344 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

EccentricSage wrote...
Technically no.  You choose to interpret his character that way, as does OP.  His stories are too vague for anyone but the writers to know what the truth is.  But getting to know Zevran's character, you get to realising that he isn't cold blooded and does not like to see others suffering nor dying without dignity of a 'fair hunt'.  Which will then logicaly indicate that he probably would not rape women, as that is inherantly cruel and undignified.

Perfectly said!

And, David: amazing!

[ejoslin]

David Gaider wrote...

Zevran laughs at your need for justification.

...and then he makes out with your sister.

Coffee all over my keyboard. . . . *shakes fist*

[Sabriana]

I learned to never eat or drink anything when reading David's posts. Learned that early on. I think it was in the "Valen" threat over yonder.

[Jewsapalewsa]

EccentricSage wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

WOW, I didn't think that I could like Zevran any less, but now, I would thoroughly like to smack his little elf ass around for that. I will keep an assassin around for a mission that required the constant dealing of death, But I refuse to keep a rapist around. Unless that is, that I am on a mission that required the constant dealing of rape, but that would never happen so.... Zevren is a rapist, I will most likely shank him on my next playthrough

Technically no.  You choose to interpret his character that way, as does OP.  His stories are too vague for anyone but the writers to know what the truth is.  But getting to know Zevran's character, you get to realising that he isn't cold blooded and does not like to see others suffering nor dying without dignity of a 'fair hunt'.  Which will then logicaly indicate that he probably would not rape women, as that is inherantly cruel and undignified.

Technically yes, you just choose not to interperate him this way. 

That was sarcasm for effect.  I don't believe that either of our opinions are technically true.  Yours is no more factual that mine is and visa versa.  I do respect your opinion, however, I take offense that you elevate yours above mine as technically correct, while mine is just an interpretation.  

[Maria13]

[Wrong place]

Modifié par Maria13, 27 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[Addai]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

WOW, I didn't think that I could like Zevran any less, but now, I would thoroughly like to smack his little elf ass around for that. I will keep an assassin around for a mission that required the constant dealing of death, But I refuse to keep a rapist around. Unless that is, that I am on a mission that required the constant dealing of rape, but that would never happen so.... Zevren is a rapist, I will most likely shank him on my next playthrough

[Morrigan voice] Such eloquence. [/morrigan]

Modifié par Addai67, 27 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[David Gaider]

Some people will apparently read what they want to see into just about anything.



Zevran is not a rapist. Rape implies force, sex done against someone's will. His targets were seduced, yes, but deceit does not equal rape. Whatever you're seeing beyond that is your own doing.

[Addai]

Thank you, Mr. Gaider.

[krylo]

David Gaider wrote...

Some people will apparently read what they want to see into just about anything.

I find this vaguely offensive.

I'm not a fan of 'Death of the Author' or anything (link provided for the less experienced members of the board), but I think enough arguments have been provided here that there's a compelling case for non-completely consensual sex that such a line is unfounded.

Rape implies force

And find this somewhat naive--and would ask you to explain why, in states--where statutory rape laws usually involve a differential age of 2 years (meaning 18 year olds having sex with sixteen year olds are legal)--it is still illegal for said 18 year old to have sex with a 16 year old if they are in a position of power over them?  Why it can be considered sexual abuse for an employer to 'seduce' his employee but not another employee of equal, or lower standing to do the same?

Rape does not imply force.  It merely implies that one party was unwilling.

Seduction and deceit are not rape, this is true--but there was no deceit in either of Zevran's stories.  If there WERE we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now if you are willing to say that the marks he had sex with in his stories were not in a state of duress during sex, then I'll be willing to agree.  As I said the cultures are quite different and it's a rather nebulous gray area as to whether their psyches would be damaged by this.

However, I find your assertion that rape implies force to be disingenuous.


AND YES before anyone leaps on me, I WILL argue with the writers.  I won't argue with them about the ACTIONS taken, but if they seem to not understand what rape can actually consist of I will argue with them on that point.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[Jayelet]

Thank you, Mr. Gaider.

[errant_knight]

David Gaider wrote...

Some people will apparently read what they want to see into just about anything.

Zevran is not a rapist. Rape implies force, sex done against someone's will. His targets were seduced, yes, but deceit does not equal rape. Whatever you're seeing beyond that is your own doing.

While I don't think I would call Zevran a rapist, per se, I think the line is a little finer than that. I don't think you can really call it seduction when one of the parties thinks they're going to die. I also think this discussion is going to extremes on both sides.

[Jayelet]

you would call rapist to Mata Hari ...

But you know who is searching the Web.

[errant_knight]

Jayelet wrote...

you would call rapist to Mata Hari ...
But you know who is searching the Web.

Everyone knows who Mata Hari was... Er, don't they?

Anyhoo, as far as I know she was a spy, not an assassain. The people she was with were more than willing and in no fear of imminent death.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[AndreaDraco]

David Gaider wrote...

Some people will apparently read what they want to see into just about anything.

Zevran is not a rapist. Rape implies force, sex done against someone's will. His targets were seduced, yes, but deceit does not equal rape. Whatever you're seeing beyond that is your own doing.

Why isn't there an applauding emoticon? :innocent:

Thanks you, David.

[Addai]

krylo wrote...
And find this somewhat naive--and would ask you to explain why, in states--where statutory rape laws usually involve a differential age of 2 years (meaning 18 year olds having sex with sixteen year olds are legal)--it is still illegal for said 18 year old to have sex with a 16 year old if they are in a position of power over them?  Why it can be considered sexual abuse for an employer to 'seduce' his employee but not another employee of equal, or lower standing to do the same?

Because modern US laws, even nonsensical ones, are the obvious philosphical basis of an argument centering around a medieval dark fantasy.

*sigh*

I'm tired of this.  You have a right to your interpretation, and the right to bang your head against a brick wall too.

[David Gaider]

krylo wrote...
I find this vaguely offensive.

You don't need to be vague about it. Go ahead, be offended.

This reminds me a little of the female poster who blazed in here once to cry that the writers were misogynists because of the existence of the "stinky panties" line, and when everyone laughed at her she ran to her LJ to whine to her friends about what horrible, horrible people we were and her friends all expressed outrage at the state of the world if such people as us existed in it.

If you want to think of what Zevran did as rape -- meh. Go ahead. He's also a murderer, many times over. Picking it apart and trying to seperate his actions from the fact that he was there to murder these people and not solely to have sex with them (as if there were a fine line between the two, morally speaking) strikes me as a little tiresome. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[krylo]

David Gaider wrote...

krylo wrote...
I find this vaguely offensive.

You don't need to be vague about it. Go ahead, be offended.

But I only want to be vague about it.  I mean, it's not like you called my mom a **** or kicked a puppy or something.

...Then again, I don't really like puppies, so.

This reminds me a little of the female poster who blazed in here once to cry that the writers were misogynists because of the existence of the "stinky panties" line, and when everyone laughed at her she ran to her LJ to whine to her friends about what horrible, horrible people we were and her friends all expressed outrage at the state of the world if such people as us existed in it.

...Really?

This is a thing that happened?

Also, I'm not calling you/the writers terrible people or anything.

He's also a murderer, many times over.

So's the PC and every other member of the group.  Getting morally outraged over THAT would just be blase.

Picking it apart and trying to seperate his actions from the fact that he was there to murder these people and not solely to have sex with them strikes me as a little tiresome.

Well it's not about that.  If it were the same would apply to Leliana.  It's about the mental state of these people when he has sex with them.

Are they truly consenting to a last night of pleasure, or are they merely doing it because they are terrified and are hoping it means they won't get killed?  The former is much less... icky than the latter. 

As I said, you're the writer, so if you're going to say it was the former, well then I'll simply agree.

But then neither answer will destroy my enjoyment of the character.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 07:20 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

David Gaider wrote...

Some people will apparently read what they want to see into just about anything.

Zevran is not a rapist. Rape implies force, sex done against someone's will. His targets were seduced, yes, but deceit does not equal rape. Whatever you're seeing beyond that is your own doing.

*Applauds David*


@ OP

Zev is a killer but only because he was forced to be by the Crows at an early age.  Nowhere does he ever say he raped anyone.  He seduces people, women and men.  That's just what he does.  You don't have to like that he was an assassin if you don't want to, but please don't call him something that he wasn't. 


I actually have never finished a playthrough romancing Zevran, but I do love how well-written his character is and when you take the time to get to know his character, you find that he's a lot more in depth than he first appears to be when you meet him and has a lot of remorse.

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 27 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[Bryy_Miller]

krylo wrote...

Rape does not imply force.  It merely implies that one party was unwilling.

However, I find your assertion that rape implies force to be disingenuous.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I would think that anyone unwillingly inside someone else would need to be forced into the act. I mean, we're only talking about an act that can lead to STDs, babies, and physical/emotional scarring here. It's not rape because you're not in the mood.

[krylo]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

krylo wrote...

Rape does not imply force.  It merely implies that one party was unwilling.

However, I find your assertion that rape implies force to be disingenuous.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I would think that anyone unwillingly inside someone else would need to be forced into the act. I mean, we're only talking about an act that can lead to STDs, babies, and physical/emotional scarring here. It's not rape because you're not in the mood.

Earlier in this century LAST CENTURY (I'm getting old) in America women were seen to be owned by men.  A woman who didn't have sex with her husband whenever he wished would risk a very real beating with a very real switch (though no bigger around than the man's thumb).  Now, if a woman doesn't kick a man off of her, thus requiring no force from him to initiate the act, is it still rape if she didn't want it? 

By your logic the answer is no.

I would say the fact that she is acquiescing only because she knows that there is worse in store for her if she doesn't do it makes it rape.

How about if a woman is too drunk to stand straight and obviously isn't thinking clearly.  Is it perfectly consensual when you take advantage of her? 

What about if you slip her some rohypnol to get her into the mood?

Force is not a prerequisite of rape in many situations I could come up with.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 07:38 .

[krylo]

Maviarab wrote...

Oh and krylo (forgot and edits annoy me)...your bang on with your definition in the majority of countries, just because the mighty USA might say diff does make it so not.

I'm most familiar with US law but other countries feel similarly about sex under duress.


"Men who pay for a prostitute who has been forcibly trafficked into the country could also face rape charges."

That's Ye Olde England.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[Drasanil]

Quick question. if we're all so worked up about the exact consentitude of Zevran's exploits, doesn't that also make Morrigan a rapist -and the Warden an accessory to it-? Depending how it plays out (ie: get Loghain or Alistair to do it), it could easily be seen as sex under duress no? Screw the sleezy Swamp Witch or you die, that's a form of rape no?

Modifié par Drasanil, 27 février 2010 - 07:58 .

[krylo]

Drasanil wrote...

Quick question. if we're all so worked up about the exact consentitude of Zevran's exploits, doesn't that also make Morrigan a rapist? Depending how it plays out (ie: get Loghain or Alistair to do it), it could easily be seen as sex under duress no? Screw the sleezy Swamp Witch or you die, that's a form of rape no?

Morrigan isn't the one placing the psychological force on the characters to have sex with her.  Not directly, anyway.  The Grey Wardens and the Archdemon are, but neither of them realize that sex with Morrigan is an 'out' so...

No.

Edit: I would say it's rape in the same way that tripping and fatally falling down stairs is murder, and is consensual sex only in so far as the same could be called suicide.  There's a dark grey area as in how 'consensual' the sex was/is, but there's no one you can really blame for it.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 08:08 .