344 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Sabriana wrote...

If she hadn't initiated it, he would just have done his job and killed her. No sex. Just the business. They were targeted by the Crows, who aren't known for their sweet disposition and mercy.

Kinda my point. She did it to get away. She ultimately failed, but that's why she initiated it.

[ejoslin]

Drax_Lyonsbane wrote...

Most men are OK with it BTW; it's not a condemnation by any means.

Most certainly.
In fact, men who can think ahead further than the length of their...nose, are positively giddy at the prospect.
To have a woman consider that we could be trusted while she is the her most vulnerable, why there is nothing we wouldn't sacrifice in order to prove she is right.

Not to say that he needs to be romanced to heal, but given that all he really needs is someone who shows him decency for the first time in his life, it's remarkably easy to make him loyal.

Hmm. I think of Zev as someone who is amoral. The Crows only wanted to raise good assasins, not good people.
Once he was shown the value of mercy and friendship he then could compare and choose. I killed him the first three time just on general principal. Now, he is one of the most loyal companions, at least in my endings.

No argument on whether he's amoral.  He is for sure.  That doesn't mean he doesn't heal.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

If she hadn't initiated it, he would just have done his job and killed her. No sex. Just the business. They were targeted by the Crows, who aren't known for their sweet disposition and mercy.

Kinda my point. She did it to get away. She ultimately failed, but that's why she initiated it.

THAT does not make it rape, though.  I think it's a very important distinction.  

[Sabriana]

Yes, but that does not make Zevran guilty of anything. She used it as a weapon to get out of the assassination. He was there to do the job. Had she not offered, he would not have done anything but his job. Sure, he let himself be seduced. It worked for the mage, and it didn't work for the other woman. Sex is a mere tool for assassins and bards, and it is also used as a tool by the marks. This is Antiva, the Crows are the powers to be reckoned with. Sure she could have succeeded and either killed him during sex, or get him to lay off. The latter in turn would likely result in his death - because failure means death, and she would just have another assassin sent after her hide.

There isn't a lot of lore about Antiva and the Crows, but the smattering there is shows that the Crows are more powerful than the ruling monarch, and make a standing army unnecessary. Organizations like that don't play nice. Not with their 'employees' and not with their targets.

I mean, this case could be made for sex workers too. They have little choice, many of them don't. They either sell sex for food, drugs, shelter, keeping their pimps from beating them within an inch of their lives, etc. So do their customers rape them?

[Nonvita]

I just disagree completely that a woman using sex to get out of a situation necessarily constitutes rape on the man's part. For example, I work in a parking citations department (I know I know, I am teh evulz). We have people who rack up $1000 in parking fines and get their cars booted so they're forced to pay. There has been more than one situation where a girl has offered sex to my manager in order to try getting out of paying. Obviously he didn't accept, but assuming he had are you saying this would constitute rape? The girls were trying to manipulate him for their own means by using sex as a tool, so they were very knowingly exploiting their position as a female in order to achieve certain ends.



Now I understand you'll say it's different because there was no knife to their throats. But I honestly think it's the same situation. The girls could simply pay the $1000 or they could try and get out of it by offering sex. The mage could simply accept her fate, or she could try and get out of it by offering sex.



And really, the mage was obviously doing things that would get her targeted. (She was meddling in politics, and she was doing so by using sex in a manipulative fashion, so why is everyone assuming she's so innocent?). She HAD to have known someone would come for her. As such, she was fully prepared to try and dodge the situation through sex. But the idea of using sex came long before Zevran showed up- it was already a tool that was in her repertoire and had served her well thus far.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

If she hadn't initiated it, he would just have done his job and killed her. No sex. Just the business. They were targeted by the Crows, who aren't known for their sweet disposition and mercy.

Kinda my point. She did it to get away. She ultimately failed, but that's why she initiated it.

THAT does not make it rape, though.  I think it's a very important distinction.  

It doesn't make it black and white either. It means that he was in a position of power and she did the only thing she could do to save herself.

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...
Now I understand you'll say it's different because there was no knife to their throats. But I honestly think it's the same situation. The girls could simply pay the $1000 or they could try and get

Yes, it's entirely different. Let's see, out a bit of cash or dead? Yeah, different.

[Nonvita]

Monica21 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
Now I understand you'll say it's different because there was no knife to their throats. But I honestly think it's the same situation. The girls could simply pay the $1000 or they could try and get

Yes, it's entirely different. Let's see, out a bit of cash or dead? Yeah, different.

Then you're ignoring the fact that the mage was already doing things she knew would get her in trouble. You're acting as if Zevran just showed up and threatened to kill her, but she already knew perfectly well an assassin would likely come after her.

Also, $1000 (and more in a lot of cases) is a lot of money, and can easily cause people to have extreme reactions. But I guess you've never seen the way people break down crying, start yelling and screaming, punch things, act as if they are going to die, etc because of it. It isn't death, but it can easily cause the same extreme "I HAVE to do something to get myself out of this!" reaction. It's a different situation, but it is the same reaction.

And really, the fact that the mage was already using sex to manipulate people and meddling in politics pretty much nullifies your argument. She was not innocent. She was not taken off guard by Zevran showing up. She knew she would get in trouble, and she used the same tool she'd been using all along in order to try and get out of it. Zevran never gave her an ultimatum "sex or die," and the idea to use sex in that fashion was not something that came to her mind only because he appeared. She was the manipulator.

[Sabriana]

He was sent there to kill her. If not him, then somebody else, until she is dead, and the contract fulfilled. She tries to get out of it and uses sex. It doesn't work. She initiates it. Out of desperation, perhaps. But she knows she is targeted and if she is an Antivan, she knows she will stay targeted. She uses sex as a tool to get out of it, although it most likely would have been temporary.

The fact is that had she not offered, he would not have done anything but the job he was sent to do. It was his job, nothing more. Someone paid the Crows, and they accepted the job. He lets himself be seduced, and it doesn't work the way the woman planned it. He didn't wander in there and decided to kill her. He was sent. Someone wanted her out of the way. It was a job for a powerful organization, that not even the king dares to cross. If one assassin fails, they simply kill him to set an example and send another one.

[Kryyptehk]

Sabriana wrote...

He was sent there to kill her. If not him, then somebody else, until she is dead, and the contract fulfilled. She tries to get out of it and uses sex. It doesn't work. She initiates it. Out of desperation, perhaps. But she knows she is targeted and if she is an Antivan, she knows she will stay targeted. She uses sex as a tool to get out of it, although it most likely would have been temporary.
The fact is that had she not offered, he would not have done anything but the job he was sent to do. It was his job, nothing more. Someone paid the Crows, and they accepted the job. He lets himself be seduced, and it doesn't work the way the woman planned it. He didn't wander in there and decided to kill her. He was sent. Someone wanted her out of the way. It was a job for a powerful organization, that not even the king dares to cross. If one assassin fails, they simply kill him to set an example and send another one.

I agree 100%. [Zevran] Sabriana, how is it we have not made love yet? [/Zevran]

[Sabriana]

rofl. Thanks, Kryyptehk. That made me laugh, and I needed that right now

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
Now I understand you'll say it's different because there was no knife to their throats. But I honestly think it's the same situation. The girls could simply pay the $1000 or they could try and get

Yes, it's entirely different. Let's see, out a bit of cash or dead? Yeah, different.

Then you're ignoring the fact that the mage was already doing things she knew would get her in trouble. You're acting as if Zevran just showed up and threatened to kill her, but she already knew perfectly well an assassin would likely come after her.

Also, $1000 (and more in a lot of cases) is a lot of money, and can easily cause people to have extreme reactions. But I guess you've never seen the way people break down crying, start yelling and screaming, punch things, act as if they are going to die, etc because of it. It isn't death, but it can easily cause the same extreme "I HAVE to do something to get myself out of this!" reaction. It's a different situation, but it is the same reaction.

And really, the fact that the mage was already using sex to manipulate people and meddling in politics pretty much nullifies your argument. She was not innocent. She was not taken off guard by Zevran showing up. She knew she would get in trouble, and she used the same tool she'd been using all along in order to try and get out of it. Zevran never gave her an ultimatum "sex or die," and the idea to use sex in that fashion was not something that came to her mind only because he appeared. She was the manipulator.

Yes, $1000 is a lot of money, but I've seen people have similar reactions to library card fines (sans offering to sleep with my boss.) And I really don't know whether to laugh or shake my head in disbelief that you think death is the same as owing money. That is utterly ridiculous.

And yes, people who use sex to manipulate can never offer sex under dubious circumstances, can they? They're always wrong, and the person they've agreed to have sex with (for whatever reason) is always right. I'm sure that most of the people who are disagreeing with me have played through the Zevran romance more than once, so you all know she didn't have a reason to sleep with him until her life was on the line. She didn't manipuate him until he tried to kill her, and only then her manipulation was to try and save herself.

[Nonvita]

Monica21 wrote...

Yes, $1000 is a lot of money, but I've seen people have similar reactions to library card fines (sans offering to sleep with my boss.) And I really don't know whether to laugh or shake my head in disbelief that you think death is the same as owing money. That is utterly ridiculous.

And yes, people who use sex to manipulate can never offer sex under dubious circumstances, can they? They're always wrong, and the person they've agreed to have sex with (for whatever reason) is always right. I'm sure that most of the people who are disagreeing with me have played through the Zevran romance more than once, so you all know she didn't have a reason to sleep with him until her life was on the line. She didn't manipuate him until he tried to kill her, and only then her manipulation was to try and save herself.

Funny that you obviously didn't understand anything I just said, and that you continue to ignore every point that others have made. No one else is dumb enough to argue this anymore, because everyone understands that there is nothing to it anymore. If you want to keep defending a position that has no defense, then go ahead. Believe what you want to believe despite the fact there is absolutely no basis for it.

[ejoslin]

Does anyone else find it interesting that it's women who are arguing this? I think men at this point are smart enough to stay FAR away!

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...
Funny that you obviously didn't understand anything I just said, and that you continue to ignore every point that others have made. No one else is dumb enough to argue this anymore, because everyone understands that there is nothing to it anymore. If you want to keep defending a position that has no defense, then go ahead. Believe what you want to believe despite the fact there is absolutely no basis for it.

I'm not even bothering to argue whether it's rape at this point, and you'd know that if you'd read the last few posts I've made. For easier reading here are my points:

• Sometimes women who use sex as a tool are forced to use sex in a situation they otherwise wouldn't
• If you feel cornered and think your only "out" is sex, that's duress
• The mage did not want to have sex, she felt like she had to
• Zevran is not a rapist, he's a product of his environment

If anyone cares at this point, I actually do like Zevran, but there are certain things where I (and my character) refuse to give him a pass. My character can look past his faults and see his environment, or she can kill him on the side of the road for no reason than he was sent to kill her. *shrug* And that's pretty much it.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

Does anyone else find it interesting that it's women who are arguing this? I think men at this point are smart enough to stay FAR away!

How do we know everyone's gender?

I just see icons.

I mean, I suppose Monica and you have given away your genders, but I'm still a transgendered platypus so far as you folks know unless someone has been spying on me...

Also:

It's not whether she was manipulative, or using it to manipulate Zevran.  It's her state of mind at the time.  One doesn't have to be all tingly in their nether regions over someone to offer meaningful consent, but one DOES have to be of sound mind, lest no true consent can be given.  This is why have sex with people who are too drunk to walk straight is generally looked down upon in the civilized world.

I was of the opinion that her state of mind could have gone either way.  She could have been too terrified to give meaningful consent, or she may have been cold enough to have been able to put the fear from her mind.  The fact it could have gone either way made Zevran's actions somewhat questionable at best.

However, Gaider's last post makes me assume that they were of sound mind when they offered.

Though I will say that in Zevran's position I wouldn't take that risk.   I wouldn't take the chance at taking advantage of someone in such a way and would be far more interested in merely giving these women a 'clean kill'. Just as a drunk person might REALLY want to have sex with me, s/he might just as well only be reacting that way because of the presence of heavy amounts of alcohol in his/her bloodstream, and I'm not going to take the chance of taking advantage of someone like that.

It's not a good or nice thing to do.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Does anyone else find it interesting that it's women who are arguing this? I think men at this point are smart enough to stay FAR away!

How do we know everyone's gender?

krylo!  This is not the only thread that I've spoken with these people in!  Though, obviously, on the internet you don't really know, that's true.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Does anyone else find it interesting that it's women who are arguing this? I think men at this point are smart enough to stay FAR away!

How do we know everyone's gender?

krylo!  This is not the only thread that I've spoken with these people in!  Though, obviously, on the internet you don't really know, that's true.

But why would you go to other threads?

This is obviously the most interesting one on the forum.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

It's not a good or nice thing to do.

And assassinating them is better?  Heh, what he does is not good or nice.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...



And assassinating them is better?

Depends upon your personal morals, I suppose.

[EccentricSage]

Monica21 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
Now I understand you'll say it's different because there was no knife to their throats. But I honestly think it's the same situation. The girls could simply pay the $1000 or they could try and get

Yes, it's entirely different. Let's see, out a bit of cash or dead? Yeah, different.

You're still hung up on the subject of power and duress.  Zevran is a slave who's been raped, manipulated, and abused his whole life.  His life is constantly on the line.  You can call it a gray area if you want, but I don't see him as any more guilty than his marks. 

krylo wrote...

But why would you go to other threads?

This is obviously the most interesting one on the forum.

So we can rally Team Zevran and plot our next atack!  Mwahahahahaha

Modifié par EccentricSage, 01 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...



And assassinating them is better?

Depends upon your personal morals, I suppose.

That was a very unfair snipping of my post.  Come on, you changed the meaning doing that.

[EccentricSage]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Does anyone else find it interesting that it's women who are arguing this? I think men at this point are smart enough to stay FAR away!

It's not whether she was manipulative, or using it to manipulate Zevran.  It's her state of mind at the time.  One doesn't have to be all tingly in their nether regions over someone to offer meaningful consent, but one DOES have to be of sound mind, lest no true consent can be given.  This is why have sex with people who are too drunk to walk straight is generally looked down upon in the civilized world.

Antiva is not the civilised world.  lol  And women do need to hold themselves responsible for their own behavior as well.  Being drunk doesn't mean you can absolve yourself from choices you made because you were not of sound mind, as you CHOSE not to be of sound mind when you chose to get that drunk.  I don't feal sorry for people who use alchohol or other mind altering substances as a way to excuse their own behavior, and don't think it's a very good example.

I was of the opinion that her state of mind could have gone either way.  She could have been too terrified to give meaningful consent, or she may have been cold enough to have been able to put the fear from her mind.  The fact it could have gone either way made Zevran's actions somewhat questionable at best.

However, Gaider's last post makes me assume that they were of sound mind when they offered.

Exactly.  These are all hardened people playing the same game.

Though I will say that in Zevran's position I wouldn't take that risk.   I wouldn't take the chance at taking advantage of someone in such a way and would be far more interested in merely giving these women a 'clean kill'. Just as a drunk person might REALLY want to have sex with me, s/he might just as well only be reacting that way because of the presence of heavy amounts of alcohol in his/her bloodstream, and I'm not going to take the chance of taking advantage of someone like that.

It's not a good or nice thing to do.

That's all very good and nice of you. 

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...



And assassinating them is better?

Depends upon your personal morals, I suppose.

That was a very unfair snipping of my post.  Come on, you changed the meaning doing that.

I didn't mean to.

I guess I can see where it would though now that I think of it, but I didn't really interpret it differently without that second part there until you mentioned that.

I apologize.

Though, my response doesn't really work with the rest of it there. What he does isn't good or nice, more or less regardless of personal morals (at least I would hope no one would assume assassination is nice), but whether assassination is better/worse than/the same as any other morally questionable deed would.

EccentricSage wrote...


That's all very good and nice of you. 

Well I'm not an assassin.


...That you know of.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[EccentricSage]

krylo wrote...

Well I'm not an assassin.


...That you know of.

What a very bard-like thing to say... 

I'm on to you.