344 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Well, I may be blind and deaf, but I think Zevran's tales clearly states that she seduced him not to buy herself some time but to get revenge on him.

Get revenge?  The way I remember it was she wanted him to go to the Crows and petition to have the mark removed.  There was no revenge involved.

And no, his intent wasn't to kill her anymore. He wanted to let her go.

That only matters if she KNEW that, and if he would still want to let her go without sex.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

THIS I disagree with.  She actually took advantage of him.  

Edit: The one thing I really get the impression of with Zevran, especially after meeting Isabela, is he is not a man who is desperate or who needs to take advantage of women to get sex.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 09:46 .

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

There is the assumption here that the marks themselves are not used to using sex as a tool. In this culture and society, it really sounds like both genders are used to using sex as a way of getting things done.

I recognize this as a possibility, but there seems to be an inability to recognize that being given the choice between death and sex--even if it is an imagined choice--does not mean that you are consenting, and if you are not consenting you are being raped.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There is the assumption here that the marks themselves are not used to using sex as a tool. In this culture and society, it really sounds like both genders are used to using sex as a way of getting things done.

I recognize this as a possibility, but there seems to be an inability to recognize that being given the choice between death and sex--even if it is an imagined choice--does not mean that you are consenting, and if you are not consenting you are being raped.

I understand what you're saying, and yes, in the world I live in, this would be rape.  But in the world that is described, sex is treated VERY differently.  Just one of life's amusements.  He doesn't use sex as a way of control, a way of power; it's not even something he's doing for his own enjoyment primarily (which is odd, actually).

Edit: With the mage, he had already decided to spare her by the time he joined her in the carriage.  Whether or not the prelude was oral sex (and I took it as that as well), she was in no danger of being killed by the time it went beyond that.

Second edit: And I also don't see it as sex or death.  I see it as more, they're going to die, and they try to turn the tables.  Since sex is used as a tool, it's just a tool that the marks are using.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

THIS I disagree with.  She actually took advantage of him.  

Edit: The one thing I really get the impression of with Zevran, especially after meeting Isabela, is he is not a man who is desperate or who needs to take advantage of women to get sex.

If he didn't have a knife to her throat, at the point she was begging for her life, it was at the very least in his hands. How could she possibly have been in a position to take advantage of him at that point? After the fact, yes she did take advantage, but certainly not at their first meeting.

As for Zevran being desperate, of course he's not. Rapists use sex to display power, not because they want sex. I'm already kind of muddling my way through this anyway, but I what I do want made clear about my position is that Zevran is not a rapist, but I do believe because of his upbringing and culture, he doesn't know where the line is, if he even thinks there is a line.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

THIS I disagree with.  She actually took advantage of him.  

Edit: The one thing I really get the impression of with Zevran, especially after meeting Isabela, is he is not a man who is desperate or who needs to take advantage of women to get sex.

If he didn't have a knife to her throat, at the point she was begging for her life, it was at the very least in his hands. How could she possibly have been in a position to take advantage of him at that point? After the fact, yes she did take advantage, but certainly not at their first meeting.

As for Zevran being desperate, of course he's not. Rapists use sex to display power, not because they want sex. I'm already kind of muddling my way through this anyway, but I what I do want made clear about my position is that Zevran is not a rapist, but I do believe because of his upbringing and culture, he doesn't know where the line is, if he even thinks there is a line.

I think the line itself is drawn in a very different place in that world.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...

Honestly the oral doesn't matter.

It does matter if the scenario you and the other poster are suggesting, that the woman was trying to win her life based on how well she performed that act, is really what happened.  If that is how I saw that situation, I would find the other players' objections much more understandable.

What matters is whether or not one can be claimed to be able to fully consent to sex when their options are 'die or have sex'.

I don't think it does matter, because the question is not framed correctly IMO.  The way you are framing it assumes the women are helpless victims and Zevran holds all the power.  At least in the mage's case, we know for a fact that she was not a helpless victim.  The other woman sounds like she was more of an amateur, but also playing the same game.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There is the assumption here that the marks themselves are not used to using sex as a tool. In this culture and society, it really sounds like both genders are used to using sex as a way of getting things done.

I recognize this as a possibility, but there seems to be an inability to recognize that being given the choice between death and sex--even if it is an imagined choice--does not mean that you are consenting, and if you are not consenting you are being raped.

I understand what you're saying, and yes, in the world I live in, this would be rape.  But in the world that is described, sex is treated VERY differently.  Just one of life's amusements.  He doesn't use sex as a way of control, a way of power; it's not even something he's doing for his own enjoyment primarily (which is odd, actually).

Edit: With the mage, he had already decided to spare her by the time he joined her in the carriage.  Whether or not the prelude was oral sex (and I took it as that as well), she was in no danger of being killed by the time it went beyond that.

See, I don't need people to say, "Oh yeah, Zev definitely raped her" or "Oh she was definitely non-consenting", HOWEVER it deeply disturbs me that some people can't even fathom the idea of that situation BEING analogus to rape.

It makes me worry for their future girl/boyfriends.

"Hey, she may have been so drunk she couldn't see straight, and called me by the wrong name, but she came onto me!  OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PERFECTLY CONSENSUAL AND NOT DATE RAPE AT ALL!"

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

See, I don't need people to say, "Oh yeah, Zev definitely raped her" or "Oh she was definitely non-consenting", HOWEVER it deeply disturbs me that some people can't even fathom the idea of that situation BEING analogus to rape.

It makes me worry for their future girl/boyfriends.

"Hey, she may have been so drunk she couldn't see straight, and called me by the wrong name, but she came onto me!  OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PERFECTLY CONSENSUAL AND NOT DATE RAPE AT ALL!"

As a parent, that is a nightmare for me for my daughters.  However, I don't see the Zevran stories as coming off that way at ALL.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

See, I don't need people to say, "Oh yeah, Zev definitely raped her" or "Oh she was definitely non-consenting", HOWEVER it deeply disturbs me that some people can't even fathom the idea of that situation BEING analogus to rape.

It makes me worry for their future girl/boyfriends.

"Hey, she may have been so drunk she couldn't see straight, and called me by the wrong name, but she came onto me!  OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PERFECTLY CONSENSUAL AND NOT DATE RAPE AT ALL!"

As a parent, that is a nightmare for me for my daughters.  However, I don't see the Zevran stories as coming off that way at ALL.

The thing is, I don't think Zevran has to say "Have sex with me or die."

These women just have to think that "I'm going to die, oh god I'm going to die... but maybe if I seduce him I won't die?  Maybe I have a chance then?"

And then it's rape.  They aren't consenting to Zevran.  They're consenting to the chance of not being killed.

The idea that people don't think that even CAN constitute rape is... just... ugh.

[AndreaDraco]

krylo wrote...
]See, I don't need people to say, "Oh yeah, Zev definitely raped her" or "Oh she was definitely non-consenting", HOWEVER it deeply disturbs me that some people can't even fathom the idea of that situation BEING analogus to rape.

It makes me worry for their future girl/boyfriends.

"Hey, she may have been so drunk she couldn't see straight, and called me by the wrong name, but she came onto me!  OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PERFECTLY CONSENSUAL AND NOT DATE RAPE AT ALL!"

This is insulting. Deeply insulting.

I perfectly know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Then again, I'm glad I'm not a bigot and I'm able to see the fictional story at hand as it is: a dark tale about two adults both of them using sex to gain something. There's nothing in this akin to rape for me.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

I take it you then interpret his later statement that Rinna begged him not to kill her as sexual innuendo, as well?  I just don't see it.  Because he says that she got on her knees?  Maybe she, you know, got on her knees and begged?  As in, just begged- not "begged winkwink say no more"?

I see that you're utterly convinced, I just don't see how you can be.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 10:03 .

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...
I perfectly know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Then again, I'm glad I'm not a bigot and I'm able to see the fictional story at hand as it is: a dark tale about two adults both of them using sex to gain something. There's nothing in this akin to rape for me.

To quote myself: These women just have to think that "I'm going to die, oh god I'm going to die... but maybe if I seduce him I won't die?  Maybe I have a chance then?"

Can you honestly tell me that both of them, while seducing Zevran was fully NOT thinking something along those lines?


And no, the comment toward Rinna is worded differently and delivered differently.  It doesn't have any connotations of sex.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 10:06 .

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I would just like to point out that the BJ is the interpretation of yourself and krylo on rather thin grounds.  You're then wanting to make sexual abuse out of the mark's willingness to have sex with Zevran in order to turn the tables on him, which is a further stretch of interpretation.

Man, this discussion is weird.

So, you think the mage was a really good debater in high school or something? The "begging on her knees... rather aptly" is not thin grounds. I'm actually surprised that few others admitted to seeing it that way. And for the record, I'm not claiming sexual abuse. Reread my post. I'm claiming he took advantage of her.

I take it you then interpret his later statement that Rinna begged him not to kill her as sexual innuendo, as well?  I just don't see it.  Because he says that she got on her knees?  Maybe she, you know, got on her knees and begged?  As in, just begged- not "begged winkwink say no more"?

I see that you're utterly convinced, I just don't see how you can be.

The way he tells the story with Rinna is entirely different. He tells it with regret. The story with the mage is "wink wink nudge nudge youknowwhatImean" complete with a raised eyebrow and a smile.

[AndreaDraco]

krylo wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
I perfectly know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Then again, I'm glad I'm not a bigot and I'm able to see the fictional story at hand as it is: a dark tale about two adults both of them using sex to gain something. There's nothing in this akin to rape for me.

To quote myself: These women just have to think that "I'm going to die, oh god I'm going to die... but maybe if I seduce him I won't die?  Maybe I have a chance then?"

Can you honestly tell me that both of them, while seducing Zevran was fully NOT thinking something along those lines?

After your derogatory comment up above, I refuse to continue this conversation with a person who easily resort to insults and petty accusations ("I fear for their girl/boyfriends") to prove his faulty points.

@Monica: I understand your point about the difference in tones between the two conversation, but you have to admit that in the Mage's conversation, Zevran doesn't talk about the women if not in a pretty appreciative way. He isn't derogatory, he recognized being played at, he recognizes her skill at the game and even pities her for her end.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...
The way he tells the story with Rinna is entirely different. He tells it with regret. The story with the mage is "wink wink nudge nudge youknowwhatImean" complete with a raised eyebrow and a smile.

The situation is also entirely different, but I see no more evidence of sexual innuendo in his story about the mage than when the same word is used about Rinna.  Simply because he uses a casual tone, even relishing the tale (he is responding to the PC's request for an "adventure," in that case), implies no such thing.  Maybe I'm naive, but I take it to mean he was moved by her words and taken in by her beauty, as he tells you he was.

I think this might come down to how one chooses to see the character.  As another poster (AndreaDraco, perhaps) said, I see Zevran as a gentleman of Antiva.  That is not the same as a gentleman of Olde England, let alone modern Europe or North America, but it rules out the kind of crude, exploitative view of him that other players obviously take for granted.  I think you can only take the view of Zevran presented here if you assume that he is sleazy and sadistic, which to my mind means a person doesn't know the character at all.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
The way he tells the story with Rinna is entirely different. He tells it with regret. The story with the mage is "wink wink nudge nudge youknowwhatImean" complete with a raised eyebrow and a smile.

The situation is also entirely different, but I see no more evidence of sexual innuendo in his story about the mage than when the same word is used about Rinna.  Simply because he uses a casual tone, even relishing the tale (he is responding to the PC's request for an "adventure," in that case), implies no such thing.  Maybe I'm naive, but I take it to mean he was moved by her words and taken in by her beauty, as he tells you he was.

I think this might come down to how one chooses to see the character.  As another poster (AndreaDraco, perhaps) said, I see Zevran as a gentleman of Antiva.  That is not the same as a gentleman of Olde England, let alone modern Europe or North America, but it rules out the kind of crude, exploitative view of him that other players obviously take for granted.  I think you can only take the view of Zevran presented here if you assume that he is sleazy and sadistic, which to my mind means a person doesn't know the character at all.

I do not see the situation with the mage as crude, sleazy, or sadistic. I see Zevran as a man who enjoys certain pleasures and, as he says, appreciates them done well. He probably would have spared her for the effort, even if it wasn't entirely satisfactory.

What I don't understand is how one can argue on one hand that sex is an inherent part of Antivan culture, but then on the other hand say, "Of course she didn't give him a ******. That's just crude."

[AndreaDraco]

Monica21 wrote...

What I don't understand is how one can argue on one hand that sex is an inherent part of Antivan culture, but then on the other hand say, "Of course she didn't give him a ******. That's just crude."

I know I never said that

[krylo]

[quote]AndreaDraco wrote...
After your derogatory comment up above, I refuse to continue this conversation with a person who easily resort to insults and petty accusations ("I fear for their girl/boyfriends") to prove his faulty points.[/quote]
A) Then why reply to me at all?

 You called me a bigot, which to me is far more 'petty' and nonsensical than me making a rhetorical claim given your apparent inability to notice that consensual sex doesn't include the fear of death.

C) If you're calling my points faulty you are, by definition, continuing the discussion.
[/quote]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

 Zevran presented here if you assume
that he is sleazy and sadistic, which to my mind means a person doesn't
know the character at all.[/quote]

Only if he is cognizant of what he did wrong.  Much as the people of Orlais don't view there being anything wrong with the Chevaliers taking 'privledge' with any woman they want, and most likely they don't view doing so as inflicting pain or being 'sleazy', Zevran would necessarily be sleazy or sadistic for operating in a manner that his upbringing has taught him is ok--even if it isn't.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

I do not see the situation with the mage as crude, sleazy, or sadistic. I see Zevran as a man who enjoys certain pleasures and, as he says, appreciates them done well. He probably would have spared her for the effort, even if it wasn't entirely satisfactory.

So you think he spared her because she gave him oral sex, but that doesn't seem crude or sleazy to you?  Why ever not?

What I don't understand is how one can argue on one hand that sex is an inherent part of Antivan culture, but then on the other hand say, "Of course she didn't give him a ******. That's just crude."

I believe he spared her because he was moved by her appeal and by her beauty.  The latter is indeed a bit crude- if she was ugly and less well-spoken would she have been able to move him?- but that is part of his "moral of the story" (i.e. that he needs to be professional no matter what).  However, if I really believed it went down as you say (no pun intended, heh), then I could see why people would be more disturbed by this bit than I am.

I suppose the bottom line is that I didn't and don't hear those words the way you do, so it puts a different light on the scenario from the get-go.  I can run the conversation again to see if I get where you're coming from, but I've played the game enough that I think it's going to be just one of those things we don't know unless Gaider speaks.

[AndreaDraco]

krylo wrote...
 You called me a bigot, which to me is far more 'petty' and nonsensical than me making a rhetorical claim given your apparent inability to notice that consensual sex doesn't include the fear of death.

I said I wasn't a bigot. Not that you were a bigot.

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...

krylo wrote...
 You called me a bigot, which to me is far more 'petty' and nonsensical than me making a rhetorical claim given your apparent inability to notice that consensual sex doesn't include the fear of death.

I said I wasn't a bigot. Not that you were a bigot.

But the implications were clear, in that you were directly contrasting yourself and your views with me and my views in that statement.

[AndreaDraco]

To be completely clear, I don't think you're a bigot. I only think that you're reading too much into Zevran's story, while Zevran's character as a whole, his background and his slow but steady process of growth and maturation show that the idea of rape is utterly alien to him.

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...

the idea of rape is utterly alien to him.

I agree with this, I simply don't think it precludes the possibility of him comitting the crime unwittingly.

I also recognize that whether or not he DID is a huge gray area, but I don't like the insistence that there is no way that a woman consenting to sex after being threatened with assassination was not thinking, "oh god I'm going to die oh god I'm going to die, maybe if I seduce him I won't die," or, worse, that consenting to sex, regardless of the end goal, under that situation is still a true consent and not similar to consenting when completely drunk, or consenting to a boss when he's threatening to fire you--i.e. consent under duress/when not thinking clearly.  Which is to say, still rape.