344 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I do not see the situation with the mage as crude, sleazy, or sadistic. I see Zevran as a man who enjoys certain pleasures and, as he says, appreciates them done well. He probably would have spared her for the effort, even if it wasn't entirely satisfactory.

So you think he spared her because she gave him oral sex, but that doesn't seem crude or sleazy to you?  Why ever not?

Context. It was one of if not his first kill, right? He's young, she's pretty, and she knows the one thing she can do to make him sympathetic to her. It worked.

[AndreaDraco]

@krylo: As you say, it's a grey area. I don't think so myself and I explained to you how I see the whole situation. Believe me: if he said something to suggest that he had taken pleasure in her fear, that she was unwilling and reluctant, that she used sex only as a mean to have her life spared, I could agree with you. But in his story Zevran makes very clear that this particular mage had an agenda of her own.

As for the other marks, yes, he killed them. Some of them even after the sex. But nothing he said ever seemed to imply - at least to me - that he used - or was used to use - sex in a menacing, threatening or non-consensual way. He's open-minded about sex, about everything in life, and - in my experience - openmindness is often a sign of intelligence.

Modifié par AndreaDraco, 26 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[krylo]

AndreaDraco wrote...

As you say, it's a grey area. I don't think so myself and I explained to you how I see the whole situation. Believe me: if he said something to suggest that he had taken pleasure in her fear, that she was unwilling and reluctant, that she used sex only as a mean to have her life spared, I could agree with you. But in his story Zevran makes very clear that this particular mage had an agenda of her own.

As for the other marks, yes, he killed them. Some of them even after the sex. But nothing he said ever seemed to imply - at least to me - that he used - or was used to use - sex in a menacing, threatening or non-consensual way. He's open-minded about sex, about everything in life, and - in my experience - openmindness is often a sign of intelligence.

I agree with all this, I just don't think that it's very plausible that they weren't scared for their life when they consented, and I think that throws this whole thing into a grey area.  I believe if the positions were reversed and he were the victim he would, because of his very very open view of sex, have no problem consenting in those positions.  And I think there is where the grey area lies.  He may not have ever stopped to think that these girls could be terrified instead of manipulative or lusty.

I'm not saying he definitely raped someone.  I am saying it is a valid interpretation of events given modern psychology and the events he explained.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I do not see the situation with the mage as crude, sleazy, or sadistic. I see Zevran as a man who enjoys certain pleasures and, as he says, appreciates them done well. He probably would have spared her for the effort, even if it wasn't entirely satisfactory.

So you think he spared her because she gave him oral sex, but that doesn't seem crude or sleazy to you?  Why ever not?

Context. It was one of if not his first kill, right? He's young, she's pretty, and she knows the one thing she can do to make him sympathetic to her. It worked.

Ok, that seems reasonable to me.  It never occurred to me to think of it this way and I still don't buy it really, but I can see where you're coming from.  It wouldn't be the first time something went over my head- I was always the last one to know which one of my friends was hooking up with whom. 

[Creature 1]

AndreaDraco wrote...
This is insulting. Deeply insulting.

I perfectly know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Then again, I'm glad I'm not a bigot and I'm able to see the fictional story at hand as it is: a dark tale about two adults both of them using sex to gain something. There's nothing in this akin to rape for me.

You're kind of an idiot.  How the heck was that post bigoted? 

Edit:  Oh, by the way, no "no offense" in the above. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 27 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[AndreaDraco]

Creature 1 wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
This is insulting. Deeply insulting.

I perfectly know the difference between consensual sex and rape. Then again, I'm glad I'm not a bigot and I'm able to see the fictional story at hand as it is: a dark tale about two adults both of them using sex to gain something. There's nothing in this akin to rape for me.

You're kind of an idiot.  How the heck was that post bigoted? 

Edit:  Oh, by the way, no "no offense" in the above. 

There must be some kind of problem on your part. And I already clarified what I intented to the person I was quoting. So, if you really needed to pop in, you should have got your fact straights, no?

[AndreaDraco]

krylo wrote...
I agree with all this, I just don't think that it's very plausible that they weren't scared for their life when they consented, and I think that throws this whole thing into a grey area.  I believe if the positions were reversed and he were the victim he would, because of his very very open view of sex, have no problem consenting in those positions.  And I think there is where the grey area lies.  He may not have ever stopped to think that these girls could be terrified instead of manipulative or lusty.

I'm not saying he definitely raped someone.  I am saying it is a valid interpretation of events given modern psychology and the events he explained.

I may not entirely agree (mainly on the fact that, in my opinion, the Mage was definitely using sex in a manipulative way), but I understand your point and I once again excuse if my words were badly chosen in my above post. I really think that - if tones are kept down - this discussion has interesting potential.

[Gilsa]

@Skeletondog



I had the same initial reactions you did when listening to Zevran talk about the first two marks. The first story no big deal. The woman tried to turn the tables on him and his lesson was not to fall for that kind of thing again. He did let her go. The second story was when it got a lot grayer. The mark knew she was going to be killed, but they had sex anyway. His opinion was that if you're going to die, why not go out on a high note? This brings in consideration his point of view on the sex without knowing how his mark actually felt about it. Were they using it as a weapon or did they feel that it was a necessary evil in order to evade their deaths? No true way of knowing for sure. And it ties back to what you said:



"Frankly, I get this feeling that the writers weren't really considering the weight of what Zev was describing. The way it's told, it's as if the stories are suppossed to be funny - and there's no option to discuss or react in a way you'd expect a character to be able to react to a rapist. You can say "you used her!" as if it's on par with sleeping with someone to steal their wallet - besides that, nada."



Time and time again, the writers have posted on the board about details that have slipped through or hindsight being 20/20 about a situation in the game. Given the way the whole conversation flowed, I considered this to be more of the writing not translating very well rather than Zevran using the situation to his advantage. The city elf rape scene was handled delicately. It wouldn't make sense for the game to then drop the ball with a romantic partner being a potential rapist. Also the writer may not have forseen the scene being interpreted in such a manner.



Furthermore, there are situations in the game where the intent meant to be one thing, but the delivery changed things up. A good example is taking Wynne to the gauntlet. It is well established that Wynne has the same generic responses to the PC in terms of whether the PC regrets their actions in origins or not, but her standard responses come across badly in the city elf origin. It implies that the city elf was at fault for allowing the rape to happen. That kind of dialogue probably fell through the cracks during development and I suspect this may be the case with the Zevran dialogue in talking about having sex with his victims before assassination.

[sylvanaerie]

errant_knight wrote...

Y'know, I hadn't fully considered that. I mean, I went with the calm and wily even while finding it distasteful, but the way you put it, it's much worse. I'd never got as far as really examining that aspect of the character, though.

My PCs are friendly with Zevran, but not close, based on the fact that he thinks being an assassain is just fine and actively enjoys killing. They feel badly for him and want to give him a chance, but find his world view pretty disturbing.

krylo wrote...

I don't think he's supposed to be justifiable, honestly.

He is an unabashed sociopath. He kills and he enjoys it. He admits it openly. He compares it to sex.

However, Zevran is supposed to be REDEEMABLE, and that's the key figure.

When you discover him he is a monster, there is no doubt about that, but you can 'fix' him. Lead him away from that path, and make him come out much better for it.

Yea, that's why my PCs can never bring themselves to just kill him, and why they talk to him and give him the meaningful gifts. He's never had a chance, and he/she wants to give him one. That's also why my PC asks him to stick around at the end of the game.

Ditto.  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wow. An entire thread intelligently debating certain questionable aspects of Zevran's character that ISN'T about his sexuality, or about killing that "c*** sucking gay elf". I must say, I am enjoying this. Give me a moment to savor this.....



There. My 2 cents: I understand the Op's question and point. The first time I heard that convo with Zevran in my first game, it gave me pause, and I thought to myself "uh...I did not just hear that...did I?" But after not just getting to know Zevran, but learning about Antiva from codexes and NPCs, Zevran's tale took on a different light, for me.



Antiva is one seriously screwy f***ed up country, if you can call it a country. And from what I've seen, their nobles and big wigs seem to be into some seriously weird ****. I get the impression that Antivans seem to get off on sex vs death situations. It's like some big kinky game to them. If a mark gets picked for assassination, it's almost like a challenge to see if they can seduce their way out of it, with the winner coming out alive, but if they don't, well...it's the favorite way to go out.. Like an extreme game of Russian Roulette, or something. But I didn't get the impression that said mage was only begging for her life and letting Zevran have his way with her in the hopes he might spare her. It sounded more like she was trying to outwit him, and thus, come out ahead in the big game.



That's how I took it, anyway.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I do not see the situation with the mage as crude, sleazy, or sadistic. I see Zevran as a man who enjoys certain pleasures and, as he says, appreciates them done well. He probably would have spared her for the effort, even if it wasn't entirely satisfactory.

So you think he spared her because she gave him oral sex, but that doesn't seem crude or sleazy to you?  Why ever not?

Context. It was one of if not his first kill, right? He's young, she's pretty, and she knows the one thing she can do to make him sympathetic to her. It worked.

Ok, Monica, I ran the conversation (on my HNM, so I was primed to listen for wink wink nudge nudge LOL) and I can see what you are saying but only because of his word choice, not his tone or facial expression.  He says "she got on her hands and knees" which does seem to be... [alistair voice] curious [/alistair]... wording.  I had remembered it as "on her knees."  So I grant that your interpretation is a good one.

I'm going to stop thinking about this now. 

Modifié par Addai67, 27 février 2010 - 04:57 .

[David Gaider]

Zevran laughs at your need for justification.



...and then he makes out with your sister.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
Ok, Monica, I ran the conversation (on my HNM, so I was primed to listen for wink wink nudge nudge LOL) and I can see what you are saying but only because of his word choice, not his tone or facial expression.  He says "she got on her hands and knees" which does seem to be... [alistair voice] curious [/alistair]... wording.  I had remembered it as "on her knees."  So I grant that your interpretation is a good one.

I'm going to stop thinking about this now. 

Just remember that I'm not discarding the idea that I just have a dirty mind and "went there." ;-) Unless a writer *coughDavidcough* says yes or no one way or the other, and I suspect they'll just leave it to the player's interpretation, there's no knowing. Obviously, either interpretation is valid and forms how you view the character.

[Nonvita]

David Gaider wrote...

Zevran laughs at your need for justification.

...and then he makes out with your sister.

MAJOR PLOT HOLE.
I don't have a sister...

Explain yourself out of this one, Mr. Gaider.

[FallingCowboy26]

actually the whole sex/violence thing is a popular female fetish...go head..ask around! Hey, if Zevran's targets were supposed to be killed, there must have been a reason...sexual favors for my life? easy choice!

[EccentricSage]

David Gaider wrote...

Zevran laughs at your need for justification.

...and then he makes out with your sister.

XD  *dying*  (but on a high note!)

FallingCowboy26 wrote...

actually the whole sex/violence
thing is a popular female fetish...go head..ask around! Hey, if
Zevran's targets were supposed to be killed, there must have been a
reason...sexual favors for my life? easy choice!

Thank you!  LOL  People have a lot of freeky kinks, and it seems a lot of people on this forum have chosen not to... look into that side of the internet.  I'll admit it!!!  I have a fetish for violent sex and masochism.  And when I imagine what it would be like to be an Antivan, and to find out there is a mark on me... if Zevran were the assassin I would definetly take him up on an offer of a night of incredible passion.  I do see the logic of 'if you have to die, have some pleasure first.'  Maybe that makes me a sick and twisted person, but oh well.  Life goes on.

Further more, I find it truly bazar that anyone would see rape as worse than murder, as at least one poster stated.  You'll feal however you will feal, but personaly, I'd much rather be raped... especialy if it's the 'statutory type', than murdered.  Hell, if I could bargain my way out of any bad situation with sex, I'd probably be having a lot more sex.  I think diferent people have a diferent state of mind.  I think most people in Antiva who 'play the game have a more extream state of mind than me.  *shrugs*  So, yeah, it's dark and disturbing, but being able to go there by proxy through a fictional setting is a fun way to toy with ideas and experiences that would be too dangerous to toy with IRL. 

I second those who enjoy this thread, though.  It's great to see people having intelectual debate about the questions dark fantasies bring up.  It shows the depth of this game is not lost on people.  I hope they'll go further in the future for having seen such exilent results.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 27 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[Monica21]

FallingCowboy26 wrote...

actually the whole sex/violence thing is a popular female fetish...go head..ask around! Hey, if Zevran's targets were supposed to be killed, there must have been a reason...sexual favors for my life? easy choice!

I would not say that violence is a popular fetish, unless you're confusing it with something else. Not sure I want to go there on this board. I would say it's a pretty common (if disturbing) theme in your throw-away paperback romances. You know, the ones where a random Viking kills your family and captures you, then seduces you with his supreme masculinity.

[errant_knight]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Ok, Monica, I ran the conversation (on my HNM, so I was primed to listen for wink wink nudge nudge LOL) and I can see what you are saying but only because of his word choice, not his tone or facial expression.  He says "she got on her hands and knees" which does seem to be... [alistair voice] curious [/alistair]... wording.  I had remembered it as "on her knees."  So I grant that your interpretation is a good one.

I'm going to stop thinking about this now. 

Just remember that I'm not discarding the idea that I just have a dirty mind and "went there." ;-) Unless a writer *coughDavidcough* says yes or no one way or the other, and I suspect they'll just leave it to the player's interpretation, there's no knowing. Obviously, either interpretation is valid and forms how you view the character.

Well...that's what I thought it meant and I don't think I have a particularly dirty mind. I was immensely surprised by some people's interpretation of the lampost conversation.

[EccentricSage]

errant_knight wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Ok, Monica, I ran the conversation (on my HNM, so I was primed to listen for wink wink nudge nudge LOL) and I can see what you are saying but only because of his word choice, not his tone or facial expression.  He says "she got on her hands and knees" which does seem to be... [alistair voice] curious [/alistair]... wording.  I had remembered it as "on her knees."  So I grant that your interpretation is a good one.

I'm going to stop thinking about this now. 

Just remember that I'm not discarding the idea that I just have a dirty mind and "went there." ;-) Unless a writer *coughDavidcough* says yes or no one way or the other, and I suspect they'll just leave it to the player's interpretation, there's no knowing. Obviously, either interpretation is valid and forms how you view the character.

Well...that's what I thought it meant and I don't think I have a particularly dirty mind. I was immensely surprised by some people's interpretation of the lampost conversation.

I think it's because people EXPECT it of Zevran, not of Alistair.  Thing with Zevran is that he's not what he seems.  I thought that line about on her knees might be a double antandra at first, but couldn't be sure and didn't want to project onto the character.  As I got to know the character, it struck me that he's got a very sensitive and compasionet side that he tries to disguise. 

Being a Crow must have been hell, haveing a side that wants to speek out against injustices in the world, but knowing you must kill people to live, and that any show of sentiment might get you ether tortured, for you clearly must not be broken, or killed outright.  He realy doesn't strike me as a character who would take pleasure in tormenting a woman.  He seems to be someone who does NOT want others to suffer.  Does NOT want to bring death without dignity.  As twisted as it may seem, I realy think he truly sees offering sex to his marks, 'hours of pleasure', as the only act of kindness he can get away with.  If you jokingly tell him he's a Saint amongst men after the poem story, he'll even tell you the Crows didn't think so.  So these acts were also a bit rebelious against the Crows, it would seem.  It makes sence, since sex was his only pleasure... and probably the only way he could bond with and experience any type of emotional conection with others without the Crows noticing and trying to beat the sentimentality out of him.  That's how I've come to see the character.

So, to me, a BJ wouldn't be in character.  But then, he was young, tortured, inexperience... maybe he did go that far, and just didn't understand that it would not be fun for his mark?  We'll never know.  But I like to think this was made very ambiguous so that we'd first see his stories in the worst possible light, and then, if we get to know him well, we'll have to completely re-evaluate what we thought, and realise we were partialy at least, projecting our own bias onto him.  Masterful writing, if that be the case.

[soignee]

All our characters have killed in dubious means. Just thought I'd bring that up.

[Jewsapalewsa]

WOW, I didn't think that I could like Zevran any less, but now, I would thoroughly like to smack his little elf ass around for that. I will keep an assassin around for a mission that required the constant dealing of death, But I refuse to keep a rapist around. Unless that is, that I am on a mission that required the constant dealing of rape, but that would never happen so.... Zevren is a rapist, I will most likely shank him on my next playthrough

[EccentricSage]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

WOW, I didn't think that I could like Zevran any less, but now, I would thoroughly like to smack his little elf ass around for that. I will keep an assassin around for a mission that required the constant dealing of death, But I refuse to keep a rapist around. Unless that is, that I am on a mission that required the constant dealing of rape, but that would never happen so.... Zevren is a rapist, I will most likely shank him on my next playthrough

Technically no.  You choose to interpret his character that way, as does OP.  His stories are too vague for anyone but the writers to know what the truth is.  But getting to know Zevran's character, you get to realising that he isn't cold blooded and does not like to see others suffering nor dying without dignity of a 'fair hunt'.  Which will then logicaly indicate that he probably would not rape women, as that is inherantly cruel and undignified.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 27 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

David Gaider wrote...

Zevran laughs at your need for justification.

...and then he makes out with your sister.

You really do enjoy taunting us, don't you?

[CalJones]

errant_knight wrote...

Well...that's what I thought it meant and I don't think I have a particularly dirty mind. I was immensely surprised by some people's interpretation of the lampost conversation.

I have a filthy, filthy mind and the lampost conversation was never in any doubt in my mind.

[Jewsapalewsa]

soignee wrote...

All our characters have killed in dubious means. Just thought I'd bring that up.

Yes, but none of us raped in dubious means. At least I didn't.

Modifié par Jewsapalewsa, 27 février 2010 - 11:27 .