449 réponses à ce sujet

[Dogmatic Atheist]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

In some segments of society, there are those that do indeed work very hard to keep from working.

As for Athiesm being a religion, the belief that there is no God is as precious to the core beliefs of an athiest as believing in God is to the core beliefs of a Christian but that doesn't necessarily make it a religion.

Religion requires dogma and athiesm doesn't. 

Theism without dogma isn't religion either.

There are many atheists, myself included, that think atheism as a word shouldn't even exist. We don't have words for someone who doesn't believe in fairies or uincorns (there is not an a-unicornist), so the same should apply for gods.

You are right that it is just as absurd to believe with 100% certainty that gods do not exist as it is to believe with 100% certainty that gods do exist, since it cannot be proven either way. And with a question that cannot proven one way or the other, the only intellectually honest position you can take is the negative. 

Secondly, my dictionary defines religion as:

"the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods :"

How you can fit atheism into that definition defies all logic. Believers like to claim that atheism is a religion in an attempt bring it down to the same level as religious belief, but the comparison is absurd to the highest degree. Absence of belief is not in itself a belief.

[Dogmatic Atheist]

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

[vhatever]

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

Atheism is a faith based belief system. They believe something they cannot prove, hence make all the same faith based assumptions that deists and theists do. It's pretty close to a religion, but I don't think it qualifies because it has no ritual/worship element, really not that far from it, however.

[Dogmatic Atheist]

vhatever wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

Atheism is a faith based belief system. They believe something they cannot prove, hence make all the same faith based assumptions that deists and theists do. It's pretty close to a religion, but I don't think it qualifies because it has no ritual/worship element, really not that far from it, however.

You completely ignored everything I just said. Atheism doesn't describe what you *do* believe, it describes what you *don't* believe. An atheist can't say with 100% certainty that there is no god, we can just say the probability of one existing is probably pretty close to zero. There are probably some atheists that claim with 100% certainty that god doesn't exist, but I don't know any who do. It's an intellectually dishonest position.

Calling atheism a religion or belief system is what the believer does in an attempt to equate the two to make themselves feel better about believing bronze age mythology as truth with zero supporting evidence. When someone says that atheism is a religion, it's an immediate telltale sign that the person has no clue about what atheism really means. Just as when someone says that "evolution is only theory" you can be sure they know absolutely nothing about the scientific process or the theory of evolution. It's basically a deflection of attention away from the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

In short, "BZZZT!", try again. Thanks for playing.

[Inarai]

vhatever wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

Atheism is a faith based belief system. They believe something they cannot prove, hence make all the same faith based assumptions that deists and theists do. It's pretty close to a religion, but I don't think it qualifies because it has no ritual/worship element, really not that far from it, however.

Way to be ignorant!  I do not mean this as an insult, but as a statement of fact:  Your statement is ignorant, as in lacking in knowledge and understanding, of the matter under discussion.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

Modifié par Inarai, 28 février 2010 - 07:16 .

[massive_effect]

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

[massive_effect]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

The Catholic Church recently discussed the possiblity of alien life, but I don't know what they concluded. However, it is common sense that if you haven't seen aliens, you shouldn't assume they exist. Carl Sagan had deduced that aliens must exist based on the mathmatical probability of life spawning and the incredible number of planets in the universe. The only problem with that model is that we only have one planet with life, and we can't explain how we spawned scientifically.

Soooo.. if we shouldn't assume that Alien life exists because we can't categorically prove it's existence, due to the fact that nobody has seen any, can we also categorically dismiss a Deity for the very same reasons?

I should say so.

Aliens are basically men on other planets. Aliens are part of the physical universe, just like us. So, it would be delusional to actually believe that aliens exist if you have not seen one. (It's ok to theorize, but not ok to actually believe.)

[Dogmatic Atheist]

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

Why are you assuming an atheist ignores those questions? And more importantly, why do you think that an atheist can't provide an answer the these questions?

Modifié par Dogmatic Atheist, 28 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[Dogmatic Atheist]

massive_effect wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

The Catholic Church recently discussed the possiblity of alien life, but I don't know what they concluded. However, it is common sense that if you haven't seen aliens, you shouldn't assume they exist. Carl Sagan had deduced that aliens must exist based on the mathmatical probability of life spawning and the incredible number of planets in the universe. The only problem with that model is that we only have one planet with life, and we can't explain how we spawned scientifically.

Soooo.. if we shouldn't assume that Alien life exists because we can't categorically prove it's existence, due to the fact that nobody has seen any, can we also categorically dismiss a Deity for the very same reasons?

I should say so.

Aliens are basically men on other planets. Aliens are part of the physical universe, just like us. So, it would be delusional to actually believe that aliens exist if you have not seen one. (It's ok to theorize, but not ok to actually believe.)

Probability suggests that there are other life forms out there in the universe. Of all the trillions of stars in the universe, we know of at least one that has an orbiting planet that harbors life. It's more probable than not that there are other planets that have life out there as well given the sheer number of possible stars and planets. We've already detected over 200 extra-solar planets and will find more as our telescopes become more sophisticated. So it's not delusional to believe that there are other life forms out there in the universe based on the laws of probability.

[Avilan II]

massive_effect wrote...

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

I don't see a problem answering these questions. I do see a problem in arguing that these questions are "fundamental", or why an atheist "can't ignore them". Please clarify.

Also, about your second point: this is why we have libraries!

[Inquisitor Recon]

Wow. Within six pages some guy who has actually named his profile "atheist" is arguing that atheism isn't a religion, yet he acts like a damn preacher of it. This is the reason I despise atheism gentlemen. The hypocrisy is astounding.



Despite what they say they have no "scientific basis" over a theist or deist or just about anybody, and despite what they think, they aren't the ones to determine what is logical or illogical.

[Inarai]

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

That's purely a diversion - though I have both scientifc and philosophical answers to both, they aren't actually related to atheism - because that's not what atheism is or does.

And I do question how those are fundamental questions.  Seems to me you just pulled those out of your posterior.

And I'd question your "facts", too.

ReconTeam wrote...

Wow. Within six pages some guy who has
actually named his profile "atheist" is arguing that atheism isn't a
religion, yet he acts like a damn preacher of it. This is the reason I
despise atheism gentlemen. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Despite
what they say they have no "scientific basis" over a theist or deist or
just about anybody, and despite what they think, they aren't the ones to
determine what is logical or illogical.

1: That's like saying I despise all religious people for being - actually, you know what, I don't think I need to list the transgressions of the religious.  The point is, that sort of generalization is the height of ignorance.
2: The point many atheists make is the LACK of basis as a reason to reject a claim.  That is sufficient - if you wish to claim something.  Atheism is not, by definition, a claim - it is simply not accepting a claim made be someone else.

Modifié par Inarai, 28 février 2010 - 11:50 .

[Avilan II]

ReconTeam wrote...

Wow. Within six pages some guy who has actually named his profile "atheist" is arguing that atheism isn't a religion, yet he acts like a damn preacher of it. This is the reason I despise atheism gentlemen. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Despite what they say they have no "scientific basis" over a theist or deist or just about anybody, and despite what they think, they aren't the ones to determine what is logical or illogical.

It dependson what you mean with "scientific basis". An atheist cannot scientifically prove that God(s) does not exist. Of course in an argument the one making the claim (aka "God exists") is the one that has to produce proof.

Anyway, there is a very strong and solid scientific basis for disproving a lot of religious claims, and in those specific cases (the age of the Earth and the universe, the shape of our planet, evolution etc) atheists most definitely have a "scientific advantage" over religious fundamentalists.

[massive_effect]

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

Why are you assuming an atheist ignores those questions? And more importantly, why do you think that an atheist can't provide an answer the these questions?

My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

[Cris Shepard]

massive_effect wrote...

The C-Sec officer, Baily, joked about sending him a Christmas card. The reason I think this is cool is that most science fiction posits that Christianity will die out. Since Christianity has only grown over 2000 years, it makes sense that it would last another two hundred.

(Please don't turn this into a religious war topic. This is just an observation of a rarity in sci-fi.)

How has it grown lol? There are more non-believers now-a-days then there ever was back then.. Back then you didn't really have any choice in what you believed, although it is similar today we at least have a choice.. I am not religious or spiritual but I celebrate Christmas out of tradition and I do believe there was a MAN named Jesus who was ahead of his time that spoke of love, not the divine being that is Gods right hand on earth..

Just thought I would throw that out there, but ya, I don't see how Christmas wouldn't be celebrated anymore in the future, for obvious reasons it wouldn't have as much impact as it does present time but it would still be there for the sake of tradition..

[PyroFreak301]

massive_effect wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

Why are you assuming an atheist ignores those questions? And more importantly, why do you think that an atheist can't provide an answer the these questions?

My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

This is my biggest problem with many religions. They manipulate one of the most basic and intense of human emotions to bend people to their beliefs.

If I were to tell a child that a big vengeful unicorn that lives behind the clouds would torture him for eternity if he didn't believe in it and listen to me, he would follow my words out of fear. It's a pretty similar thing with Christianity, I wouldn't want to cross the Old Testament God.

[Inarai]

massive_effect wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

Why are you assuming an atheist ignores those questions? And more importantly, why do you think that an atheist can't provide an answer the these questions?

My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

...  On what do you base that?  I certainly don't claim to have everything figured out.  Seems, again, like an excessively broad generalization without foundation.

[theartistformerlyknownas]

whew...sounds like a freshmen year philosophy class in these parts.

[Avilan II]

massive_effect wrote...
My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

I am sorry, but I can't even begin to undertand what you mean, where you are coming from?

[javierabegazo]

Hmm...I"m going to lock this. Last time I checked, Woo didn't like religious debates going on in the forums. If one of you wants to create a group to discuss the matter, then do so, I'll give the thread a day for someone to post a link to the group, after which I'll lock the thread.



Sorry to be the bad guy

[Inquisitor Recon]

Commander Shepard would shoot all of you godless commies in the foot.

[massive_effect]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

There are some factual questions that you should consider regarding faith.

1) The world is not perfect, but we can imagine a perfect world. Why?

2) We die, but we want to live forever. Why?

3) Women are beautiful. Why?

These are three fundamental questions that deserve answers. Any atheist (or anyone that only believes in what he sees) can't just ignore questions like these. Also, keep in mind that in our short life, no man can know everything about everything by empircal study. He couldn't even know everything about a single hair on his head.

Why are you assuming an atheist ignores those questions? And more importantly, why do you think that an atheist can't provide an answer the these questions?

My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

This is my biggest problem with many religions. They manipulate one of the most basic and intense of human emotions to bend people to their beliefs.

If I were to tell a child that a big vengeful unicorn that lives behind the clouds would torture him for eternity if he didn't believe in it and listen to me, he would follow my words out of fear. It's a pretty similar thing with Christianity, I wouldn't want to cross the Old Testament God.

This type of fear is called "filial" fear. It isn't the fear of punishment alone. It is the fear of offending. It's like following the orders of your parents (or a girlfriend, or a spouse). You don't want to make them mad because you love them.

We can't know everything, but we can begin know when we do as God says.

Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

[massive_effect]

javierabegazo wrote...

Hmm...I"m going to lock this. Last time I checked, Woo didn't like religious debates going on in the forums. If one of you wants to create a group to discuss the matter, then do so, I'll give the thread a day for someone to post a link to the group, after which I'll lock the thread.

Sorry to be the bad guy

It's ok. Just lock it.

It's easy to fall into debates like this. It was fun while it lasted!

[massive_effect]

Avilan II wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

I am sorry, but I can't even begin to undertand what you mean, where you are coming from?

A faithful man believes that he is created by God.

An atheist believes that he spawned from a crystal.

You can't prove either with empirical science, but it is explained with faith.

So, if you have faith in God, and fear God, then you can begin to know.