344 réponses à ce sujet

[flixerflax]

Zevran dies because he tried to kill me. No mercy for that.

[Creature 1]

AndreaDraco wrote...
I can't comment on the rape issue, because, in my opinion, and please, no offense to those who believe so, the comparison is simply idiotic.

Strangely, just because you say "no offense" does not mean that people will not take offense when you are offensive. 

[Jaulen]

I say laugh manically becuase when romancing Leliana, I find her kind of creepy.

But still, one of my points still stand...so Leliana doesn't *rape* becuase her targets are men? if you are going to discuss Zevran being a rapist because he uses sex to get close to a target (although from his comments it doesn't come across that way, it sounds more along the lines of how Sabriana decribes it), then you also have to call Leliana a rapist for using sex to get close to a target (plus from her it sounds more like she uses sex as a way to get close to do the kill)

So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person who has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[Creature 1]

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

How can you equate being raped (unwilling sexual partner) to having sex (willingly I might add) prior to being killed? Hmm....forced sex, or chosen sex with some pleasure, maybe chance of living/killing my would be assasian, and if not, a clean quick death?

Or a being seduced and sexed by a beautuiful woman who will laugh manically as she cuts you and tortures you before she kills you.

*is this faulty memory?* But don't Zevran ADN Leliana mention that people consider it an honor to be targeted by the Orlesian Bards (flirting with danger) or the Antivian Crows (look how important I am!)?

When did Leliana say she tortured people? I thought she said she seduced in order to circumvent having to torture people. And I honestly doubt that she would laugh maniacally while killing. That would just ruin the mood. 

Also,  errant_knight's point is a good one- that the target may be unduly influenced to have sex because they are in a situation where their life could depend on it, which throws into question whether it's truly consensual or not.

Leliana said she killed her targets cleanly whenever possible -- implication being it wasn't always possible.

Got it.

Last night I started thinking about Leliana and Zevran in terms of people like Howe's guards, who blindly follow his orders to kill everyone in Castle Cousland, including the guests and the children. Would I ever, in a thousand years, allow one of Howe's guards to follow me, much less befriend him and romance him?  Absolutely not. And, yet, there are Leliana and Zevran, hanging out by the camp fire being adorable. I have to imagine that one or both of them have been involved in something akin to the Cousland massacre, but because they come packaged with cute accents and some amount of remorse they get taken in without a second thought.

So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

In one, you might only be sleeping with someone on the off chance your life will be spared. In the other, you're sleeping with someone because you want to sleep with them. Killing is killing.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[errant_knight]

Creature 1 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
I can't comment on the rape issue, because, in my opinion, and please, no offense to those who believe so, the comparison is simply idiotic.

Strangely, just because you say "no offense" does not mean that people will not take offense when you are offensive. 

Heh, indeed.

[Jaulen]

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

How is that worse? At least the first situation is more 'honest'

[Helios969]

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

Option C: Get laid and then escape.

[JosieJ]

krylo wrote...

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

Actually, he says just the opposite: that there's nothing sexual in his enjoyment of killing, but rather, it's pride in a job well done.

I don't consider him sociopathic; there's no mental pathology driving him to kill people.  I do consider him amoral; killing is his job, one he--and the society he was raised in--considers perfectly legitimate.

[Jaulen]

Helios969 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

Option C: Get laid and then escape.

I think that's what many of Zevran's 'conquests' are hoping for. Like the mage.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...
I agree with you to an extent in that I have yet to bring myself to actually get close to Leiliana either. I have problems with both of them, but my PCs still think they deserve a chance. Both have significant issues, and it's purely a personal thing which one might consider 'worse'. I will say that the differences between then are fairly minimal when you get down to it, which is why my PCs are much closer to the other party members.

I agree they are very similar (they comment on this themselves) and I also don't think the player is intended to find them easy companions.  Are any of the NPC companions easy?  You are given options like asking Leliana if she is there to spy on you (after she admits to being a bard), and numerous times you can let Zevran know you don't trust him.  None of the NPCs can be taken completely at face value.

Shale puts it best, I think:  "How does it know whether to trust any of its companions?"  It really comes down to the subjective.  I didn't appreciate Zevran's character until I had a PC who I felt, RP-wise, really "got" him and ended up falling in love with him.  That allowed me more empathy for the character, which in turn allowed me to see the nuances to him.  In general I have found the more superficially "difficult" characters like Morrigan, Sten and Zevran to be the most rewarding in the game in terms of interaction.

[Creature 1]

Jaulen wrote...
How is that worse? At least the first situation is more 'honest'

It's like asking if it's worse to get surprised and shot in the head, or surprised, beaten up, and shot in the head. 

The person who doesn't see it coming is in a more pleasant emotional state at the point of their death. 

[Creature 1]

Helios969 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

Option C: Get laid and then escape.

Still doesn't mean that a jury wouldn't convict the other person of rape. 

Suppose it's a girl who has sex with her abusive ex-boyfriend after he breaks into her apartment and she thinks he's going to kill her.  She may have agreed to have sex with him, and she may escape with her life, but he still committed a crime. 

[Jaulen]

Edit: Crazy computer!

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[Jaulen]

Edit: Like one of 10 posts!

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[Jaulen]

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