449 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

Collider wrote...
Atheism does not require a belief. It requires a lack of one - a lack of belief in God.
And if you mean believing that there is no God - that is ONE belief with NO rituals and no worldviews. That is not a SYSTEM of beliefS. Atheism is not a religion.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God. I understand some try to "rework" the definiton as you have but that is besides the point. It is a belief that there is no God, nothing after death, and etc. If you consider a religion to be a belief around those factors, than atheism qualifies.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 01 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[Inarai]

newcomplex wrote...

Inarai wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Inarai wrote...

The assertions varies from religion to religion. Existence of a divine power is often a central one.

AHHA

*insert image meme*

And I pointed out previously, Atheists must construct a value system (love, happiness, evolution, sex, drugs w/e).   In order to asser tthat it is true, it requires the construction of a divine power.   By divine, I mean that it is universal yet has no foundations in math, and is wholly unprovable.        

Utterly incorrect.

1: Value systems are outside atheism's scope, not a part of the answer to that one and only question, see above.
2: Since when do I need some universal law or divine power to come up with my own ideas?  If you'd like to know how I, personally, come by my values, I'd be happy to discuss that.  I first require that you explicitly acknowledge that is not part of atheism, so that I know you have at least some understanding from all this.

Value systems are tied to Atheisms scope.   Religion accepted god, and thus, has a predefined purpose, and meaning to go along with that.     To reject that, you reject those aspects as well.    Human beings need a reason to live (even if it something like happiness, thats a valid reason).    Thus, Atheism requires the construction of a independent value system.   This can be whatever.   

Now, explain to me the universal purpose for your existence that can be provable.    If you succeed, they should give you the Nobel prize.     Every one of them.    Forever.    No, you can't.    By being unable to, your require the construction of a faith system.    A religion.    

You missed 2 central points.  We can't move forward until you understand them.

1: I don't need any purpose, let alone a universal one.
2: Atheism doesn't answer those questions.  While it does raise them, it is not an answer to them.  Those answers are outside it's scope.  Our position on the whole divinity question isn't as defining as it is for you - that is, people are defined by what they are, not what they are not.

ReconTeam wrote...

Collider wrote...
If your
going to define a religion as a system of beliefs regarding a greater
power and etc.
Atheism does not require a belief. It requires
a lack of one - a lack of belief in God.
And if you mean believing
that there is no God - that is ONE belief with NO rituals and no
worldviews. That is not a SYSTEM of beliefS. Atheism is not a religion.

The
belief that God does not exist is still a belief. Atheism involves the
belief there is nothing after death, there is no God, and so forth. If
you base a religion on these factors than atheism is a religion. I can't
put it much simplier than that.

Nope, outside the scope.  Not to say atheists don't have answers to these qquestion, but we don't turn to nonbelief to provide them.  As to what people do turn to, well...  I can't speak for others.

Modifié par Inarai, 01 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[baller7345]

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

1)  The reason we can imagaine a perfect world is because of emotion.  Hope is the emotion that allows us to wish for that which we can't have.  (please don't ask me to answer why we have emotion...i don't want to write a book)

2)  We don't want to die plain and simple.  We fear a finite ending because that means our lives are pointless and that everything we believed in is false.  Basically this goes back to humans having emotions.  Oh and just about every creature fears death.

3)  Woman may be beautiful to you and to any other straight male but not every woman is equally beautiful.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I mean cmon at one time the most beautiful figure for men was a plump woman which is now seen as undesirable.  Also gay men are not sexually attracted to woman so are they simply a defect because I'd say there are a lot of people out there that would disagree with you on that if they are.

[haberman13]

ImperialOperative wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

I only had one college year in biology before switching to computer science... does that mean I am less capable of understanding biology?

Googled articles are helpful, books are far better, are you suggesting that this information isn't relevant because I don't have a degree in it?

For an internet debate, it's sufficient (however ignorant it may be).

To get to an adequate level of ligitimacy would require citations and a great amount of work which would ultimately be a total and utter waste of time.

Otherwise, you're just talking a whole lot of garbage.

I absolutely agree, and I'm not in this to "win", rather the discussion is interesting and I feel I have enough knowledge to state a case; a case that will never be proven, but it doesn't hurt to throw your thoughts out there (assuming they aren't blah blah blah crazy talk crazy talk)

:innocent:

[Emperor Mars]

PyroFreak301 wrote...


I respect anyone that has put enough thought into the issue and come to their own belief through a bit of self-inspection, much like you have.

It's just when I talk to people like Massive_Effect who will blindly quote passages from the Bible in response to any legitimate questioning of his belief, I can't help but keep at it... it feels like I should help him by opening his eyes to the world. Ironically, this is exactly the same reason religions preach their message... they feel they are helping people by introducing them to religion. I guess the 2 groups aren't so opposite after all.

I removed all the above hoobajoob to avoid stupidly long posts.
Both extremes believe that they are inherintly right and like Ive said before, in my opinion they kinda are atleast in some regards. When it comes down to extreme's I am more likely to listen (not nessecary agree with but listen) to a physicist talk about how the universe is then listen to preacher tell me that Im going to to hell because I slept through church one day.



Everyone in this thread needs to go watch Godfellas (futurama) and Homer the Heretic (the simpsons). Not only because they are both funny but **** they make an okay point.

[Dogmatic Atheist]

newcomplex wrote...

Inarai wrote...

The assertions varies from religion to religion. Existence of a divine power is often a central one.

AHHA

*insert image meme*

And I pointed out previously, Atheists must construct a value system (love, happiness, evolution, sex, drugs w/e).   In order to asser tthat it is true, it requires the construction of a divine power.   By divine, I mean that it is universal yet has no foundations in math, and is wholly unprovable.        

By asserting their is no divine power, you require the construction of a divine power.   Its as simple as that.   Unless you want to explain to me (if your an atheist) what are the universal foundations for the reason why you haven't killed yourself.   

That's the most nonsensical statement I have ever read. Atheism does not assert there is no divine power, it is simply the rejection of all currently asserted divine powers. To assert that there is no divine power in existence would require absolute knowledge of all possible divine entities which is simply impossible. You cannot assert the non-existance of something that you cannot or have not conceived yet.

Atheism doesn't have to explain anything, and it cannot because it is the rejection of assertions not the construct of one. The universal foundation of why people don't kill themselves is because we all have a genetically programmed desire to survive and reproduce that was passed down from our ancestors. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

What I want to know is why the religious don't want to die as quickly as possible given the rewards that await them after death. If you're a Christian and believe that you will go to heaven, cancer is the best possible news you could ever get from your doctor.

Modifié par Dogmatic Atheist, 01 mars 2010 - 05:00 .

[Ryzaki]

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.



Hey guys I found a new religion!!!



WHOOT



So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

[ImperialOperative]

haberman13 wrote...

I absolutely agree, and I'm not in this to "win", rather the discussion is interesting and I feel I have enough knowledge to state a case; a case that will never be proven, but it doesn't hurt to throw your thoughts out there (assuming they aren't blah blah blah crazy talk crazy talk)

:innocent:

As long as we're having fun.

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 01 mars 2010 - 04:54 .

[haberman13]

ReconTeam wrote...

Collider wrote...
Atheism does not require a belief. It requires a lack of one - a lack of belief in God.
And if you mean believing that there is no God - that is ONE belief with NO rituals and no worldviews. That is not a SYSTEM of beliefS. Atheism is not a religion.

Atheism is the belief that there is no God. I understand some try to "rework" the definiton as you have but that is besides the point. It is a belief that there is no God, nothing after death, and etc. If you consider a religion to be a belief around those factors, than atheism qualifies.

Atheism also creates a defacto system of morality, though varied among its followers in intensity.

Logic conclusions from atheism usually lead a person to be more selfish, more accepting of violence and less concerned with the needs of others.

(I'm not saying there aren't good atheists, just that the lack of moral philosophy combined with the idea of "survival of the fittest" has these natural conclusions associated with them)

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

[ImperialOperative]

Y'all want to know what religion is?



Your Ultimate



That's religion.

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

Your arguement is that not believing in something means your religious. It does not matter if the thing you're not believing in is religion. It simply is a lack of belief. That by itself does not constitue a religion.

What the heck is hard to understand about that? 

Also the nature of man has very little to do with some man in the sky.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 mars 2010 - 04:59 .

[ImperialOperative]

ReconTeam wrote...

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

Hatred and Anger gets you a nice cozy spot in hell, FYI.

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 01 mars 2010 - 04:57 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Emperor Mars wrote...

I am a catholic.
I believe in evolution, I believe the resurrection, I do not think that the Eucharist physically becomes the body and blood of Christ, but I think it does obtain some form of spiritual significance. I think that the big bang is a likely form of universal creation, I also believe in God.

Just one question Mars, how can you claim to be a catholic when you only believe parts of the Bible? Why believe any of it? If one part of the Bible is false shouldnt it cast doubt on the rest of it? How can you say that the bible is the word of god when you beleive half of it is false?

[haberman13]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

Love your enemy man <3   (and ultimately they aren't your enemy, they are in the same boat we are, trying to figure things out)

That being said this non-argument argument is dopey, and detracts from the real questions by vaguelly trying to frame our argument as the same thing as suggesting that "unicorns" exist.  There is no logical reason for a unicorn to exist, unless you are stating that unicorns actually created the universe.

[ImperialOperative]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...

I am a catholic.
I believe in evolution, I believe the resurrection, I do not think that the Eucharist physically becomes the body and blood of Christ, but I think it does obtain some form of spiritual significance. I think that the big bang is a likely form of universal creation, I also believe in God.

Just one question Mars, how can you claim to be a catholic when you only believe parts of the Bible? Why believe any of it? If one part of the Bible is false shouldnt it cast doubt on the rest of it? How can you say that the bible is the word of god when you beleive half of it is false?

He's a heretic, so he can believe whatever the hell he wants.

[Inarai]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

The problem is, you can't or won't see the point - that idea is as much an answer to those questions as the rejection of the notion of a god is, that is, it isn't.  Those answers come from elsewhere.  Yet it's all bundled up in that one notion to you.  You need to look outside your own worldview for a few seconds, see things the way someone else does.  You might find it very enlightening.

haberman13 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Collider
wrote...
Atheism does not require a belief. It requires a lack of
one - a lack of belief in God.
And if you mean believing that there
is no God - that is ONE belief with NO rituals and no worldviews. That
is not a SYSTEM of beliefS. Atheism is not a religion.

Atheism
is the belief that there is no God. I understand some try to "rework"
the definiton as you have but that is besides the point. It is a belief
that there is no God, nothing after death, and etc. If you consider a
religion to be a belief around those factors, than atheism qualifies.

Atheism
also creates a defacto system of morality, though varied among its
followers in intensity.

Logic conclusions from atheism usually
lead a person to be more selfish, more accepting of violence and less
concerned with the needs of others.

(I'm not saying there aren't
good atheists, just that the lack of moral philosophy combined with the
idea of "survival of the fittest" has these natural conclusions
associated with them)

...
...
...

Got anything to back up that ridiculously offensive notion?  Did you know that atheists actually make up, proportionately, the smallest group of just about any religion on in terms of who commits crimes (possibly the absolute smallest, I'd have to check on a couple to be sure of that.)

Modifié par Inarai, 01 mars 2010 - 05:01 .

[PyroFreak301]

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...
What I want to know why the religious don't want to die as quickly as possible given the rewards that await them after death. If you're a Christian and believe that you will go to heaven, cancer is the best possible news you could ever get from your doctor.

[ImperialOperative]

Inarai wrote...

The problem is, you can't or won't see the point - that idea is as much an answer to those questions as the rejection of the notion of a god is, that is, it isn't.  Those answers come from elsewhere.  Yet it's all bundled up in that one notion to you.  You need to look outside your own worldview for a few seconds, see things the way someone else does.  You might find it very enlightening.

He can't do that, it might shatter his fragile beliefs and reveal his insecurity.

[Inquisitor Recon]

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...
Actually Christmas is "not" a christian holiday at all. Infact it was absolved much like other holidays by christians to keep peace among the people. Christmas is just a rename.

How does the fact that some pagan traditions (tree) and date carried over nullify the connection to Christianity? Considering Roman "paganism" and the the paganism of the Germanic and other tribes no longer exist, I would say it is primarily a Christian holidy despite historical carry-overs.

[tripehound1]

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

is that aunicornism? or the more accurate aunicornequinusism cause I've seen a narwahl they definitely exist... lol

[newcomplex]

1: I don't need any purpose, let alone a universal one.

You can think you don't, but ultimately, as a sentient individual, you do.    Why do you get up in the morning.    You obviously need some reason.     Even if its automatic, at some point, you need to ask yourself why am I doing this.    Unless your not sentient and some chinese room android that pretends to be human lol.

Now, forgive me for being pretentious, but I don't need a even wait for reply, because the response is so universal.   No matter what this reason is, you will be unable to justify it under ironically brilliant scrutiny of a child who continually persists on asking "why".     Why?   Why"   Eventually, your end reason will be a religion.    

Atheism doesn't answer those questions.  While it does raise them, it is not an answer to them.  Those answers are outside it's scope.  Our position on the whole divinity question isn't as defining as it is for you - that is, people are defined by what they are, not what they are not.

My pretentiousness in not waiting for a reply answers this question.   No matter what position we end up taking, it will ultimately be reducible to a religion, because the purpose of our existence has no universal constant.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 05:05 .

[haberman13]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Just one question Mars, how can you claim to be a catholic when you only believe parts of the Bible? Why believe any of it? If one part of the Bible is false shouldnt it cast doubt on the rest of it? How can you say that the bible is the word of god when you beleive half of it is false?

He didn't suggest that Genesis was a scientific account, unless you are suggesting it is, this is irrelevant.

Genesis is metaphorical, most people understand this, for some reason a small minority of southern christians don't.

[Ryzaki]

tripehound1 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

is that aunicornism? or the more accurate aunicornequinusism cause I've seen a narwahl they definitely exist... lol

Did you catch it? 

[ImperialOperative]

newcomplex wrote...


Now, forgive me for being pretentious, but I don't need a even wait for reply, because the response is so universal.   No matter what this reason is, you will be unable to justify it under ironically brilliant scrutiny of a child who continually persists on asking "why".     Why?   Why"   Eventually, your end reason will be a religion.    

ImperialOperative wrote...

Y'all want to know what religion is?

Your Ultimate

That's religion.