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[massive_effect]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

No animal has ever demonstrated an intellect or excercise of a free will. No animal has ever communicated with a language of any kind. (Not even dolphins or whales.)

What rock have you been living under? Do you own pets? Have you ever gone to the Zoo? SeaWorld? Have you ever seen an animal before in your life? Have you never seen a nature documentary? Because it doesn't take a whole lot to witness animal intelligence. 

We can attach human traits to anything. When a dolphin writes Hamlet, or a monkey makes a statue of David, I will believe that I am an animal.

[PyroFreak301]

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Out of interest, do you believe in the Genesis creation story or Evolution (God driven or otherwise)?

I believe that the Bible is the word of God. So, I do believe in the creation story.

Genesis is not a scientific document. I believe that it's ok ask scientific questions regarding the origin of man. But, I don't believe in Evolution. The main reason is that Evolution says that men are animals.

Go search YouTube for some video's of some Chimpanzees, then come back and tell me that you see no similarities.

There was a video I cant find now of a primate (can't remember the species) teaching it's child how to use sticks as a tool to farm for ants. That's impressive enough in itself... but the mother actually takes a stick from the child which is unsuitable for getting ants and actually hands him one better suited for the task. I know it doesn't sound like much, but the cognitive function that basically says "That stick is too think, here, use this one instead" is unbelievable when you think about it.

Animals don't have souls. A soul is made of the Intellect and Will. No animal has ever demonstrated an intellect or excercise of a free will. No animal has ever communicated with a language of any kind. (Not even dolphins or whales.)

There have been a couple of chimpanzees that have learned to use ASL (sign language) fairly effectively to communicate with humans.

[redhead1979]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I'm just gonna leave this here for a moment.

I don't know if you're still serious or if you gave up and decided to troll.

He's serious. He thinks you and me are monkey's. He thinks he himself is a monkey.

No, no, no. That's not what the video is saying at all. If anything, that video is a trolling video. Evolution does not state we are monkeys.

This is true.  Evolution states that we share a distant common ancestor with monkeys.  We share a closer ancestor with apes.

[addiction21]

We can not be monkeys. Monkeys do not have waffles. See my infailable logic?

[Collider]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
No, no, no. That's not what the video is saying at all. If anything, that video is a trolling video. Evolution does not state we are monkeys.

Indeed. It is a misconception that in any way does evolution or evolutionists state that humans evolved from monkeys. We did not evolve from monkeys, current theories have us evolving from our hominid ancestors, whom we have ample fossil evidence from.

[Bryy_Miller]

massive_effect wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

No animal has ever demonstrated an intellect or excercise of a free will. No animal has ever communicated with a language of any kind. (Not even dolphins or whales.)

What rock have you been living under? Do you own pets? Have you ever gone to the Zoo? SeaWorld? Have you ever seen an animal before in your life? Have you never seen a nature documentary? Because it doesn't take a whole lot to witness animal intelligence. 

We can attach human traits to anything. When a dolphin writes Hamlet, or a monkey makes a statue of David, I will believe that I am an animal.

]

For the love of God, stop using strawmen. Actually, stop using strawmen IN ORDER TO get away from responses that confuse you.

[newcomplex]

massive_effect wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I'm just gonna leave this here for a moment.

I don't know if you're still serious or if you gave up and decided to troll.

He's serious. He thinks you and me are monkey's. He thinks he himself is a monkey.

The video reveals the truth, however. Despite being a pro-evolution video, it says that man is unhappy. Man is the only unhappy creature. I can tell you why...

Because God left Man after we sinned. Animals can't sin. Only man. We are unhappy now because we get sick and die. Man is aware and animals are not.

I'm not theist, but I like this post.   Simply because it shows that you can be as perfectly ****ing aware of whats going on and still cling to notions of god.    And also, let me tell you guys about a funny phenomenon.


Their are many monkeys around the world, most notably chimpanzees, that have been taught to articulate themselves with sign language.     After doing so, they all have showed enourmous growth in their "intellect".    And them, almost every single one of them ends up suffering from an entirely unique condition among monkeys that is almost identical to the Human condition of "depression".    

They stop eating.   They stop playing.   They suffer from mania.   They suffer from insomnia.   They suffer from hypersomnia.  

Apparently, monkeys haven't figured out that in order to live after one realizes the universe is entirely devoid of meaning, one must intentionally construct a irrational reality that exists inside ones own mind, a religion.      Then pretend its the truth.     That applies to Atheists as well.


Also, gogogo Flowers for Algernon.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 03:12 .

[Collider]

PyroFreak301 wrote...
There have been a couple of chimpanzees that have learned to use ASL (sign language) fairly effectively to communicate with humans.

Kokko the sign language using gorilla:

[Ryzaki]

Oi yeah my mom's dog stopped eating after my mom died. Twas sad.

[Chromie]

massive_effect wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Christmas isn't a purely christian celebration, especially now that it's more of a consumer event than anything else.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ for me.

Well first you don't know your biblical history very much...Jesus was never given an actual date for his birthday just this "keeping watch over their flock by night" [Luke, 2:8] suggests the birth may have actually occurred in the spring during lambing--the only time of year shepherds watched their flocks both day and night.

And Christmas has evolved now its about spending money. I was never religious but I love christmas because well who doesnt like free presents?

[PyroFreak301]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I'm just gonna leave this here for a moment.

I don't know if you're still serious or if you gave up and decided to troll.

He's serious. He thinks you and me are monkey's. He thinks he himself is a monkey.

No, no, no. That's not what the video is saying at all. If anything, that video is a trolling video. Evolution does not state we are monkeys.

Well I don't think it's meant to be taken quite so litterally in that regard. I just found it to be a clever species commentary if you will that people here might appreciate seeing considering the topic.

Maybe I should link my video's a bit better next time

[addiction21]

massive_effect wrote...

We can attach human traits to anything. When a dolphin writes Hamlet, or a monkey makes a statue of David, I will believe that I am an animal.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - D.A.

[newcomplex]

Well, were "Primates" technically, not monkeys. Though we invented the term monkey (and primate), so its wholeheartedly irrelevant. For all you know, the distinction was only set in place so we weren't allowed to scientifically accurately call humans monkeys.

[Inquisitor Recon]

newcomplex wrote...
Apparently, monkeys haven't figured out that in order to live after one realizes the universe is entirely devoid of meaning, one must intentionally construct a irrational reality that exists inside ones own mind, a religion.      Then pretend its the truth.     That applies to Atheists as well.

And you've been across the universe to determine it is meaningless? What was the 7th dimension like BTW?

[newcomplex]

ReconTeam wrote...

newcomplex wrote...
Apparently, monkeys haven't figured out that in order to live after one realizes the universe is entirely devoid of meaning, one must intentionally construct a irrational reality that exists inside ones own mind, a religion.      Then pretend its the truth.     That applies to Atheists as well.

And you've been across the universe to determine it is meaningless? What was the 7th dimension like BTW?

The 7th dimension was a cacophany of energy and subatomic particles.   Much like this one.    

In all seriousness, no, we don't know ****.   Obviously, my understanding of the seventh dimension is rather...shallow...   The nature of the universe is beyond our ken.    Take tachyons, particles that stop existing once they stop existing, and start existing once they stop existing, going back in time in the process.

-however-

"Meaning" is a concept that exists entirely inside the human mind.     Note how their is no mathematical symbol for meaning, though their is literally one for almost anything we have concieved of, apparently including particles that our, in the words of Tycho Brahe of PAC fame, "Deborn into the universe".    

To imply that out universe has meaning is to imply that humans have a significant relation to the fabric of the universe.   Which is like believing that the universe revolves around the earth.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 03:25 .

[Collider]

Btw newcomplex, I responded to your post.

[addiction21]

addiction21 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
-DA

Yeah, but...you will eventually die. What then?

I do not know. I do not presume to know and I do not care either way. I try to live a good life and treat others as I myself would like to be treated. If that earns me eternal damnation so be it.

P.S. I can not believe I fogot to add this line.
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.  -Douglas Adams

[Ryzaki]

massive_effect wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I'm just gonna leave this here for a moment.

I don't know if you're still serious or if you gave up and decided to troll.

He's serious. He thinks you and me are monkey's. He thinks he himself is a monkey.

The video reveals the truth, however. Despite being a pro-evolution video, it says that man is unhappy. Man is the only unhappy creature. I can tell you why...

Because God left Man after we sinned. Animals can't sin. Only man. We are unhappy now because we get sick and die. Man is aware and animals are not.

Right that's totally why dogs will protect and mourn over their masters right? Totally.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ringo12 wrote...
Well first you don't know your biblical history very much...Jesus was never given an actual date for his birthday just this "keeping watch over their flock by night" [Luke, 2:8] suggests the birth may have actually occurred in the spring during lambing--the only time of year shepherds watched their flocks both day and night.

And Christmas has evolved now its about spending money. I was never religious but I love christmas because well who doesnt like free presents?

Why do you claim he doesn't know his Biblical history becaues he celebrates Christmas on the 25th of December? The actual date is unknown (though likely not in December) and the 25th of December has been used for long enough now. Why change it? Christmas is not just about spending money unless you make it so. Without the connection to Christianity it is just "the holidays" or "X-mas" or "be a dick and whine to the ACLU day".

[Bryy_Miller]

Collider wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...
There have been a couple of chimpanzees that have learned to use ASL (sign language) fairly effectively to communicate with humans.

Kokko the sign language using gorilla:

To add to this, intelligence is not subjective. ME can convince himself that it is, but intelligence is not subjective.

[EternalWolfe]

Ringo12 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Christmas isn't a purely christian celebration, especially now that it's more of a consumer event than anything else.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ for me.

Well first you don't know your biblical history very much...Jesus was never given an actual date for his birthday just this "keeping watch over their flock by night" [Luke, 2:8] suggests the birth may have actually occurred in the spring during lambing--the only time of year shepherds watched their flocks both day and night.

And Christmas has evolved now its about spending money. I was never religious but I love christmas because well who doesnt like free presents?

Saw an intresting show on History Channel once.  They tried to pin the date of Christ's birth, by using the directions given in the bible and by calculating the stars positions in past times.  I think it ending up April 17th, 6 B.C.

[Collider]

God punishing man after

a) Knowing in advance that the way he would create humankind would make them betray him.

Creating them anyway despite knowing in advance that they would betray him

c) Punishing them after knowing that they would betray him



Makes perfect sense! I get angry when everything works to plan all the time.

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

God punishing man after
a) Knowing in advance that the way he would create humankind would make them betray him.
Creating them anyway despite knowing in advance that they would betray him
c) Punishing them after knowing that they would betray him

Makes perfect sense! I get angry when everything works to plan all the time.

So either God doesn't know everything in which case the people who said he was are liars, or he's a massive dick.

....Yay!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 mars 2010 - 03:24 .

[newcomplex]

Pleasure feels good. 

Good is your consciousness's construction of chemicals and electrical pulses.   Why is that important?     Why is it meaningful?

You could say that reproduction is an extension of your own life. You have a child and look into their face, they are your own blood, your own genes. Reproduction allows for not only the survival of your own genes, which can be said to "want" to survive, as well as the survival of your species, which often elicit the most empathy from you. Personally, it does not seem to matter why reproduction is important independent of biology - simply put, it is programmed within most of us to be important, which is partly the reason why organisms reproduce, because it is wired within us.

Why is extending ones life important?   If you are doing solely because it is programmed into you, why are you adhereing to it?   You clearly have the "choice".   You can knife yourself at any time.      

Having value does not mean something is important. I can see value in an extra minute to sleep before work, but that doesn't mean I consider that single minute to be important. Why is pleasure valued? Because our body likes it. Pleasure is often tied to our biological necessities. Pleasure can be gained from food, which is something we need to survive. Pleasure can be gained through sex, which is what we and our species need to reproduce and survive. Pleasure can be gained through physical and intellectual stimuli, which can alter our physical and intellectual abilities. Animals playfighting with eachother is not just having fun - it is also training and experimenting without the risk of a genuinely dangerous situation. A tiger cub can wrestle with it's brother, and when it comes time to fight over a mate, it has all that experience and confidence to go by.

When were talking about value, I'm talking about meaning.   Your trying to relate how your experiences are meaningful to the universe as a whole.    Perhaps even the slightest parts of the cosmological math is important, perhaps every action we take is important.    But what makes one action more important then the other?   Why is liveing more important the ceasing?

[Emperor Mars]

While the death of organized religion is possible I do not think that the belief in a God will ever die out. I personally subject to the arguement that no religon is completely wrong, and that none are completely right, all basically have some form of legitmacy.

Meaning that even if christianity is done away with for one reason or another, besides being a consumer holiday it could still signify the birth of one of the most influential people in human history.


(useless background on poster---religious---wont bother posting which particular religion)