344 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaulen]

Edit: Whoa crazy computer!

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[Jaulen]

EDIT

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[Jaulen]

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Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[Jaulen]

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Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[Jaulen]

[EDIT

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[Jaulen]

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Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[Skeletondog]

Jaulen wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

How is that worse? At least the first situation is more 'honest'

Jaulen - I think there's a miscommunication going on, here, as your arguments hinge upon the idea that the targets -wanted- to have sex with Zevran. Which may have been the case - that's how I want to interpret it.

What we're disturbed by is the idea that the targets may -not- have wanted to have sex with Zevran, and only did so in a last ditch attempt to save themselves. This is where the situation becomes particularily disturbing - if her motivation for it was fear, in the same way as if Zevran were the one to say 'I won't kill you if you sleep with me,' then it becomes alarming.

[krylo]

JosieJ wrote...

krylo wrote...

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

Actually, he says just the opposite: that there's nothing sexual in his enjoyment of killing, but rather, it's pride in a job well done.

I don't consider him sociopathic; there's no mental pathology driving him to kill people.  I do consider him amoral; killing is his job, one he--and the society he was raised in--considers perfectly legitimate.

Right, I misrememered that quote.

However, you misunderstand sociopathy.

Not all sociopaths are killers.

Not even the majority.

Sociopaths are simply unable to properly empathize with other human beings which makes it very difficult for them to tell right from wrong the way you (I hope) or I do.  To them it's very difficult to understand why killing someone is wrong, because they are unable to put themselves in either the victim's or the vitcim's family's shoes.

Here.

"The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[15][16][17] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[18]Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short lived and egocentric with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[18] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour.[19]"

No where does it mention being forced to kill by their mental problem.  However, most of those characteristics fit Zevran to the T.  At least at FIRST.  He is redeemable, so he's likely not a true psycopath, however this part pertains to Zev particularly:

"On the other hand, he claims sociopaths have relatively normal temperaments; their personality disorder being more an effect of negative sociological factors like parental neglect, delinquent peers, poverty, and extremely low or extremely high intelligence. "

And yes yes I know Wikipedia, not the best source blah blah, but it was easier than finding psych journals for you and making you read those.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[Creature 1]

Jaulen wrote...
So we should just let executioners come for the condemed on a random basis instead of letting them have a last wish and make peace with whatever God they believe in

The people Zevran killed were not tried for crimes and convicted by a jury of their peers after having the opportunity to provide witnesses and a representative to argue on their behalf.  He's a hired killer.  If I have a hired killer after me, I hope I go quickly.  

I need no last wish unless it's for a gun to shoot whoever's after me, and I do not believe in a God to make up with.  

Getting beaten up? Not the same as a pleasent couple of hours spent having sex prior to dying.
Now sitting down and eating a chocolate cake knowing I

Snipped, apparently. 

Totally have absolutely no desire to have sex with anyone who is about to kill me, no matter how hot he might be. 

[Addai]

Creature 1 wrote...
Suppose it's a girl who has sex with her abusive ex-boyfriend after he breaks into her apartment and she thinks he's going to kill her.  She may have agreed to have sex with him, and she may escape with her life, but he still committed a crime. 

I am just not getting this comparison.  When does Zevran ever say that he offered his marks sex in lieu of killing them (thus making the sex forced)?  Edit: You can assert that he should have refused their offers of sex on some principle of honor, I suppose, but that does not make him a rapist.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Creature 1]

That is the most amazing multiple post I've seen on this forum! 

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I agree with you to an extent in that I have yet to bring myself to actually get close to Leiliana either. I have problems with both of them, but my PCs still think they deserve a chance. Both have significant issues, and it's purely a personal thing which one might consider 'worse'. I will say that the differences between then are fairly minimal when you get down to it, which is why my PCs are much closer to the other party members.

I agree they are very similar (they comment on this themselves) and I also don't think the player is intended to find them easy companions.  Are any of the NPC companions easy?  You are given options like asking Leliana if she is there to spy on you (after she admits to being a bard), and numerous times you can let Zevran know you don't trust him.  None of the NPCs can be taken completely at face value.

Shale puts it best, I think:  "How does it know whether to trust any of its companions?"  It really comes down to the subjective.  I didn't appreciate Zevran's character until I had a PC who I felt, RP-wise, really "got" him and ended up falling in love with him.  That allowed me more empathy for the character, which in turn allowed me to see the nuances to him.  In general I have found the more superficially "difficult" characters like Morrigan, Sten and Zevran to be the most rewarding in the game in terms of interaction.

I get that. I find getting to know Sten very interesting--trying to figure out his morals and his culture, the growth of his respect for the PC as a leader. My PCs never consider him a friend, per se, not like Alistair and Wynne--or even Oghren. He's too different for that, too far outside a common point of reference, but they greatly enjoy their conversations with him.

Morrigan falls somewhere in between. Sometimes my PCs sees the girl with the mirror in her, but sometimes they don't trust her at all, or are irritated by her attitude. It's always a back and forth thing. They do end up being much closer to her than to Zevran or Leiliana, though.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...
Suppose it's a girl who has sex with her abusive ex-boyfriend after he breaks into her apartment and she thinks he's going to kill her.  She may have agreed to have sex with him, and she may escape with her life, but he still committed a crime. 

I am just not getting this comparison.  When does Zevran ever say that he offered his marks sex in lieu of killing them (thus making the sex forced)?

Said ex-boyfriend in my scenario didn't either. 

[Skeletondog]

Sabriana wrote...

Zevran: "The Antivan Crows send their regards.
Mark: Oh no. Why?
Zevran: "I do not know, but this is the way it is."
Mark: "Will you grant me one last wish?"
Zevran: "Of course."
Mark: "Give me one last night of passion."
Zevran: "But certainly."

Now, whether the targeted victim wanted it because she thought it would give her the opportunity to out-wit him or not is never clear. But his statement "you think I'm a monster?" points to her asking him for a favor. He obliges. He thinks he is doing her a favor.

The character Zevran is a slave. He has been sold to the most powerful faction in Antiva at age 7. Before that he resided in a wh*rehouse. Where he learned a 'massage technique'. A small child caught in the world of sex for sale. A small child who had no one. Ever.

That scenario you described didn't occur to me. Thank you for your input.

[Monica21]

[quote]Jaulen wrote...

Option C: Get laid and then escape.[/quote]

I think that's what many of Zevran's 'conquests' are hoping for. Like the mage.[/quote]
And how do we know what the mage was thinking when she was begging for her life? If I ever end up begging for my life, the last thing on my mind would be "gee, I hope I get an orgasm out of this" no matter what my cultural background is. That's even more shallow than painting Zevran with a "rapist" brush.

To be honest, I see both sides. The sex could barely be considered consensual, but neither is the death. Sex is part of Antivan culture but so is murder. We don't know if Zevran ever changes his views on how he sees murder, but I believe he changes his views on sex if you're in a romance with him. Sex becomes something that isn't meaningless whereas it was before he met you.

[JosieJ]

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
How is that worse? At least the first situation is more 'honest'

It's like asking if it's worse to get surprised and shot in the head, or surprised, beaten up, and shot in the head. 

The person who doesn't see it coming is in a more pleasant emotional state at the point of their death. 

Hmm, when it comes to Zevran's first mark (the mage), at least, she knew what he was there for, which was why she tried to bargain for her life with sex.  I don't know that her emotional state would have been all that pleasant had he killed her outright (since clearly she knew what was coming); the only benefit (to her) that I can think of was that said emotional state wouldn't have lasted as long.  The irony, of course, was that her plea succeeded--he wasn't going to kill her, it was pure dumb luck that she died.

Note that I'm not saying this necessarily makes him a better person, just that imputing a certain state of mind to his victims may not be so simple.

[Skeletondog]

Creature 1 wrote...

Skeletondog wrote...
Frankly, I get this feeling that the writers weren't really considering the weight of what Zev was describing. The way it's told, it's as if the stories are suppossed to be funny - and  there's no option to discuss or react in a way you'd expect a character to be able to react to a rapist. You can say "you used her!" as if it's on par with sleeping with someone to steal their wallet - besides that, nada.

. . .

He didn't realize what he was doing? This, I find plausible - as someone who'd been tortured and brainwashed into viewing death as almost trivial and sex as always desirable, it does make sense that he might not have been able to understand at the time why someone would sleep with him if she really didn't want to. ...But really, 'he didn't realize it was rape' isn't much of a justification.

So then, I'm basically left with thinking, well, errr... ummm... okay, we don't know who these people were... maybe they weren't that afraid! Maybe they really were just calm and wily and not reluctant! ...oh, except for the part where he says that one was begging on her knees for her life before seducing him. ...Er, maybe she wasn't afraid when she thought it was working! And so uh, she really did want it, because...!

...Okay, yeah, that's difficult to swallow.

Did anyone else find this disturbing? Anyone find a better way to frame it so it's not as bad? And wtf, Bioware?

Are you my sock puppet? 

Reading your posts here - are you MY sockpuppet? Get outta here!

[JosieJ]

krylo wrote...

JosieJ wrote...

krylo wrote...

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

Actually, he says just the opposite: that there's nothing sexual in his enjoyment of killing, but rather, it's pride in a job well done.

I don't consider him sociopathic; there's no mental pathology driving him to kill people.  I do consider him amoral; killing is his job, one he--and the society he was raised in--considers perfectly legitimate.

Right, I misrememered that quote.

However, you misunderstand sociopathy.

Not all sociopaths are killers.

Not even the majority.

Sociopaths are simply unable to properly empathize with other human beings which makes it very difficult for them to tell right from wrong the way you (I hope) or I do.  To them it's very difficult to understand why killing someone is wrong, because they are unable to put themselves in either the victim's or the vitcim's family's shoes.

Here.

"The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[15][16][17] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[18]Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short lived and egocentric with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[18] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour.[19]"

No where does it mention being forced to kill by their mental problem.  However, most of those characteristics fit Zevran to the T.  At least at FIRST.  He is redeemable, so he's likely not a true psycopath, however this part pertains to Zev particularly:

Note my emphasis.  So, you're basically objecting to me pointing out that he's probably not a sociopath by giving me a whole psychological dissertation, then coming to basically the same conclusion?

[krylo]

JosieJ wrote...


Note my emphasis.  So, you're basically objecting to me pointing out that he's probably not a sociopath by giving me a whole psychological dissertation, then coming to basically the same conclusion?

You said he wasn't one because he isn't driven to kill by his illness, which isn't valid.

If you had said he wasn't one because he's redeemable, I would have simply said you were splitting hairs.  He displays every single bit of sociopathic behaviour one can display.  Sociopaths in the real world never get better to the best of my knowledge, however, while Zevran apparently can.  That's the only area in which he differs.

Edit: A psychologist meeting him when you meet him would probably diagnose him with sociopathy/psychopathy but would reverse the diagnosis later when he began 'getting better'.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[Jaulen]

Sorry the multiple post there!!!!



I wasn't even done writing and BAM! like 15 posts....



*ugh*

[Helios969]

Creature 1 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...
So what's better, a person who you know is going to kill you that you sleep with and then kills you, or a person you has sex with you and you are unaware of their true intention until they slip the blade through your ribs?

Same outcome, a sexed and dead target.

No, different.  The first is worse. 

Option C: Get laid and then escape.

Still doesn't mean that a jury wouldn't convict the other person of rape. 

Suppose it's a girl who has sex with her abusive ex-boyfriend after he breaks into her apartment and she thinks he's going to kill her.  She may have agreed to have sex with him, and she may escape with her life, but he still committed a crime. 

You won't get any argument from me.

[ejoslin]

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Edit: He was a slave.  Had he not killed his targets, he would be killed.  If he tried to leave the Crows, he would be killed.  If he wasn't taking jobs, well, he would be killed.  The fact that his being a Crow gave him a life better than 99% of elves in that world doesn't negate the fact he didn't have a choice.  Sex is part of that life, using it as a tool to get to his targets.  Again, this is what he was taught since age 7.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[Addai]

Creature 1 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...
Suppose it's a girl who has sex with her abusive ex-boyfriend after he breaks into her apartment and she thinks he's going to kill her.  She may have agreed to have sex with him, and she may escape with her life, but he still committed a crime. 

I am just not getting this comparison.  When does Zevran ever say that he offered his marks sex in lieu of killing them (thus making the sex forced)?

Said ex-boyfriend in my scenario didn't either. 

I take it what you are driving at is that there can be no such thing as consensual sex under the duress of fear for one's life.  I can agree with that, though I think it strains the game lore to put so much modern psychological-legal baggage onto situations as they are presented in their own context.  The game world is brutal in so many ways.

Not that I would ever try to convince a person to violate their personal sense of rightness and wrongness for a video game.  There are some things in the game that I can't bring myself to do, for RP or any other reason.  This, i.e. "forgiving" (not justifying) Zevran's past, just isn't one of them for me.  I believe these anecdotes he tells are meant to show how disconnected sex is from emotion for him.  I don't think that you're not supposed to be shocked by them.  I don't even think that Zevran expects that!  He is matter-of-fact because it is all he has ever known.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Being a killer is not what being sociopathic/psychopathic is about.

Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

I think the issue here is in semantics.  When I call him a sociopath I don't mean he's all like "WEE MURDER YES MMM... THAT'S THE SWEEEET STUFF."  I mean he's, "Yeah.  I kill people.  So?  Anyway, wanna ****?"

In fact, I'd argue that to be an assassin one more or less HAS to have sociopathic tendencies if not have the mental disorder in all its glory.  If you feel shame, guilt, or remorse over murder you're going to have a hard time doing your job.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:15 .

[Alandros]

People don't have to be justifiable to be the way they are.