344 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Something else that comes to mind is that the Crows' victims tend to be people who move in circles of power in Antiva. Not only does this mean they have to know they are making themselves targets of assassins, but it means they are certainly willing to use the same methods themselves and likely do. Their attempts to turn the tables on Zevran show this, IMO. It doesn't make his actions or theirs any better, but to my mind it makes the marks less sympathetic.

[Creature 1]

krylo wrote...
I simply see many similarities between his personality and a classic textbook sociopath (which if you read that block of text I'm sure you'll agree with) and figure that if he was repressing his compassion/conscience that much it would explain the issues the OP had very easily.

Sociopaths don't have to repress, the lack of empathy comes naturally. 

[krylo]

Creature 1 wrote...

krylo wrote...
I simply see many similarities between his personality and a classic textbook sociopath (which if you read that block of text I'm sure you'll agree with) and figure that if he was repressing his compassion/conscience that much it would explain the issues the OP had very easily.

Sociopaths don't have to repress, the lack of empathy comes naturally. 

Indeed.

And this would be the third time that I said he wasn't a true sociopath due to his ability to come back from it.

The whole argument we're having here is semantics.

I'd probably just be like "No seriously, you guys are right he's not one, my bad on using the word without qualifiers" but then I'd have nothing to do.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

What did Morrigan do that was 'sexually abusive'?  Her mother did things to the Chasind, but I don't recall any mention of Morrigan joining in the 'reindeer games' as it were.

I read it as being heavily implied that she did, in fact, participate.  Interpretation, no doubt.

I'd also suggest that because Leliana, to the best of our knowledge, doesn't have sex with someone under duress, but rather seduces them the old fashion way and then kills them--the OP probably wouldn't see it in the same light.

I know I don't.

Huh.  Because I see the first as more reprehensible, given that in these instances Zevran's marks try to seduce him.   Not that he didn't also use the "classic" seduction method in his work, either, because he comes right out and tells you he did and that this was why elven assassins were preferred.

If Zevran had flirted his marks up and then killed them during/right after sex through normal seduction, this thread probably wouldn't exist.  It was Zev's comment about a woman on her knees begging for her life with his dick in her mouth that sparked the issue.

Personally I would ask that the crude language be left out.  And let us again recall that if there is a sexual element in these anecdotes, it is because the mark decided to take it there, not Zevran.  It would be a different story if he forced them or suggested they exchange "favors" for their lives.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

Personally I would ask that the crude language be left out.  And let us again recall that if there is a sexual element in these anecdotes, it is because the mark decided to take it there, not Zevran.  It would be a different story if he forced them or suggested they exchange "favors" for their lives.

I'm not sure it matters whether or not it was the Mark's idea.  The mark was terrified for their life and suggesting it as a way to get out.  In that case at least/especially as that Zev paints the picture that way.  She was begging for her life by going down on him.   She didn't want to die and was hoping that if she did a good job he wouldn't kill her.

There are differences between this and holding a knife to someone's throat and requesting it, but either way it paints a pretty terrible picture of the scene and Zev himself, and it's FAR different than consensual sex.  Look up statutory rape--not the age laws, but the actual definition of why it's illegal in certain situations even when the ages alone wouldn't make it such.  It's impossible to provide meaningful consent when the person you're consenting to has great enough power over you, regardless of who makes the first move.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 08:13 .

[AndreaDraco]

I never get this terrible picture by Zev's talking, so I guess you're reading way too much into them. And also twisting them a bit to fit this point of view.

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I never get this terrible picture by Zev's talking, so I guess you're reading way too much into them. And also twisting them a bit to fit this point of view.

His exact quote is something along the lines of "She got down and begged on her knees" and then he laughs and makes an oral sex joke about begging.

Something like that.

IT HAS BEEN AWHILE AS I SAID.  

Honestly, I didn't think too deeply on the line either, until the OP brought it up, but upon greater reflection, yeah, it was pretty terribad.

[JosieJ]

krylo wrote...

I'd probably just be like "No seriously, you guys are right he's not one, my bad on using the word without qualifiers" but then I'd have nothing to do.

And there you've just negated the whole post I just spent 20 minutes composing, so I'll cease my hair-splitting now!

Modifié par JosieJ, 26 février 2010 - 08:16 .

[Addai]

Well once again, are we really going to take modern legal- and psychobabble into the game world? Because it gets ridiculous in a hurry if you do. I do get the principle being argued, that in such cases there can be no such thing as consensual sex, but just don't think it makes much sense to argue that in the context. And again, how you can find that taking advantage of someone's trust and vulnerability to kill them is better than taking advantage of their willingness to try to outmaneuver you when the game is laid out on the table is just not a point I'm able to comprehend.

[krylo]

JosieJ wrote...

krylo wrote...

I'd probably
just be like "No seriously, you guys are right he's not one, my bad on
using the word without qualifiers" but then I'd have nothing to do.

And there you've just negated the whole post I just spent 20 minutes composing, so I'll cease my hair-splitting now!

Sorry...

If you still have it saved I'd really like to read it, honest!

If you spent 20 minutes on it, it's probably pretty interesting.

Addai67 wrote...

Well once again, are we really going to take modern legal- and psychobabble into the game world? Because it gets ridiculous in a hurry if you do. I do get the principle being argued, that in such cases there can be no such thing as consensual sex, but just don't think it makes much sense to argue that in the context.

Why?

Psychological SCIENCE has changed, and advanced--but the human mind was exactly the same in medieval europe as it is now.

Edit: Because I find murder less distasteful than rape, and in one case it is sex than murder, in the other it is rape then murder.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[sami jo]

I have made this argument elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating.  There is a modern day equivalent to what Zevran experienced: the "lost boys" of the Congo.  Those boys were ripped from everything they knew at a young age and forced to do horrible things or be killed.  They raped, murdered and tortured their way across the Congo.  Does this make their actions any less horrible?  No, certainly not to their victims; but I would find it difficult to argue that those boys were entirely responsible for what they became.  The Germans did much the same thing to those they threw in concentration camps.  Ellie Weisel's (concentration camp survivor, Hasidic scholar and Nobel prize winner for those who don't know the reference) books should convince anyone that it is possible to push an otherwise moral man to do extremely immoral things.  Any man can be broken and few will choose death if there is the slightest hope of survival.

Did Zevran do some horrible things?  Absolutely.  He will tell you so himself and tell you that he deeply regrets them.  He makes it quite clear that he learned all about sex at the ****house.  The place that sold him when he was seven.  SEVEN.  He was tortured by the Crows (take him to the Fade).  He took the job to kill the Warden to commit suicide because he felt so guilty about Rinna.  He doesn't respond well to the Warden or anyone else (Wynne) getting all judgemental, but who would?  The man has never been valued or cared for by anyone in his life.  There was no one to teach him morals.  He was purchased because the Crows thought he would be attractive to marks.  He makes it clear that he was forced to have sex by the Crows.  That would make him a rape victim.  Did the marks he had sex with equate the sex to rape?  Possibly.  He certainly did not.  He saw it as trying to give them one last bit of pleasure.  His views on sex have certainly been skewed but he isn't using it for power the way a traditional rapist does. 

Sociopath implies that the man is incapable of empathy for others.  That clearly is not true of Zevran, and not true from the very beginning.  He will argue strenuously that you save the elves and the mages.  He approves of acts of kindness to the helpless (unlike Morrigan and Sten).  The only time he actively encourages you to kill someone is Ruck, and he sees that as a mercy (as does Oghren).  And he tells you in repeated conversations that there is much he regrets.  Sociopaths do not feel remorse.

Zevran has by far the most tragic background of any of your companions, which is saying something since none of them comes to you entirely undamaged.  He comes to you seeing his sensitivity and empathy as a weakness, and it was a weakness as a Crow. 

Lelianna has done many of the same things, and yes she expresses regret.  The way to harden her is to tell her not to regret enjoying killing.  She escaped to the Chantry to save her life.  While there, she found peace and became a better person.  Zevran sends himself on a suicide mission to escape out of guilt.  One could argue that Lelianna was coerced into becoming a bard by the woman she loved and respected.  She enjoyed being a bard until her life was endanger.  Zevran was tortured into being an assassin and ****.  No one ever let him even imagine that he was loved until Rinna.  About the only companion who hasn't done something truly horrible at some point is Allistair (aside from Dog).  Of all of them, I would think that the circumstances under which Zevran did what he did would make him the easiest to forgive.

@ Creature 1: I find the comment that his marks were not tried in a court and convicted by a jury a bit odd.  There is no such thing in Antiva.  Zevran makes it quite clear that the royalty rules the country through the Crows.  There doesn't seem to be any such thing in Fereldon either (see the comments about what happens to anyone accused of being an apostate or maleficar and what happens to many young mages instead of being taken to the Circle).

Edit:  I would argue that Zevran has been taught, and sees his only worth as a sex object (not uncommon for sexual assault survivors and abuse survivors) and a killer.  He has been pretty explicitly told over and over that he is otherwise useless.  So, that is what he offers the Warden.  Where he is from, that is all he has to be proud of and that is what he brags to the Warden about at first.  He sees himself as worthless and is terrified of rejection.  That is not what he will share after he has been with you for a while, at least not in the same way.  Remember, his life is entirely in the Warden's hands.  If he is forced to leave, the Crows will kill him. 

Modifié par sami jo, 26 février 2010 - 08:33 .

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well once again, are we really going to take modern legal- and psychobabble into the game world? Because it gets ridiculous in a hurry if you do. I do get the principle being argued, that in such cases there can be no such thing as consensual sex, but just don't think it makes much sense to argue that in the context.

Why?

Psychological SCIENCE has changed, and advanced--but the human mind was exactly the same in medieval europe as it is now.

Edit: Because I find murder less distasteful than rape, and in one case it is sex than murder, in the other it is rape then murder.

The game world is brutal and the people in it all accept a level of the viciousness of life that is not comparable to the modern mindset.  We don't know much about Zevran's marks, for instance, but as I posted upthread, it is likely that they themselves play the same games as anyone else in Antivan politics.  So who is worse, the one who wields the knife on orders or the one who gives the order?  Their offers of sex are, in my view, them playing the game they all know according to the rules that they all accept.  The better player wins.  If they didn't accept these rules, then they wouldn't be on the field.

Re. seduction-then-murder being somehow better:  I suppose the reason I don't comprehend is that I don't accept the premise that what Zevran describes is rape.

I somehow feel the need to add that I am a woman IRL.  I do, however, think that the current mindset about these matters leads to exaggerated views.  A man can barely look sideways at a woman these days without it being considered sexual harrassment, and sexual harrassment is talked about as if it's rape, and that is before we even get into the whole "institutionalized patriarchy" juggernaut.  But probably not best to go into this- just an aside.

Re. Zevran making an oral sex joke when telling the story about the mage:  I am straining to recall what could be interpreted as such.

[AndreaDraco]

Addai67 wrote...
Re. Zevran making an oral sex joke when telling the story about the mage:  I am straining to recall what could be interpreted as such.

This.

I can't remember either and I stand by my point: never, in all the times I played through Zevran dialogues, his adventures struck me as implying sexual violence, rape or sociopathic tendencies. They were tales about his sheer luck, about his unbelievable charm and about the harshness of a Crow's upbringing.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well once again, are we really going to take modern legal- and psychobabble into the game world? Because it gets ridiculous in a hurry if you do. I do get the principle being argued, that in such cases there can be no such thing as consensual sex, but just don't think it makes much sense to argue that in the context.

Why?

Psychological SCIENCE has changed, and advanced--but the human mind was exactly the same in medieval europe as it is now.

Edit: Because I find murder less distasteful than rape, and in one case it is sex than murder, in the other it is rape then murder.

The game world is brutal and the people in it all accept a level of the viciousness of life that is not comparable to the modern mindset.  We don't know much about Zevran's marks, for instance, but as I posted upthread, it is likely that they themselves play the same games as anyone else in Antivan politics.  So who is worse, the one who wields the knife on orders or the one who gives the order?  Their offers of sex are, in my view, them playing the game they all know according to the rules that they all accept.  The better player wins.  If they didn't accept these rules, then they wouldn't be on the field.

Re. seduction-then-murder being somehow better:  I suppose the reason I don't comprehend is that I don't accept the premise that what Zevran describes is rape.

I somehow feel the need to add that I am a woman IRL.  I do, however, think that the current mindset about these matters leads to exaggerated views.  A man can barely look sideways at a woman these days without it being considered sexual harrassment, and sexual harrassment is talked about as if it's rape, and that is before we even get into the whole "institutionalized patriarchy" juggernaut.  But probably not best to go into this- just an aside.

Re. Zevran making an oral sex joke when telling the story about the mage:  I am straining to recall what could be interpreted as such.

Looked up the dialogue.  It was the way he said 'rather aptly, I might add' after a pause that made it come off as an oral sex joke.  Maybe I misread that.

Either way, they only had sex because she was trying to get out of dying: "After I killed the guards, she got down on her hands and knees and begged for her life... rather aptly, I might add. So I joined her in the carriage for the night and left the next morning."

Edit: As to the rest I can merely say that I disagree.  If a modern person couldn't consent in said situation neither could a Thedas person.  Human psychology doesn't change, we just develop mental illnesses more aptly, based upon circumstance. 

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 08:39 .

[Creature 1]

Addai67 wrote...
Re. Zevran making an oral sex joke when telling the story about the mage:  I am straining to recall what could be interpreted as such.

He doesn't.  IIRC he says, "She got down on her knees and begged for her life, quite prettily I might add."  I'm in the "shoulda just killed her then" camp (or not at all, but whatever) and it never occurred to me he might be making that kind of joke there. 

The impression he gives in those stories was that he thought the woman enjoyed the encounter at least as much as he did, which makes that interpretation much less likely. 

[Skeletondog]

Addai67 wrote...
Not to beat a dead horse, but do you also find Morrigan and Leliana to be unredeemable?  Or is it different for them since they are women?  (I ask that in sincerity, as some people really do think that.)

I don't judge men and women by a seperate moral code. My disgust towards sexually abusive situations is retained regardless of the sex of either party - so if it sounded like Morrigan or Leliana were sexually exploiting people who allowed it only for fear of their lives, I would find it equally terrible.

However, as I said in my last post, I find myself preferring to take the interpretation that in Antivan culture it is plausible that someone would want sex in such a situation. Admittedly, I'm biased, as obviously I don't want to be disturbed, as I am when I view it as an abusive situation. In such a case, I would view Zevran, Leliana and Morrigan in the same light.

I typed some things up after that regarding redeemability, but now I feel I should probably leave that be, as that would open up a whole new conversation regarding sexual violence vs. pure violence vs. violence for pleasure - a conversation I honestly don't think I can stomach right now. Apologies, I don't mean to blow you off.

Krylo - while I appreciate what you're saying, I would point out that the line is, "she got on her knees and begged for her life, rather aptly I might say."  I wouldn't say that was neccessarily a reference to oral sex - that would be a very vague reference if it were.

[Nonvita]

Addai67 wrote...

The game world is brutal and the people in it all accept a level of the viciousness of life that is not comparable to the modern mindset.  We don't know much about Zevran's marks, for instance, but as I posted upthread, it is likely that they themselves play the same games as anyone else in Antivan politics.  So who is worse, the one who wields the knife on orders or the one who gives the order?  Their offers of sex are, in my view, them playing the game they all know according to the rules that they all accept.  The better player wins.  If they didn't accept these rules, then they wouldn't be on the field.


Re. Zevran making an oral sex joke when telling the story about the mage:  I am straining to recall what could be interpreted as such.

I pretty much agree with this. It's pretty obvious that the people he was sent to assassinate were doing things that would clearly make them targets. Personally I think they knew someone would come for them and were prepared to bargain their way out of things by 'playing the game,' as it were. The mage to me does not sound like some helpless victim, since it's clear she's extremely manipulative. Comparing Antiva to the real world just doesn't work because it's set up to be extremely different. I see some people putting Zevran's thought process in the context of Antiva, but I don't think people are also considering that the victims are Antivan as well, and are just as aware of how things work as anyone.

Edit: Good to know.

Modifié par Nonvita, 26 février 2010 - 08:44 .

[krylo]

Skeletondog wrote...

Krylo - while I appreciate what you're saying, I would point out that the line is, "she got on her knees and begged for her life, rather aptly I might say."  I wouldn't say that was neccessarily a reference to oral sex - that would be a very vague reference if it were.

Like I said, I may have misinterpreted it, but I'm remember the way he delivered it coming off as Zevran utilizing a double entendre, as he is VERY apt to do.  Constantly.  

[Skeletondog]

HURF DURF and the 'rather aptly' comment is already addressed during the time it takes for me to post that comment



man, because of my avatar I'm reading all my comments as if they're coming from a chicken. a squeamish, overanalytical chicken.



this is awesome.

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...

Skeletondog wrote...

Krylo - while I appreciate what you're saying, I would point out that the line is, "she got on her knees and begged for her life, rather aptly I might say."  I wouldn't say that was neccessarily a reference to oral sex - that would be a very vague reference if it were.

Like I said, I may have misinterpreted it, but I'm remember the way he delivered it coming off as Zevran utilizing a double entendre, as he is VERY apt to do.  Constantly.  

Maybe we just have filthy, dirty minds because I heard it as a joke too. She definitely honked the bobo.

[JosieJ]

krylo wrote...

JosieJ wrote...

krylo wrote...

I'd probably
just be like "No seriously, you guys are right he's not one, my bad on
using the word without qualifiers" but then I'd have nothing to do.

And there you've just negated the whole post I just spent 20 minutes composing, so I'll cease my hair-splitting now!

Sorry...

If you still have it saved I'd really like to read it, honest!

If you spent 20 minutes on it, it's probably pretty interesting.

Sorry, deep-sixed it.  It's not anything that people haven't already said.  (And it was only a paragraph--it only took me 20 minutes because I type slow!)

[krylo]

Monica21 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Skeletondog wrote...

Krylo - while I appreciate what you're saying, I would point out that the line is, "she got on her knees and begged for her life, rather aptly I might say."  I wouldn't say that was neccessarily a reference to oral sex - that would be a very vague reference if it were.

Like I said, I may have misinterpreted it, but I'm remember the way he delivered it coming off as Zevran utilizing a double entendre, as he is VERY apt to do.  Constantly.  

Maybe we just have filthy, dirty minds because I heard it as a joke too. She definitely honked the bobo.

Well, I am glad I am not alone in my interpretation of that line, then!

I was beginning to think I was crazy.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...
Looked up the dialogue.  It was the way he said 'rather aptly, I might add' after a pause that made it come off as an oral sex joke.  Maybe I misread that.

All I can say is that it never occurred to me to hear it that way.

Either way, they only had sex because she was trying to get out of dying: "After I killed the guards, she got down on her hands and knees and begged for her life... rather aptly, I might add. So I joined her in the carriage for the night and left the next morning."

...yes, get out of dying by a) killing him first or appealing to his sympathy and then tricking him.  Excuse me if I don't find the picture of innocent woman-terrible man very fitting to the reality of the situation.  As I said in my earlier post, they were both playing a game.  In this case, she was the one who actually played it better, since he was in fact prepared to let her go.

Edit: As to the rest I can merely say that I disagree.  If a modern person couldn't consent in said situation neither could a Thedas person. 

I do disagree, entirely.  Most modern people couldn't wring a chicken's neck, yet they eat chicken without a second thought.  We quail at aches and pains that were so beneath notice that they did not even have a name in past centuries.  Human nature hasn't changed much, but that is not to say that we are not very different people than our ancestors.

[krylo]

Addai67 wrote...
I do disagree, entirely.  Most modern people couldn't wring a chicken's neck, yet they eat chicken without a second thought.  We quail at aches and pains that were so beneath notice that they did not even have a name in past centuries.  Human nature hasn't changed much, but that is not to say that we are not very different people than our ancestors.

And most Orlesian noble women probably couldn't wring a chicken's neck either.  I doubt even the Fereldan noblewomen could.

That's personal familiarity and has nothing to do with society as a whole.

Further--simply because they 'toughed out' aches and pains and didn't have names like 'chronic depression' or 'post traumatic stress disorder' does not, in any case, mean that such things did not exist.   The same things would cause the same scars in the psyche of these people as they do in modern man--the fact that said scars were far more COMMON does not make it RIGHT.

[Addai]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that those things did not exist, but that they did not have the same psychological impact on people as they do on us.