449 réponses à ce sujet

[newcomplex]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...
What I want to know why the religious don't want to die as quickly as possible given the rewards that await them after death. If you're a Christian and believe that you will go to heaven, cancer is the best possible news you could ever get from your doctor.

Sucks that apparently, God is reading every thought your making.    So that wouldn't work.

Yeah...so he knows...about your "habit" 

xD

Also, this article some guy posted earlier, I just read it
http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=P1

It provides a awesome reason why I, or anyone else, is, or would want to, or should be an atheist.

Atheism "allows someone to move forward and speculate on life without
any concern for the dogmatic structure of a religion," Bailey said.

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 05:03 .

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

Well christianity wouldnt be obscure in a ME universe. All though the modern "cultists" as I like to call them wouldnt fit in too well. Difference between religion and a cult is who is pulling the strings and how. Even Jack states it. She joined a cult kept the hair cut. Alot of modern religions are nearly to the same degree. Whos to say in ME that they havent reached another time frame of power much like ancient rome.

[ImperialOperative]

haberman13 wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Just one question Mars, how can you claim to be a catholic when you only believe parts of the Bible? Why believe any of it? If one part of the Bible is false shouldnt it cast doubt on the rest of it? How can you say that the bible is the word of god when you beleive half of it is false?

He didn't suggest that Genesis was a scientific account, unless you are suggesting it is, this is irrelevant.

Genesis is metaphorical, most people understand this, for some reason a small minority of southern christians don't.

Inbreeding and homeschooling tends to foster that sort of... cognitive deficiency.

[ImperialOperative]

newcomplex wrote...

Sucks that apparently, God is reading every thought your making.    So that wouldn't work.

Yeah...so he knows...about your "habit" 

xD

WTF santa claus?

[Ryzaki]

Oh no. Don't tell me we've sunk to the low of: "People can't be nice unless they're god fearing!" or the good old: "Only Christians are moral!" Ugh. I thought this debate couldn't sink any lower.

[ImperialOperative]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh no. Don't tell me we've sunk to the low of: "People can't be nice unless they're god fearing!" or the good old: "Only Christians are moral!" Ugh. I thought this debate couldn't sink any lower.

Why do you think Buddhist monks are parasitic homeless bums?  Because they don't believe in Jesus, hurr durrp.

[PyroFreak301]

newcomplex wrote...



You missed 2 central points.  We can't move forward until you understand them.

1: I don't need any purpose, let alone a universal one.

You can think you don't, but ultimately, as a sentient individual, you do.    Why do you get up in the morning.    You obviously need some reason.     Even if its automatic, at some point, you need to ask yourself why am I doing this.    Unless your not sentient and some chinese room android that pretends to be human lol.

Now, forgive me for being pretentious, but I don't need a even wait for reply, because the response is so universal.   No matter what this reason is, you will be unable to justify it under ironically brilliant scrutiny of a child who continually persists on asking "why".     Why?   Why"   Eventually, your end reason will be a religion.    

Atheism doesn't answer those questions.  While it does raise them, it is not an answer to them.  Those answers are outside it's scope.  Our position on the whole divinity question isn't as defining as it is for you - that is, people are defined by what they are, not what they are not.

My pretentiousness in not waiting for a reply answers this question.   No matter what position we end up taking, it will ultimately be reducible to a religion, because the purpose of our existence has no universal constant.    

I don't buy into this. I take great comfort in the fact we have no purpse... No matter how much or how little I achieve in my lifetime, it won't matter in the slightest. If I had to give a reason why I wouldn't just kill myself now, it's probably that deep survival instinct that can be quite persuasive at times.

[baller7345]

ReconTeam wrote...

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...
Actually Christmas is "not" a christian holiday at all. Infact it was absolved much like other holidays by christians to keep peace among the people. Christmas is just a rename.

How does the fact that some pagan traditions (tree) and date carried over nullify the connection to Christianity? Considering Roman "paganism" and the the paganism of the Germanic and other tribes no longer exist, I would say it is primarily a Christian holidy despite historical carry-overs.

Christmas is really a combination of tradtions from multiple religions and beliefs.  Its christian when you look at it just for the reason its celebrated but as you said the pagan traditions that are in it mean it has pagan influence.  Please don't kill me for this but for a christian holiday celebrating the birth of Christ then it really shouldn't be celebrated on December 25 because all the evidence points to Jesus being born during the spring or summer such as shepards being out in the fields which is something that was practiced in the winter months.  So while in meaning it may be a christian holiday many other aspects including its date our in fact pagan, some other religion, or simply celebrating the winter solsitice.

You are right in saying that it doesn't nullify the connetion to Christianity but it is by no means primarily Christian at least not any more with all the other culutral influences on it.

Modifié par baller7345, 01 mars 2010 - 05:07 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Inarai wrote...

The problem is, you can't or won't see the point - that idea is as much an answer to those questions as the rejection of the notion of a god is, that is, it isn't.  Those answers come from elsewhere.  Yet it's all bundled up in that one notion to you.  You need to look outside your own worldview for a few seconds, see things the way someone else does.  You might find it very enlightening.

He can't do that, it might shatter his fragile beliefs and reveal his insecurity.

Ahh... gotta love smell of hypocrisy in the morning. Criticize me for making assumptions and then claim to know my beliefs and mental stability? Trying to bait a response I suppose? Give it up kid. It wasn't the Chrisitans, Muslims, or Jews who derailed this topic, it was the desire of shallow individuals like yourself.

[PyroFreak301]

newcomplex wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...
What I want to know why the religious don't want to die as quickly as possible given the rewards that await them after death. If you're a Christian and believe that you will go to heaven, cancer is the best possible news you could ever get from your doctor.

Sucks that apparently, God is reading every thought your making.    So that wouldn't work.

Yeah...so he knows...about your "habit" 

xD

Also, this article some guy posted earlier, I just read it
http://www.cnn.com/2...dex.html?hpt=P1

It provides a awesome reason why I, or anyone else, is, or would want to, or should be an atheist.

Atheism "allows someone to move forward and speculate on life without
any concern for the dogmatic structure of a religion," Bailey said.

That article was me as well

I just keep delivering gems to this thread.

[tripehound1]

Ryzaki wrote...

tripehound1 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

is that aunicornism? or the more accurate aunicornequinusism cause I've seen a narwahl they definitely exist... lol

Did you catch it? 

No, but I could of it was in a tank lol would of been easy... although the fact I didn't catch it does mean I can't prove it's existence   D'oh 1 to you, you sneaky ninja aunicornists!

[Ryzaki]

....*sighs* and those are the majority in my country. Good grief I hate America at times.

[newcomplex]

Hey you know what pisses me off? Atheists who celebrate "winter solstice"!.



It pisses me off for the same reasons Indie bands named "dinosaur rainbow popcorn" ****** me off.



And the reason is incredibly hypocritical lol.

[ImperialOperative]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ahh... gotta love smell of hypocrisy in the morning. Criticize me for making assumptions and then claim to know my beliefs and mental stability? Trying to bait a response I suppose? Give it up kid. It wasn't the Chrisitans, Muslims, or Jews who derailed this topic, it was the desire of shallow individuals like yourself.

Trying to get a response that you ever bother to look at other world views, without letting your own world view blind you.

[Inarai]

newcomplex wrote...



You missed 2 central points.  We can't move forward until you understand them.

1: I don't need any purpose, let alone a universal one.

You can think you don't, but ultimately, as a sentient individual, you do.    Why do you get up in the morning.    You obviously need some reason.     Even if its automatic, at some point, you need to ask yourself why am I doing this.    Unless your not sentient and some chinese room android that pretends to be human lol.

Now, forgive me for being pretentious, but I don't need a even wait for reply, because the response is so universal.   No matter what this reason is, you will be unable to justify it under ironically brilliant scrutiny of a child who continually persists on asking "why".     Why?   Why"   Eventually, your end reason will be a religion.    

Atheism doesn't answer those questions.  While it does raise them, it is not an answer to them.  Those answers are outside it's scope.  Our position on the whole divinity question isn't as defining as it is for you - that is, people are defined by what they are, not what they are not.

My pretentiousness in not waiting for a reply answers this question.   No matter what position we end up taking, it will ultimately be reducible to a religion, because the purpose of our existence has no universal constant.    

1: If you attempt to infinitely reduce any concept, you will reach a point where there is not immediate answer, yes.  That does not mean falling back on religion, just gives me a new question to ponder.  And again, I don't.  If you'd stop trying to force your concept of how people think onto my situation, perhaps I might be able to explain why.  But you're going to need to open your mind a bit more first.
2: Again, wrong.  If you'd stop assuming that the way you think, that your need of universal purpose is universal to all human beings, I'd be able to explain.  I need that understanding first, however, because I know from experience that without that, you won't get it.  People who make the kind of assumptions you are don't, unless they are first forced to abandon them.  Now come on, it might be an interesting experience, who knows?

[Ryzaki]

Can't we all live and let live in this thread?

[haberman13]

Inarai wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So the belief that unicorns don't exist. What religion is that then? Since its "obviously" a religion because you believe something.

Hey guys I found a new religion!!!

WHOOT

So whose joining the "Unicorns don't exist!" religion! We have cookies! Chocolate chip! (and peanut butter mmmh.)

Likewise I believe in cake, is that a religion?

Do unicorns have anything to do with God, the nature of man, and the afterlife? No? Thought not. Stop the same tired arguments. You aren't doing anything to make me hate atheists any less.

The problem is, you can't or won't see the point - that idea is as much an answer to those questions as the rejection of the notion of a god is, that is, it isn't.  Those answers come from elsewhere.  Yet it's all bundled up in that one notion to you.  You need to look outside your own worldview for a few seconds, see things the way someone else does.  You might find it very enlightening.

haberman13 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Collider
wrote...
Atheism does not require a belief. It requires a lack of
one - a lack of belief in God.
And if you mean believing that there
is no God - that is ONE belief with NO rituals and no worldviews. That
is not a SYSTEM of beliefS. Atheism is not a religion.

Atheism
is the belief that there is no God. I understand some try to "rework"
the definiton as you have but that is besides the point. It is a belief
that there is no God, nothing after death, and etc. If you consider a
religion to be a belief around those factors, than atheism qualifies.

Atheism
also creates a defacto system of morality, though varied among its
followers in intensity.

Logic conclusions from atheism usually
lead a person to be more selfish, more accepting of violence and less
concerned with the needs of others.

(I'm not saying there aren't
good atheists, just that the lack of moral philosophy combined with the
idea of "survival of the fittest" has these natural conclusions
associated with them)

...
...
...

Got anything to back up that ridiculously offensive notion?  Did you know that atheists actually make up, proportionately, the smallest group of just about any religion on in terms of who commits crimes (possibly the absolute smallest, I'd have to check on a couple to be sure of that.)

I'm sorry, don't mean to be offensive or impune you, but do you disagree or are you just offended by my boldness?

I think the logic is sound, that any person who doesn't subscribe to an idea of ultimate justice combined with ideas like "survival of the fittest" and that man is just an animal would trend towards what I mentioned.

edit: and unfortunately all the atheists I know reinforce this notion

Modifié par haberman13, 01 mars 2010 - 05:12 .

[Inarai]

ReconTeam wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Inarai wrote...

The problem is, you can't or won't see the point - that idea is as much an answer to those questions as the rejection of the notion of a god is, that is, it isn't.  Those answers come from elsewhere.  Yet it's all bundled up in that one notion to you.  You need to look outside your own worldview for a few seconds, see things the way someone else does.  You might find it very enlightening.

He can't do that, it might shatter his fragile beliefs and reveal his insecurity.

Ahh... gotta love smell of hypocrisy in the morning. Criticize me for making assumptions and then claim to know my beliefs and mental stability? Trying to bait a response I suppose? Give it up kid. It wasn't the Chrisitans, Muslims, or Jews who derailed this topic, it was the desire of shallow individuals like yourself.

Actually, no.  This topic's derailment began on the first page when to OP assumed that Christmas automatically meant Christian, only because it's the meaning it holds for him.

[Inquisitor Recon]

baller7345 wrote...
Christmas is really a combination of tradtions from multiple religions and beliefs.  Its christian when you look at it just for the reason its celebrated but as you said the pagan traditions that are in it mean it has pagan influence.  Please don't kill me for this but for a christian holiday celebrating the birth of Christ then it really shouldn't be celebrated on December 25 because all the evidence points to Jesus being born during the spring or summer such as shepards being out in the fields which is something that was practiced in the winter months.  So while in meaning it may be a christian holiday many other aspects including its date our in fact pagan, some other religion, or simply celebrating the winter solsitice.

You are right in saying that it doesn't nullify the connetion to Christianity but it is by no means primarily Christian at least not any more with all the other culutral influences on it.

Your correct in that a more accurate date would sometime in the late spring IIRC, but Decemember 25th pretty much became fixed due to the Romans. I don't believe the date used means it isn't a Christian holiday.  Obviously some pagan aspects remain in the holiday today but I would say it is far more Christian today than it was to somebody in a Roman province in Germania.

[tripehound1]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh no. Don't tell me we've sunk to the low of: "People can't be nice unless they're god fearing!" or the good old: "Only Christians are moral!" Ugh. I thought this debate couldn't sink any lower.

Yup I don't believe in any form of punishment after death for doing such things, yet I manage to get through life not killing, raping, stabbing, beating  or robbing anyone. PURELY because I wouldn't like those things to happen to me...

Am I magic?

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

ReconTeam wrote...

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...
Actually Christmas is "not" a christian holiday at all. Infact it was absolved much like other holidays by christians to keep peace among the people. Christmas is just a rename.

How does the fact that some pagan traditions (tree) and date carried over nullify the connection to Christianity? Considering Roman "paganism" and the the paganism of the Germanic and other tribes no longer exist, I would say it is primarily a Christian holidy despite historical carry-overs.

So if christianity dies, and all of a sudden another religion springs forth and takes easter as the birth of their god I should completely ignore where it trully came from?

[EternalWolfe]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh no. Don't tell me we've sunk to the low of: "People can't be nice unless they're god fearing!" or the good old: "Only Christians are moral!" Ugh. I thought this debate couldn't sink any lower.

It can always sink lower.  ALWAYS.  It was headed here from the moment the OP said he didn't want this to turn into a religious war.  It always ends up here, for some reason.  And, it might even go further downhill.  Probably will, given time.

[javierabegazo]

Alright, that's enough religious debating in a game forum for today

[Ryzaki]

tripehound1 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh no. Don't tell me we've sunk to the low of: "People can't be nice unless they're god fearing!" or the good old: "Only Christians are moral!" Ugh. I thought this debate couldn't sink any lower.

Yup I don't believe in any form of punishment after death for doing such things, yet I manage to get through life not killing, raping, stabbing, beating  or robbing anyone. PURELY because I wouldn't like those things to happen to me...

Am I magic?

That would make two of us I suppose.

[Emperor Mars]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Emperor Mars wrote...

I am a catholic.
I believe in evolution, I believe the resurrection, I do not think that the Eucharist physically becomes the body and blood of Christ, but I think it does obtain some form of spiritual significance. I think that the big bang is a likely form of universal creation, I also believe in God.

Just one question Mars, how can you claim to be a catholic when you only believe parts of the Bible? Why believe any of it? If one part of the Bible is false shouldnt it cast doubt on the rest of it? How can you say that the bible is the word of god when you beleive half of it is false?

He's a heretic, so he can believe whatever the hell he wants.

Hitting both at once cause yall didnt read my later posts

Catholic because I respect God and wish to show that respect, and I was already comfortable as a Catholic (again all religions are good). And who the hell said that I said the bible was the word of god?! the thing was written 300 years after the fact, and then chopped up by those who bairly understood it!! No, I believe in Catholic dogma and practices, and then only pieces of it, and I can pick choose because I have a functioning human brain and am capable of making my own choices.

Again with the heretic thing, I wont argue it, if you think I am a heretic then I get to add to my list "**** people think Mars is". I am a human capable of free will and of making my own decisions, as are you, I respect everyones ideals, I might disagree, but I respect them.

If you make the arguement "well why dont you find a new way to respect/worship" my arguement will be whats the difference? I have already said that each religion has some kernel of legitmacy.