449 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

The evidence that global warming is happening is unquestionable; and so is the evidence that it is anthropomorphic. The science behind it has nothing to do with faith. Science never does. If it does, it's not science.



And I study evolutionary biology - the evidence is overwhelming and if you question evolution, go read about it and learn about it instead of claiming it's "faith-based science." For God's sake...

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

cruc1al wrote...

The evidence that global warming is happening is unquestionable; and so is the evidence that it is anthropomorphic. The science behind it has nothing to do with faith. Science never does. If it does, it's not science.

And I study evolutionary biology - the evidence is overwhelming and if you question evolution, go read about it and learn about it instead of claiming it's "faith-based science." For God's sake...

I'd have to question whether GW is unquestionable, when so many are questioning it.

I'd like irrefutable hard data, not derived from erroneous computer models. In short I want what I would get from any other scientifc theory. I don't think it's too much to ask really.

[The Demonologist]

Christmas has pretty much become the consumer event, and I'll bet this is true to a greater extent in the future.



Don't see why the faith would die out in Mass Effect. They'd just need to change a few things. They're pretty good at that.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

cruc1al wrote...

The evidence that global warming is happening is unquestionable; and so is the evidence that it is anthropomorphic. The science behind it has nothing to do with faith. Science never does. If it does, it's not science.

And I study evolutionary biology - the evidence is overwhelming and if you question evolution, go read about it and learn about it instead of claiming it's "faith-based science." For God's sake...

I'd have to question whether GW is unquestionable, when so many are questioning it.

I'd like irrefutable hard data, not derived from erroneous computer models. In short I want what I would get from any other scientifc theory. I don't think it's too much to ask really.

edit: double post

Modifié par Big_Stupid_Jelly, 26 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[The Demonologist]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

The evidence that global warming is happening is unquestionable; and so is the evidence that it is anthropomorphic. The science behind it has nothing to do with faith. Science never does. If it does, it's not science.

And I study evolutionary biology - the evidence is overwhelming and if you question evolution, go read about it and learn about it instead of claiming it's "faith-based science." For God's sake...

I'd have to question whether GW is unquestionable, when so many are questioning it.

I'd like irrefutable hard data, not derived from erroneous computer models. In short I want what I would get from any other scientifc theory. I don't think it's too much to ask really.

You know the scientific method?

Apply that to intelligent design as well.

If you're truly thinking that way, you should believe in neither theory.

[ImperialOperative]

Those who dispute evolution and find it to be "faith-based" obviously know absolutely nothing about science.

[keginkc]

Aisynia wrote...

With science, you seek the truth.

With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

Someone truly faithful isn't going to automatically abandon a lifetime of faith because we make contact with aliens. Crisis of faith? Very possible, but automatically assuming a majority of people, of ANY religion, are going to abandon their beliefs is arrogant.

I would wager that MOST modern christians, myself included, believe in evolution and the big bang and that the idea of God goes far beyond, as that Cerberus officer said in the IFF mission, "an old man with magical powers".

You read like a somewhat liberal Christian, as opposed to a fundamentalist.  While I wouldn't tend to portrey them as the majority, I think that there are still many, many people out there in the western world who take the bible literally.  I think there would indeed be a crisis of faith for many (and not just westerners, but in the other major religions as well, be it islam or buddhism or hinduism), particularly among fundamentalists, as they're presented with a reality that cannot be, according to what they believe.  Although, perhaps they would just dismiss that reality (meaning the aliens, rather than their religion) as false...

In any case, I would say that in the contect of the game, it's not so much about people changing their views as it's a matter of perpetuating those views from generation to generation.  As in, it wouldn't be about you, or me, or anybody else throwing out what we believe, but more about trying to pass those beliefs along to our children in a drastically changed world.   Speaking as the atheist son of two devout Christians (in fact, both of my sisters are atheists as well, and we were all raised and confirmed in the Catholic faith), I can speak to that potential generational shift, even without Mass Relays and Asari temptresses.

Modifié par keginkc, 26 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

The Demonologist wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

The evidence that global warming is happening is unquestionable; and so is the evidence that it is anthropomorphic. The science behind it has nothing to do with faith. Science never does. If it does, it's not science.

And I study evolutionary biology - the evidence is overwhelming and if you question evolution, go read about it and learn about it instead of claiming it's "faith-based science." For God's sake...

I'd have to question whether GW is unquestionable, when so many are questioning it.

I'd like irrefutable hard data, not derived from erroneous computer models. In short I want what I would get from any other scientifc theory. I don't think it's too much to ask really.

You know the scientific method?

Apply that to intelligent design as well.

If you're truly thinking that way, you should believe in neither theory.

And I don't.

I never said I believed in ID.

[Dedstu]

So, does Scientology fall under religion or science? Lol
I would think by the time the games take place, there would be a 'bastardized' christianity.
IE. Why would a Turian, Volus, or any of the alien races (not to mention Geth) believe their soul was saved 1000's of years ago by a Human man? (Bible says there was only God and Humans, Bible does not mention Turians, or Proteans...)
The base of the Christian religion is Good and Just, so the alien races may 'borrow' ideas from Christianity, like many religions now do.(eg Voodoo is a cross of African tribal beliefs and Christianity - very strange mix in my opinion)

Would Humans in the future accept an alien race's God?

Cool Thread, please keep it civil.

[massive_effect]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

I don't think that Sci-Fi posits the death of spirtuality, rather it posits the death of the "intelligent design" aspects of Christianity being accepted as fact.

As well it should be given all of the physical evidence to the contrary.

Sentient beings seem to have an inherent need to believe in something beyond themselves and even sci-fi that seems to embrace the harder sciences has some aspects of spirituality to them, especially cyberpunk.

Even belief in the absense of God is arguably faith based since it is important to your philosophical well being that there is no cosmic father figure keeping track of your lapses in morality.

You are absolutely correct in saying that atheism is a faith. Whatever anyone believes which can't be scientifically proven is a faith.

So, what faith do you choose? The faith which bears fruit.

[Kid_SixXx]

Aisynia wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Heh. People always try to link Ashley's xenophobia to her faith when there are plenty of reasons to be wary of the Council races that have nothing to do with Christianity.

And plenty of reasons NOT to be xenophobic BECAUSE of it.

Oh, I agree.  I was merely stating from a metagame perspective that some people tend to think of Ashley as some sort of Fox News style conservative wingnut and point to her Christian beliefs as some sort of telltale sign of that mindset as if to imply that all Christians are intolerant and judgmental.

Given her family history and the history between humans and the Council races, there are perfectly good reasons for her not to trust the Council races or their politics that have nothing to do with her being a Christian or a conservative minded person.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

massive_effect wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

I don't think that Sci-Fi posits the death of spirtuality, rather it posits the death of the "intelligent design" aspects of Christianity being accepted as fact.

As well it should be given all of the physical evidence to the contrary.

Sentient beings seem to have an inherent need to believe in something beyond themselves and even sci-fi that seems to embrace the harder sciences has some aspects of spirituality to them, especially cyberpunk.

Even belief in the absense of God is arguably faith based since it is important to your philosophical well being that there is no cosmic father figure keeping track of your lapses in morality.

You are absolutely correct in saying that atheism is a faith. Whatever anyone believes which can't be scientifically proven is a faith.

So, what faith do you choose? The faith which bears fruit.

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.
So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

If so then you're an athiest, with a faith in the non-existence of pink unicorns, unless of course you believe they exist.

[massive_effect]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Those who dispute evolution and find it to be "faith-based" obviously know absolutely nothing about science.

Science is very simple for anyone to understand.

Science is the "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation" (dictionary.com)

Evolution is a theory about the origin of species. This is not proven and it is not science.

[mybudgee]

Whoa!! Easy there guys. One thing nobody can debate: look at history, all great civilizations have almost always imploded (not literally) after about 200 years. GW or not it's safe to say modern mankind is on borrowed time. So smoke 'em if ya got 'em!!

[ImperialOperative]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.
So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

If so then you're an athiest, with a faith in the non-existence of pink unicorns, unless of course you believe they exist.

That would be "nontheism."

Atheism is the utter denial and rejection of the existence of a divine being.

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 26 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[Goth Skunk]

Aisynia wrote...

Someone truly faithful isn't going to automatically abandon a lifetime of faith because we make contact with aliens. Crisis of faith? Very possible, but automatically assuming a majority of people, of ANY religion, are going to abandon their beliefs is arrogant.

I was baptised Lutheran, raised to believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, confirmed into the Lutheran Faith. But when I became a man, I distanced myself from it. Christianity has some very good teachings, and faith can be a powerful tool, but to piously devote oneselves life to eat, sleep, and breathe life by the Bible is foolish.

I don't propose to be representative of any faction of humanity. I'm not that arrogant. I also acknowledge that the Mass Effect universe is fictitious and based on the creative imaginings of a number of people, but the theory isn't farfetched.

People have turned to Religion for questions that at certain points in time couldn't be answered by Science. There have been numerous times where the Roman Catholic church, for example, has declared something to be the infallable truth. Why? Because they are thre representatives of God, that's why. "Don't dare question it, that's heresy." Then along comes science some years later and goes "Actually..."

Just off the top of my head, science has proven, in the face of Catholicism's infallable truths that:

The Earth is not flat
The Sun does not revolve around the Earth
The Earth is not the center of the universe
Eating your food with forks is actually healthier than eating with your hands all the time

Thus forcing Catholicism to make changes to their practices of Faith. Over time, it erodes their credibility. "If they were wrong about the Earth being flat, what else might they be wrong about?"
 
For the longest time, before something like Flight was even conceivable, Religious leaders proclaimed that Heaven was high above the Earth, and that Hell was far below the surface of the Earth. But now that humanity has ventured out into space and we know that they didn't pass Heaven on the way up, that again raises questions about its existence. The clever response is to declare that Heaven doesn't exist in our plane of existence. A great response, because it can't be verified until after death. And after you're dead, you're no longer accountable as a spiritual leader.

The TRUTH is, all Religion, and religious people have to go by is Faith, because they really don't know one way or another. With that in mind, it should come as no surprise that many people would then walk away from Religion. Life's too short and precious to dedicate it to something roughly the equivalent of a hunch.

Modifié par Goth Skunk, 26 février 2010 - 07:50 .

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

massive_effect wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Those who dispute evolution and find it to be "faith-based" obviously know absolutely nothing about science.

Science is very simple for anyone to understand.

Science is the "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation" (dictionary.com)

Evolution is a theory about the origin of species. This is not proven and it is not science.

Just to clarify

Evolution IS proved categorically. I think you're confusing abiogenesis, with evolution; the former deals with the initial cause of life on Earth, the latter details how said life 'evolves' hence the name.

[ImperialOperative]

massive_effect wrote...

Science is very simple for anyone to understand.

Science is the "systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation" (dictionary.com)

Evolution is a theory about the origin of species. This is not proven and it is not science.

Your ignorance, it is mind blowing.

I mean, you don't even know what meaning "theory" has within the context of the scientific community.

Come back when you've studied science past the high-school level (this is being generous), and have an understanding of the subject matter that goes beyond dictionary.com.

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 26 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[Kid_SixXx]

So, what faith do you choose? The faith which bears fruit.

IMO, Any philosophy that ultimately benefits society is a good one whether it espouses a deity or the lack of a deity.

All "religions" (even athiesm) tend to advocate social responsibility.  There are some points of contention when it comes to the advocacy of morality or spiritual procedure (ie. I have seen more arguments brew up about how to worship rather than why you should worship in the first place..) but no two people will do the same thing the same way.

That's the failing point of religious debate.  When it comes down to the fate of souls and how to save them, there really isn't any room where it is acceptable to agree to disagree.

I say that with the caveat that I am no religious scholar or anything.  Just a guy finding his way like everyone else.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 26 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[massive_effect]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

I don't think that Sci-Fi posits the death of spirtuality, rather it posits the death of the "intelligent design" aspects of Christianity being accepted as fact.

As well it should be given all of the physical evidence to the contrary.

Sentient beings seem to have an inherent need to believe in something beyond themselves and even sci-fi that seems to embrace the harder sciences has some aspects of spirituality to them, especially cyberpunk.

Even belief in the absense of God is arguably faith based since it is important to your philosophical well being that there is no cosmic father figure keeping track of your lapses in morality.

You are absolutely correct in saying that atheism is a faith. Whatever anyone believes which can't be scientifically proven is a faith.

So, what faith do you choose? The faith which bears fruit.

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.
So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

If so then you're an athiest, with a faith in the non-existence of pink unicorns, unless of course you believe they exist.

Man sinned against God and God left Man in a sinful and confusing world. This is why we need faith.

You can't prove or disprove, using the scientific method, God's existance.

Why is a woman beautiful? Because God loves Man.

Science can't explain the virtue of love (not to be confused with the passion).

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

massive_effect wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

I don't think that Sci-Fi posits the death of spirtuality, rather it posits the death of the "intelligent design" aspects of Christianity being accepted as fact.

As well it should be given all of the physical evidence to the contrary.

Sentient beings seem to have an inherent need to believe in something beyond themselves and even sci-fi that seems to embrace the harder sciences has some aspects of spirituality to them, especially cyberpunk.

Even belief in the absense of God is arguably faith based since it is important to your philosophical well being that there is no cosmic father figure keeping track of your lapses in morality.

You are absolutely correct in saying that atheism is a faith. Whatever anyone believes which can't be scientifically proven is a faith.

So, what faith do you choose? The faith which bears fruit.

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.
So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

If so then you're an athiest, with a faith in the non-existence of pink unicorns, unless of course you believe they exist.

Man sinned against God and God left Man in a sinful and confusing world. This is why we need faith.

You can't prove or disprove, using the scientific method, God's existance.

Why is a woman beautiful? Because God loves Man.

Science can't explain the virtue of love (not to be confused with the passion).

No, this is why YOU need faith.

Of course I can disprove god, just like I can disprove Pink Unicorns and Celestial Teapots, in fact its easier; the last two items aren't supposed to have created the universe.

[RighteousRage]

Goth Skunk wrote...

In the first ME book, where Captain Anderson goes on his mission with Saren, the topic of religion is briefly touched upon.

I'm paraphrasing here, but basically it was written that after the discovery of the Prothean ruins on Mars and the knowledge that was found there, there was a major shake-up on Earth and religions started seeing their congregations disappearing in droves. The Prothean ruins proved at the very least that if Humanity isn't alone, they certainly weren't the first to explore space. The First Contact War further escalated the turning away from Religion as a source of guidance.

Religion isn't dead in the Mass Effect universe, but it no longer is as influential on people as it was in the past.

Having said that, the celebrations of things like Christmas, Easter, Halloween etc would likely continue to happen even in the complete absence of religion and spirituality, if only for the sake of tradition. Whether you're Christian or not, Christmas is treated even amongst atheists as a time for the family to get together and celebrate that togetherness. Never let it be said that merriment ought be justified.

finally someone gives the proper response

[Kid_SixXx]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.

So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

Heh. I have seen athiest argue the point that there is no ethereal father figure more fervantly than Christians argue that there is a sky daddy.

Hence, the absence of God is the core belief of an athiest; anti-faith so to speak. 

It is important to athiest that there is no god and they tend to love to assure themselves of this to the point of criticizing Christians for their dependance on a cosmic security blanket just as Christians have the unreal assumption that it is impossible for a human being to be a productive and benevolent creature if he does not believe in their particular version of the Supreme Being.

Heck, that argument goes for inter-denominational conflict as well.  Same Jesus, different church?  INCONCEIVABLE~!

[Kid_SixXx]

RighteousRage wrote...

Goth Skunk wrote...

In the first ME book, where Captain Anderson goes on his mission with Saren, the topic of religion is briefly touched upon.

I'm paraphrasing here, but basically it was written that after the discovery of the Prothean ruins on Mars and the knowledge that was found there, there was a major shake-up on Earth and religions started seeing their congregations disappearing in droves. The Prothean ruins proved at the very least that if Humanity isn't alone, they certainly weren't the first to explore space. The First Contact War further escalated the turning away from Religion as a source of guidance.

Religion isn't dead in the Mass Effect universe, but it no longer is as influential on people as it was in the past.

Having said that, the celebrations of things like Christmas, Easter, Halloween etc would likely continue to happen even in the complete absence of religion and spirituality, if only for the sake of tradition. Whether you're Christian or not, Christmas is treated even amongst atheists as a time for the family to get together and celebrate that togetherness. Never let it be said that merriment ought be justified.

finally someone gives the proper response

I agree.  The answer given in the context of the game is the right answer.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

I'm sorry, I had a chuckle at that one.

So athiesm is a faith? A faith in what exactly, an non existence of a sky daddy? Which remember is an absurd proposition, with no back up evidence apart from some old books.

Heh. I have seen athiest argue the point that there is no ethereal father figure more fervantly than Christians argue that there is a sky daddy.

Hence, the absence of God is the core belief of an athiest; anti-faith so to speak. 

It is important to athiest that there is no god and they tend to love to assure themselves of this to the point of criticizing Christians for their dependance on a cosmic security blanket just as Christians have the unreal assumption that it is impossible for a human being to be a productive and benevolent creature if he does not believe in their particular version of the Supreme Being.

Heck, that argument goes for inter-denominational conflict as well.  Same Jesus, different church?  INCONCEIVABLE~!

Actually I never think about it unless a theist brings it up. I can actually get through an whole day, yep I know its hard to believe, without once, not even once, thinking of how I don't believe in a god.

Sometimes I amaze even myself.

/sarcasm off