 28 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...



I guess the only situation we haven't discussed is necrophilia...

Well sometimes you just want to sit back and pop open a co... yeah, ok, I'm not gonna go there.

I gather that there is the idea that he was sexually aroused by his work or that he saw sexually abusing his victims as a perk of the job.  That is not how I read the character, nor do I see where people get this in the game, hence why this discussion is so baffling and (because I do like the character) frustrating.

Wait what?

I never said, nor meant to imply that.  Why you infer it I do not know.  It was always my argument that Zevran's intentions were just as others said--to give a last night of pleasure, or that he was seduced.  My only argument was that such intentions may not have had the outcome he thought in so far as the women are concerned.  That his crimes were committed out of naivette not malice.

Zevran always was/will be the charming young elf with a remorseless killing streak to me.  Not some... sadistic rapist who takes pleasure in the pain of women.

BUT, as I said already--I'm assuming from Gaider's last post that the women were not in a state of extreme (or perhaps any) fear at the time of their seduction of Zevran, and were thinking clearly.  Which would make it consensual if rather grayish sex.

Juneya wrote...


Agreed. That, and he comes off as a pig, an ass with an inflated ego, and just a dickwad.

I thought he was kinda cute and funny...  Kind of reminds me of myself.  

I don't think you'd like me very much in person if you think all that of Zevran.

Juneya wrote...


please, disregard the above. <_<

Actually, the conversation going back that direction probably wouldn't be bad for now.

Unless Monica wants to continue to argue, I'm going to assume that David's (can I call you David, Ser Gaider?  How about Dave?) last bit means that the women Zevran were with were suitably 'hardened' (to steal a game term) to the point that there was less fear involved in their decisions and more manipulation.

If that argument does strike up again, however, I'll probably get back into it.  I do, as I said, love my intellectual games.

Modifié par krylo, 28 février 2010 - 09:21 .

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

I never said, nor meant to imply that.  Why you infer it I do not know.  It was always my argument that Zevran's intentions were just as others said--to give a last night of pleasure, or that he was seduced.  My only argument was that such intentions may not have had the outcome he thought in so far as the women are concerned.  That his crimes were committed out of naivette not malice.

Did I dream the pages and pages of people insisting he was a rapist?    Never mind, I'm not trying to stir anything up.  I think there were definitions of rapist being tossed around and that is part of the difficulty.

BUT, as I said already--I'm assuming from Gaider's last post that the women were not in a state of extreme (or perhaps any) fear at the time of their seduction of Zevran, and were thinking clearly.  Which would make it consensual if rather grayish sex.

Yes, as I said way upthread, this is how I saw it- that they were all playing a game to which they all knew the rules and, given that these were women moving in circles of power in Antiva, had consented to play.  I know that I would not have the presence of mind, in the face of an assassin, to either plan an elaborate escape ruse or quote poetry.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

krylo wrote...

I never said, nor meant to imply that.  Why you infer it I do not know.  It was always my argument that Zevran's intentions were just as others said--to give a last night of pleasure, or that he was seduced.  My only argument was that such intentions may not have had the outcome he thought in so far as the women are concerned.  That his crimes were committed out of naivette not malice.

Did I dream the pages and pages of people insisting he was a rapist?    Never mind, I'm not trying to stir anything up.  I think there were definitions of rapist being tossed around and that is part of the difficulty.

You did not!

However, I said a few times that I believed him to be ignorant of what he did--and therein laid its justifiability (is that a word?)  I even used the exact wording of naivette in one of the pages closer to this one.

Saying he raped a woman out of naivette of the repurcussions of his actions/her feelings is a far cry from saying he was being a sadistic monster, and I always meant the former.  How else could I have claimed to like him so many times?

[EccentricSage]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

krylo wrote...

I never said, nor meant to imply that.  Why you infer it I do not know.  It was always my argument that Zevran's intentions were just as others said--to give a last night of pleasure, or that he was seduced.  My only argument was that such intentions may not have had the outcome he thought in so far as the women are concerned.  That his crimes were committed out of naivette not malice.

Did I dream the pages and pages of people insisting he was a rapist?    Never mind, I'm not trying to stir anything up.  I think there were definitions of rapist being tossed around and that is part of the difficulty.

You did not!

However, I said a few times that I believed him to be ignorant of what he did--and therein laid its justifiability (is that a word?)  I even used the exact wording of naivette in one of the pages closer to this one.

Saying he raped a woman out of naivette of the repurcussions of his actions/her feelings is a far cry from saying he was being a sadistic monster, and I always meant the former.  How else could I have claimed to like him so many times?

"justification", perhaps?

lol  This thread will now disolve into a big happy Zevran loving family like the 'romantic apeal' thread. 

I think you just frustrated people, and people started to get confused since some of the other posters arguing that it's rape were ether less tactful or Zev haters.  Everyone was caught up in the heat of debate. 

[AndreaDraco]

krylo wrote...
BUT, as I said already--I'm assuming from Gaider's last post that the women were not in a state of extreme (or perhaps any) fear at the time of their seduction of Zevran, and were thinking clearly.  Which would make it consensual if rather grayish sex.

[...]

Unless Monica wants to continue to argue, I'm going to assume that David's (can I call you David, Ser Gaider?  How about Dave?) last bit means that the women Zevran were with were suitably 'hardened' (to steal a game term) to the point that there was less fear involved in their decisions and more manipulation.

I'm glad to hear this

The key point, for me, has always been the 'game'. These marks of Zevran were meddling in politcs, and by this meddling the caught the attention of the Antivan Crows. This fact alone is enough to discard the theory that they were helpless victims to begin with, and, as such, I always saw them as manipulative individuals, using sex to take advantage of Zevran, a thing they were vastly successful at, as David said.

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...
Unless Monica wants to continue to argue, I'm going to assume that David's (can I call you David, Ser Gaider?  How about Dave?) last bit means that the women Zevran were with were suitably 'hardened' (to steal a game term) to the point that there was less fear involved in their decisions and more manipulation.

If that argument does strike up again, however, I'll probably get back into it.  I do, as I said, love my intellectual games.

I'm not going to continue to argue, but I will continue to disagree that offering sex or the promise of sex as a way to save your life is still duress and still makes the situation far more gray. The only reason I continue to claim that is because we only have one perspective on what life is like in Antiva and only one perspective of his attempt to kill the mage. That puts me closer to your interpretation of naivette on Zevran's part, but I think I'm drawing a harder line.

[AndreaDraco]

This is not entirely true: Master Ignacio has something to say about Antiva, as does the Codex entry for this country. The idea of a nation swamped in political intrigue is pretty clear.

[Monica21]

AndreaDraco wrote...

This is not entirely true: Master Ignacio has something to say about Antiva, as does the Codex entry for this country. The idea of a nation swamped in political intrigue is pretty clear.

Master Ignacio's perspective is not unlike Zevran's though, not to mention he's a Crow and had similar experiences. Makes it hardly worth asking. I'll have to reread the Codex entry, but my point about the "one perspective" is that we only have Zevran's with regard to the mage. We don't know if this was every day life or something unexpected and immediate.

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par Monica21, 28 février 2010 - 03:36 .

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

This is not entirely true: Master Ignacio has something to say about Antiva, as does the Codex entry for this country. The idea of a nation swamped in political intrigue is pretty clear.

Master Ignacio's perspective is not unlike Zevran's though, not to mention he's a Crow and had similar experiences. Makes it hardly worth asking. I'll have to reread the Codex entry, but my point about the "one perspective" is that we only have Zevran's with regard to the mage. We don't know if this was every day life or something unexpected and immediate.

Edited for clarity.

Well, if you don't discount what Master Ignacio says, it's an every day way of life.  

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
Well, if you don't discount what Master Ignacio says, it's an every day way of life.  

And since the only two Antivans you meet in the game are both Crows, I'm sure their perspective isn't skewed, right?

[ejoslin]

Well, the HN also has an Antivan SiL who says, jokingly, that Antivan women kill with kindness and poison.



The thing is, Ignacio makes Antiva sound far more dangerous than Zevran does. When asked, Zevran focuses on the good things, whereas Ignacio focuses on how violent it is.

[Monica21]

Anyway, since I said I wasn't going to continue to argue, I won't. My posts on these last two pages indicate my feelings regarding the situation.

[ejoslin]

changed my mind about this comment.  I need to stay out of the conversation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[Drax_Lyonsbane]

David Gaider wrote...
She initiated sex because she thought she could manipulate him with it.

Exactly so.
I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the BioWare Ladies wrote that bit or had a hand in it.

This topic begs some questions about Anora?
By marrying the King was she a victim of rape also?
Given what Eamon said of her, eyelash batting and all, was she willingly  raped by Allistar/PC also if she is allowed to rule?
Perhaps sex was just a necessary evil to her, a means to an end if you will?

This topic is at least as silly as the stinky panties topic.

Hint for the willingly naive,
There has never been nor will there ever be a female who does not use sex or the promise of sex to manipulate a man. It is the very nature of the beast.

Modifié par Drax_Lyonsbane, 28 février 2010 - 04:58 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Drax_Lyonsbane wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
She initiated sex because she thought she could manipulate him with it.

Exactly so.
I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the BioWare Ladies wrote that bit or had a hand in it.

This topic begs some questions about Anora?
By marrying the King was she a victim of rape also?
Given what Eamon said of her, eyelash batting and all, was she willingly  raped by Allistar/PC also if she is allowed to rule?
Perhaps sex was just a necessary evil to her, a means to an end if you will?

This topic is at least as silly as the stinky panties topic.

Hint for the willingly naive,
There has never been nor will there ever be a female who does not use sex or the promise of sex to manipulate a man. It is the very nature of the beast.

Exactly.  And for those who rush quickly to defend certain points of contention with Morrigan's nonsense, as being part of the "real world," they would do well to consider the above fact.  Most men are OK with it BTW; it's not a condemnation by any means.  It just simply is what it is.

Having said that.  Zevran is every bit as redeemable as Loghain.  When his background is placed into perspective (Antivan culture, son of a prostitute, rasied in a brothel, treated as an object for sale, groomed to kill since age 7), I think there are certain mitigating factors to be found when judging his personality. 

If you explore him to the very end (I did this as his friend only), his confession about his final mission (which was heart wrenching for me to hear, because it caught me completely off guard) and the despair he felt for what he had done, which led him to seek his own death, I believe you see a man who is not a sociopath, but perhaps in possession of a conscience that is either malformed or not fully formed. 

Zevran's confession clearly demonstrates that he is capable of love and regret.  These are hardly the marks of a sociopath.  They are however the marks of someone worthy of redemption.  His unquestioned loyalty to you at the end is nothing to regard lightly either.

BTW, I could not stand him on my first two playthroughs, even executed him on sight the second time.  I had no idea how much I would consider him a friend until I explored him to the very end.

[ejoslin]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Exactly.  And for those who rush quickly to defend certain points of contention with Morrigan's nonsense, as being part of the "real world," they would do well to consider the above fact.  Most men are OK with it BTW; it's not a condemnation by any means.  It just simply is what it is.

Having said that.  Zevran is every bit as redeemable as Loghain.  When his background is placed into perspective (Antivan culture, son of a prostitute, rasied in a brothel, treated as an object for sale, groomed to kill since age 7), I think there are certain mitigating factors to be found when judging his personality. 

If you explore him to the very end (I did this as his friend only), his confession about his final mission (which was heart wrenching for me to hear, because it caught me completely off guard) and the despair he felt for what he had done, which led him to seek his own death, I believe you see a man who is not a sociopath, but perhaps in possession of a conscience that is either malformed or not fully formed. 

Zevran's confession clearly demonstrates that he is capable of love and regret.  These are hardly the marks of a sociopath.  They are however the marks of someone worthy of redemption.  His unquestioned loyalty to you at the end is nothing to regard lightly either.

BTW, I could not stand him on my first two playthroughs, even executed him on sight the second time.  I had no idea how much I would consider him a friend until I explored him to the very end.

I am quoting this is full because I like it SO much.  

The sex was initiated by the target, not by Zevran.  

About Zevran's redemption, he actually heals a lot faster (you hear about the final mission FAR earlier) and more completely as well when romanced.  Not to say that he needs to be romanced to heal, but given that all he really needs is someone who shows him decency for the first time in his life, it's remarkably easy to make him loyal.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[Drax_Lyonsbane]

Most men are OK with it BTW; it's not a condemnation by any means.

Most certainly.
In fact, men who can think ahead further than the length of their...nose, are positively giddy at the prospect.
To have a woman consider that we could be trusted while she is the her most vulnerable, why there is nothing we wouldn't sacrifice in order to prove she is right.

Not to say that he needs to be romanced to heal, but given that all he really needs is someone who shows him decency for the first time in his life, it's remarkably easy to make him loyal.

Hmm. I think of Zev as someone who is amoral. The Crows only wanted to raise good assasins, not good people.
Once he was shown the value of mercy and friendship he then could compare and choose. I killed him the first three time just on general principal. Now, he is one of the most loyal companions, at least in my endings.

[TheComfyCat]

David Gaider wrote...

All sex that occurs outside of a pleasant exchange of phone numbers is not rape. Rape is an act of violence, whether it is physical or not. Zevran did not force himself on her. You may not think he's the most upstanding guy for agreeing to have sex with her instead of gutting her like he was supposed to, but a rapist? Sorry, I won't accept that. Even in a modern court, the circumstances absolutely do matter.

This is an important point. Serial rapists have various reasons for raping women, and most of these reasons have little to do with sex, and more to do with power and violence as a means of gratification and/or degradation. Zevran is not just going around raping women to degrade them, nor can he only find gratification from violence.

Zevran points out at one point that elves make useful assassins because humans find them attractive, which indicates that part of his training, and thus his career, involved the seduction of his marks in order to get close enough to kill them. In the cases where the mark initiated sex to try to spare themselves, perhaps he felt it at least brought them pleasure before the end (since, at least after his second mission, he had no intention of sparing them just because of sex).

It seems likely, given what's revealed of Antivan society, that his marks are neither innocent, nor unaware that the Crows might have open contracts on them. If Zevran wasn't the one chosen to kill them, another Crow would (after all, Crows always fulfill their contracts). Obviously Zevran is a person with a rather dark past, but I really wouldn't consider him a rapist.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
I am quoting this is full because I like it SO much.  

The sex was initiated by the target, not by Zevran.  

About Zevran's redemption, he actually heals a lot faster (you hear about the final mission FAR earlier) and more completely as well when romanced.  Not to say that he needs to be romanced to heal, but given that all he really needs is someone who shows him decency for the first time in his life, it's remarkably easy to make him loyal.

I'm not sure why I came back into this thread, but here I am and the bolded part makes me glad I don't have children. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that no one sees any gray in this but me, but I am. There is a world of difference between initiating sex and desiring sex. Did she initiate it because she had to save her own life or because "omg teh assassin is hawt and I must have him." I really doubt it's the latter, and that puts this firmly in the gray area.

Blah blah blah, I'm going to go watch hockey.

Modifié par Monica21, 28 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Sabriana]

If she hadn't initiated it, he would just have done his job and killed her. No sex. Just the business. They were targeted by the Crows, who aren't known for their sweet disposition and mercy.