344 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Being a killer is not what being sociopathic/psychopathic is about.

Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

I think the issue here is in semantics.  When I call him a sociopath I don't mean he's all like "WEE MURDER YES MMM... THAT'S THE SWEEEET STUFF."  I mean he's, "Yeah.  I kill people.  So?  Anyway, wanna ****?"

In fact, I'd argue that to be an assassin one more or less HAS to have sociopathic tendencies if not have the mental disorder in all its glory.  If you feel shame, guilt, or remorse over murder you're going to have a hard time doing your job.

He does have a conscious, though, and he admits it if you tell him that he's cold -- this is not something he considers a positive trait.

[Creature 1]

Skeletondog wrote...
Reading your posts here - are you MY sockpuppet? Get outta here!

I was here first! 

[Jaulen]

"The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[15][16][17] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[18]Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short lived and egocentric with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[18] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour.[19]"

Wow, sounds like my ex husband.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Being a killer is not what being sociopathic/psychopathic is about.

Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

I think the issue here is in semantics.  When I call him a sociopath I don't mean he's all like "WEE MURDER YES MMM... THAT'S THE SWEEEET STUFF."  I mean he's, "Yeah.  I kill people.  So?  Anyway, wanna ****?"

In fact, I'd argue that to be an assassin one more or less HAS to have sociopathic tendencies if not have the mental disorder in all its glory.  If you feel shame, guilt, or remorse over murder you're going to have a hard time doing your job.

He does have a conscious, though, and he admits it if you tell him that he's cold -- this is not something he considers a positive trait.

Aye, but his conscious is buried so deep that even he is surprised to find he has one.

I should probably point out that I actually like Zevran and have slept with him with multiple characters.

This isn't me condemning him, I merely find calling him a sociopath an easy way to categorize his personality as you find him and explain why he acted the way he did in the situations the OP has trouble with.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

"The prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviances in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and self-control. Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[15][16][17] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright.[18]Psychopaths also lack empathy towards others in general, resulting in tactlessness, insensitivity, and contemptuousness. All of this belies their tendency to make a good, likable first impression. Psychopaths have a superficial charm about them, enabled by a willingness to say anything without concern for accuracy or truth. Shallow affect also describes the psychopath's tendency for genuine emotion to be short lived and egocentric with an overall cold demeanor. Their behavior is impulsive and irresponsible, often failing to keep a job or defaulting on debts.[18] Psychopaths also have a markedly distorted sense of the potential consequences of their actions, not only for others, but also for themselves. They do not, for example, deeply recognize the risk of being caught, disbelieved or injured as a result of their behaviour.[19]"

Wow, sounds like my ex husband.

Hmmm, reading that definition (I know, I'm bad, but I avoid walls of text) further convinces me that Zevran as presented in the game is not a sociopath.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 07:20 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Being a killer is not what being sociopathic/psychopathic is about.

Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

I think the issue here is in semantics.  When I call him a sociopath I don't mean he's all like "WEE MURDER YES MMM... THAT'S THE SWEEEET STUFF."  I mean he's, "Yeah.  I kill people.  So?  Anyway, wanna ****?"

In fact, I'd argue that to be an assassin one more or less HAS to have sociopathic tendencies if not have the mental disorder in all its glory.  If you feel shame, guilt, or remorse over murder you're going to have a hard time doing your job.

He does have a conscious, though, and he admits it if you tell him that he's cold -- this is not something he considers a positive trait.

If you've made it to the point in the relationship (friend or romance) and you know why he accepted the job to kill you, I think it's quite clear he does have a conscious. He did feel shame, guilt and remorse or he wouldn't have accepted it. Even if it hadn't been for the job against you, he wouldn't have made it as a Crow much longer.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...
Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

You can only conclude that Zevran doesn't have a conscience if you never talk to him (edit: and never take him on any missions).  Is he going to bare his soul to you on the first conversation?  Well, surprisingly given the life he has led, he does bare a lot to the Warden rather quickly.  More quickly than Alistair, for instance.

However, what does it mean for someone like Zevran to have a conscience that tears at him constantly?  It means he's dead, one way or another.  That is the point he was at, in fact, when the Warden meets him- preferring death to going on.

I'm no psychologist.  However, from what I have read of sociopathy, it can't be cured, let alone set aside willingly.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 07:26 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Aye, but his conscious is buried so deep that even he is surprised to find he has one.

its not buried that deep considering he doesnt like it when you try wiping out entire groups of people among other things

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 26 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...
I take it what you are driving at is that there can be no such thing as consensual sex under the duress of fear for one's life.  I can agree with that, though I think it strains the game lore to put so much modern psychological-legal baggage onto situations as they are presented in their own context.  The game world is brutal in so many ways.

Not that I would ever try to convince a person to violate their personal sense of rightness and wrongness for a video game.  There are some things in the game that I can't bring myself to do, for RP or any other reason.  This, i.e. "forgiving" (not justifying) Zevran's past, just isn't one of them for me.  I believe these anecdotes he tells are meant to show how disconnected sex is from emotion for him.  I don't think that you're not supposed to be shocked by them.  I don't even think that Zevran expects that!  He is matter-of-fact because it is all he has ever known.

I agree with most of this.  I don't think he meant to do anything wrong, but because of his history failed to appreciate how someone from a different background might feel.  

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He's an assassin, not a psychotic killer though. He was a wh*rehouse boy, with some references that he was taught things there, then sold, at age 7, and trained to be a killer. The fact that he has a conscious is a surprise, even to him (which he will admit).

Being a killer is not what being sociopathic/psychopathic is about.

Not having a conscious is.

He doesn't have one that is at all identifiable when you first meet him.   It is only the fact that he develops one later that seperates him from sociopathy.

I think the issue here is in semantics.  When I call him a sociopath I don't mean he's all like "WEE MURDER YES MMM... THAT'S THE SWEEEET STUFF."  I mean he's, "Yeah.  I kill people.  So?  Anyway, wanna ****?"

In fact, I'd argue that to be an assassin one more or less HAS to have sociopathic tendencies if not have the mental disorder in all its glory.  If you feel shame, guilt, or remorse over murder you're going to have a hard time doing your job.

He does have a conscious, though, and he admits it if you tell him that he's cold -- this is not something he considers a positive trait.

Aye, but his conscious is buried so deep that even he is surprised to find he has one.

Nope.  Not at all.  He expresses a lot of regrets.  You call him cold, he says with his youth and assassin training it's surprising he's not cold, alas (paraphrased).  Some of the regrets do come out in romance dialogs, but not most.  You won't see them if you're choosing, "No, you're right," OR, "You're a horrible person."  There are answers usually between those two which give a lot of interesting dialog.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm no psychologist.  However, from what I have read of sociopathy, it can't be cured, let alone set aside willingly.

Yeah, I said that.

And I've romanced him at  least twice, though I don't think I ever reached the full end of that path (despite him running off with me in end game once).

I understand that he does actually have a conscience and he's not a true psychopath/sociopath, but I also believe that, before you met him, he was, for all intents, one.  His conscience was buried so deep that it was basically nonexistant.

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

and that event caused him to try commit suicide via grey warden

[Skeletondog]

MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I CREATED



Haha. Thus far, I like the interpretation that the targets may have genuinely wanted to get laid before facing what was to come - it didn't occur to me that with the both brutal and very, very sexual nature of Antivan culture, it might be conceivable for someone to think "well ****, can't I get something nice before I go out?" Though the idea of someone reacting that way in our own culture (or at least, modern Western culture, I'm not sure about around the world) is a big stretch, it's true that we don't know how someone would react if they were raised in that sex-obsessed context.



Thank you for all replies, but I personally, PERSONALLY, don't find sexually abusive characters redeemable (insert angry comments of hypocrisy assuming a number of things about my personal morals here) so I'm not particularly interested in the 'maybe it was that bad, but he gets better' angle.



And thanks to those of you not freaking out at me for defining the more disturbing take on Zevran's scenario as rape.

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'm no psychologist.  However, from what I have read of sociopathy, it can't be cured, let alone set aside willingly.

Yeah, I said that.

And I've romanced him at  least twice, though I don't think I ever reached the full end of that path (despite him running off with me in end game once).

I understand that he does actually have a conscience and he's not a true psychopath/sociopath, but I also believe that, before you met him, he was, for all intents, one.  His conscience was buried so deep that it was basically nonexistant.

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

If you just take the words as-is, then I can perhaps see your point, but I hear his intonation and the facial expression and think he didn't like killing her at all. In fact, he was so torn about it that he was determined to off himself one way or another. I don't see how that speaks to a buried conscience.

[krylo]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

and that event caused him to try commit suicide via grey warden

But he felt no remorse at the time.  It wasn't until he was told that she hadn't betrayed him and he is forced to look at it all in a new light that his conscience surfaces.

Edit: Monica, if you listen to the whole story you find out that he came to regret it some time later.  Looking back on something you regret now will cause those expressions even if you didn't regret it at the time you did it.  I've done some **** in my past (nothing as terrible as Zevvie-poo, obviously) that I didn't regret at the time, but do regret now and looking back at it still brings forth feelings of regret.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:29 .

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'm no psychologist.  However, from what I have read of sociopathy, it can't be cured, let alone set aside willingly.

Yeah, I said that.

And I've romanced him at  least twice, though I don't think I ever reached the full end of that path (despite him running off with me in end game once).

I understand that he does actually have a conscience and he's not a true psychopath/sociopath, but I also believe that, before you met him, he was, for all intents, one.  His conscience was buried so deep that it was basically nonexistant.

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

Well, to pick nits, he didn't kill her, but he allowed her to be killed.  And it's debatable whether he really loved her or if she was everything he thought he desired (different implications there).  And there's more to that story -- it's not just about her, but about the Crows and their reaction.  It was his breaking point, though.  Since his only way out was death, he went for that.

More than once he thanks the warden for giving him a new path.  

Edit: 

krylo wrote...
But he felt no remorse at the time.  It wasn't until he was told that she hadn't betrayed him and he is forced to look at it all in a new light that his conscience surfaces.

Which is why it's debatable that he really loved her.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 07:29 .

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'm no psychologist.  However, from what I have read of sociopathy, it can't be cured, let alone set aside willingly.

Yeah, I said that.

And I've romanced him at  least twice, though I don't think I ever reached the full end of that path (despite him running off with me in end game once).

I understand that he does actually have a conscience and he's not a true psychopath/sociopath, but I also believe that, before you met him, he was, for all intents, one.  His conscience was buried so deep that it was basically nonexistant.

Remember HOW he killed the woman he loved, eh?

Well, to pick nits, he didn't kill her, but he allowed her to be killed.  And it's debatable whether he really loved her or if she was everything he thought he desired (different implications there).  And there's more to that story -- it's not just about her, but about the Crows and their reaction.  It was his breaking point, though.  Since his only way out was death, he went for that.

More than once he thanks the warden for giving him a new path.  

Edit: 

krylo wrote...
But he felt no remorse at the time.  It wasn't until he was told that she hadn't betrayed him and he is forced to look at it all in a new light that his conscience surfaces.

Which is why it's debatable that he really loved her.

Either way I would suggest the way her murder happened and his actions in that case point to that being the first event that caused him to actually let his conscience come to the surface.

I'd also posit that he did love her, otherwise he'd have had no reason to care even if she hadn't betrayed him.  He had killed many other beautiful women, and it made no difference to him.

[Alandros]

One thing to remember is people express things in very different ways. Some people don't visibly and externally express things much at all in fact. Just because someone doesn't show guilt does not mean someone doesn't feel or, or didn't feel it and already dealt with it.

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...
Edit: Monica, if you listen to the whole story you find out that he came to regret it some time later.  Looking back on something you regret now will cause those expressions even if you didn't regret it at the time you did it.  I've done some **** in my past (nothing as terrible as Zevvie-poo, obviously) that I didn't regret at the time, but do regret now and looking back at it still brings forth feelings of regret.

Granted, we don't know how long ago he killed her, but it seems to have been fairly recently. His regrets are not "some time later," they're rather immediate as they are what cause him to accept the contract in the first place.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

Either way I would suggest the way her murder happened and his actions in that case point to that being the first event that caused him to actually let his conscience come to the surface.

I'd also posit that he did love her, otherwise he'd have had no reason to care even if she hadn't betrayed him.  He had killed many other beautiful women, and it made no difference to him.

See, I disagree with this assessment.  The stories he tells are things that bothered him.  And I didn't say he had no feelings for her -- he himself says that she was everything he thought he desired -- but that's not the same as being in love.

Whether it was this happening that caused him to start feeling remorse -- I don't know.  A party banter he has with Leliana, he does refer to his marks as "it" which is definitely dehumanizing them, but he ALSO is concerned with kills being clean, which shows some measure of compassion.

Again, he had no choice.  At all.  It was all he knew, all he was taught, and if he didn't continue in that life, he would be killed.  I can't put myself into his head because I cannot picture a life that horrifying.  

[krylo]

Monica21 wrote...

krylo wrote...
Edit: Monica, if you listen to the whole story you find out that he came to regret it some time later.  Looking back on something you regret now will cause those expressions even if you didn't regret it at the time you did it.  I've done some **** in my past (nothing as terrible as Zevvie-poo, obviously) that I didn't regret at the time, but do regret now and looking back at it still brings forth feelings of regret.

Granted, we don't know how long ago he killed her, but it seems to have been fairly recently. His regrets are not "some time later," they're rather immediate as they are what cause him to accept the contract in the first place.

From what I recall he was happy with it at the time.  It was whenever he returned and was told that she never betrayed them, and the true betrayer is found that he feels regret.

I used some time not as a standard of 'oh it was a while....' but rather in that I don't think we're ever told if it is hours, days, or weeks.

Maybe we were?  I don't recall everything perfectly as my zevmances were shortly after the game was released.

Edit: Granted Ejosin.  I would say that the way he tells his tales and describes killing as something he enjoys marks him pretty far toward having dealt with that life by just shuttling away his compassion to some far off corner of his brain, but it's hard to know exactly how messed up he was or wasn't.

I simply see many similarities between his personality and a classic textbook sociopath (which if you read that block of text I'm sure you'll agree with) and figure that if he was repressing his compassion/conscience that much it would explain the issues the OP had very easily.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[Addai]

Skeletondog wrote...

MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I CREATED

LOL  Bask in your thread's page count, my friend.

it's true that we don't know how someone would react if they were raised in that sex-obsessed context.

I don't know that I'd call it sex-obsessed.  Personally, I think our culture is sex-obsessed and thus sex-neurotic.  I see Antiva as more of a...  we don't have a good expression in English.  A "fine life" culture.  A good wine, a good meal, a good lay, these are things to be experienced and appreciated in and of themselves.  I get the impression that Zevran's marks, like him, find a certain zest in the danger of their deadly games.  That is why I can't take these stories so seriously as to use words like rape to describe them.

Thank you for all replies, but I personally, PERSONALLY, don't find sexually abusive characters redeemable (insert angry comments of hypocrisy assuming a number of things about my personal morals here) so I'm not particularly interested in the 'maybe it was that bad, but he gets better' angle.

Not to beat a dead horse, but do you also find Morrigan and Leliana to be unredeemable?  Or is it different for them since they are women?  (I ask that in sincerity, as some people really do think that.)

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Either way I would suggest the way her murder happened and his actions in that case point to that being the first event that caused him to actually let his conscience come to the surface.

I don't know about that. He talks about being very resistant to the Crow training at first, which suggests that he's always had a conscience about things. But through the training, he realized he could either submit to what they said or be killed. There wasn't a middle ground. So he buried that conscience very deep, yes, but there are many things in the game that suggest he was always aware that what he was doing was horrible. Asking forgiveness to the Maker for every person he killed being just one example. However, in the end they were things he had to do to stay alive, regardless of what he truly felt.

As for the sex, as said before, I do think it's very much a cultural thing. I don't personally see the mage example as some helpless victim, as she showed herself to be very manipulative. How do we know that these people didn't have legitimate reasons for being targeted for assassination? I'm not saying that excuses everything, but I really think it's wrong to compare Antiva to the real world when it's obviously a very different place.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...


Not to beat a dead horse, but do you also find Morrigan and Leliana to be unredeemable?  Or is it different for them since they are women?  (I ask that in sincerity, as some people really do think that.)

What did Morrigan do that was 'sexually abusive'?  Her mother did things to the Chasind, but I don't recall any mention of Morrigan joining in the 'reindeer games' as it were.

I'd also suggest that because Leliana, to the best of our knowledge, doesn't have sex with someone under duress, but rather seduces them the old fashion way and then kills them--the OP probably wouldn't see it in the same light.

I know I don't.

If Zevran had flirted his marks up and then killed them during/right after sex through normal seduction, this thread probably wouldn't exist.  It was Zev's comment about a woman on her knees begging for her life with his dick in her mouth that sparked the issue.

[Creature 1]

Skeletondog wrote...
Thank you for all replies, but I personally, PERSONALLY, don't find sexually abusive characters redeemable (insert angry comments of hypocrisy assuming a number of things about my personal morals here) so I'm not particularly interested in the 'maybe it was that bad, but he gets better' angle.

I don't think he intended to be abusive.  My hypothesis is that he was sexually abused from a young age, and because of this came to see sex as a physical activity without much import that is tolerable and even enjoyable whether or not you like the other person.  I suppose the alternative would have been taking a header off a tall building.  So I don't think it occurred to him that the other person might find the experience humiliating, degrading, or enraging.  If they offered and weren't fighting back or protesting, he probably thought they were fine with it.  I imagine Zevran if the situation were reversed might use sex as a delaying tactic, and just find it moderately distasteful at the worst.  In dialogue you several times get options that sexually objectify Zevran, and if you choose those he seems to take it for granted. 

I find those situations extremely disturbing but Zevran is still my favorite character in the game.