449 réponses à ce sujet

[PyroFreak301]

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

[vhatever]

Inarai wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

Atheism is a faith based belief system. They believe something they cannot prove, hence make all the same faith based assumptions that deists and theists do. It's pretty close to a religion, but I don't think it qualifies because it has no ritual/worship element, really not that far from it, however.

Way to be ignorant!  I do not mean this as an insult, but as a statement of fact:  Your statement is ignorant, as in lacking in knowledge and understanding, of the matter under discussion.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

You don't get to change the meanings of words just to suit your pathetic, illogical argument. Atheism is the BELIEF there is no  supernatural god-like entity in the universe. The completely sophomoric and fallacious argument that a negative belief is not a believe is about is dumb as a negative number is not a number. It's all semantical masturbation. You can change theism around the same way and say that "theism is the disbelief the universe could be created without a supernatural God".

This goes double for the other lamer who called me "ignorant". Heh. I Probably forget more on the toilet than he will learn in his whole miserable existence.
 

Modifié par vhatever, 01 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

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[newcomplex]

Inarai wrote...
Way to be ignorant!  I do not mean this as an insult, but as a statement of fact:  Your statement is ignorant, as in lacking in knowledge and understanding, of the matter under discussion.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

If you believe in nothing, what is your motivation to live.

Your going to say something.   It doesn't matter what.    Now, ask yourself, what is the universal basis for that answer?   It exists solely within our heads, as the emprical structure of the universe and of science cannot answer the question of meaning.     So if it has no basis, it is a belief.    Your purpose for being alive is a belief.


Belief in something you made up?   Sounds like a religion to me.

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 12:56 .

[PyroFreak301]

vhatever wrote...
You don't get to change the meanings of words just to suit your pathetic, illogical argument. Atheism is the BELIEF there is no  supernatural god-like entity in the universe. The completely sophomoric and fallacious argument that a negative belief is not a believe is about is dumb as a negative number is not a number. It's all semantical masturbation. You can change theism around the same way and say that "theism is the disbelief the universe could be created without a supernatural God".

This goes double for the other lamer who called me "ignorant". Heh. I Probably forget more on the toilet than he will learn in his whole miserable existence.
 

I would make a clear distinction between belief and faith seeing as that's where a lot of the confusion seems to be coming from. Atheists believe that there is no God... there is no faith required in looking at what we know about the universe and coming to your own conclusion.

Faith on the other hand is believing the word of another for things there is no evidence for. Taking their word with so much trust they're willing to base their life around it.

In short: Both believe in something, but only theists have faith.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 01 mars 2010 - 12:58 .

[newcomplex]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Inarai wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

> With science, you seek the truth.
>
> With religion and spirituality, you start with the truth.

I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of this statement.

In any case, saying that atheism is a religion is like saying being unemployed is a profession.

I'm not sure if your addressing my post i posted last night, but I never made that statement.  

Atheism IS a religion.    Simply put, what foundations do you have for your motives, your drives, your interests in life?   What determines their signficance other then personal belief?   And is their a universal law that comfirms that belief, whether it be hedonism or darwinism or plain people and urselfism?   No.    The foundation for our reality is belief, like a Christian.    We simply believe different things.    

My comment wasn't really directed at you, but others.

Secondly, atheism is not a religion or even a world view. Atheism addresses none of the questions you posed above. There's no way it possibly could, as atheism imposes no belief or dogma on a person. None of the decisions I make in my life can be influenced by atheism. The only thing you can imply from my atheism is that I reject the claims of all of the world's current religions. Atheism is only a description of what I *don't* believe, not what I *do* believe.

And as Richard Dawkins famously says, Christians are atheists too when it comes to Zeus or Baal or Jupiter. I just go one god further than you do.

Atheism is a faith based belief system. They believe something they cannot prove, hence make all the same faith based assumptions that deists and theists do. It's pretty close to a religion, but I don't think it qualifies because it has no ritual/worship element, really not that far from it, however.

Way to be ignorant!  I do not mean this as an insult, but as a statement of fact:  Your statement is ignorant, as in lacking in knowledge and understanding, of the matter under discussion.

Atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural.  Pure and simple.  It is, essentially, defining oneself by what one isn't - which is why many people disagree with the whole label.  There is no faith based assumption.  Nada.  Zip.

In FACT:  Anything past not accepting the idea that there are gods is, by definition, something else.

You don't get to change the meanings of words just to suit your pathetic, illogical argument. Atheism is the BELIEF there is no  supernatural god-like entity in the universe. The completely sophomoric and fallacious argument that a negative belief is not a believe is about is dumb as a negative number is not a number. It's all semantical masturbation. You can change theism around the same way and say that "theism is the disbelief the universe could be created without a supernatural God".

This goes double for the other lamer who called me "ignorant". Heh. I Probably forget more on the toilet than he will learn in his whole miserable existence.
 

I would make a clear distinction between belief and faith seeing as that's where a lot of the confusion seems to be coming from. Atheists believe that there is no God... there is no faith required in looking at what we know about the universe and coming to your own conclusion.

Faith on the other hand is believing the word of another for things there is no evidence for. Taking their word with so much trust they're willing to base their life around it.

In short: Both believe in something, but only theists have faith.

"Faith requires not the belief in a god, but the belief in yourself that you can determine if their is."
-A man much wiser then you.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 mars 2010 - 01:03 .

[vhatever]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
You don't get to change the meanings of words just to suit your pathetic, illogical argument. Atheism is the BELIEF there is no  supernatural god-like entity in the universe. The completely sophomoric and fallacious argument that a negative belief is not a believe is about is dumb as a negative number is not a number. It's all semantical masturbation. You can change theism around the same way and say that "theism is the disbelief the universe could be created without a supernatural God".

This goes double for the other lamer who called me "ignorant". Heh. I Probably forget more on the toilet than he will learn in his whole miserable existence.
 

I would make a clear distinction between belief and faith seeing as that's where a lot of the confusion seems to be coming from. Atheists believe that there is no God... there is no faith required in looking at what we know about the universe and coming to your own conclusion.

Faith on the other hand is believing the word of another for things there is no evidence for. Taking their word with so much trust they're willing to base their life around it.

In short: Both believe in something, but only theists have faith.

They both have faith. It's just more semantics. Faith is belief in something you cannot prove/know. Can a religious person prove their god-like entity exists? Can an athiest prove a god-like entity does not exist?

No, and no. They are both faith based belief system.

[PyroFreak301]

vhatever wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

vhatever wrote...
You don't get to change the meanings of words just to suit your pathetic, illogical argument. Atheism is the BELIEF there is no  supernatural god-like entity in the universe. The completely sophomoric and fallacious argument that a negative belief is not a believe is about is dumb as a negative number is not a number. It's all semantical masturbation. You can change theism around the same way and say that "theism is the disbelief the universe could be created without a supernatural God".

This goes double for the other lamer who called me "ignorant". Heh. I Probably forget more on the toilet than he will learn in his whole miserable existence.
 

I would make a clear distinction between belief and faith seeing as that's where a lot of the confusion seems to be coming from. Atheists believe that there is no God... there is no faith required in looking at what we know about the universe and coming to your own conclusion.

Faith on the other hand is believing the word of another for things there is no evidence for. Taking their word with so much trust they're willing to base their life around it.

In short: Both believe in something, but only theists have faith.

They both have faith. It's just more semantics. Faith is belief in something you cannot prove/know. Can a religious person prove their god-like entity exists? Can an athiest prove a god-like entity does not exist?

No, and no. They are both faith based belief system.

So I have faith that we're here by one big glorious accident of physics? That sounds a little bizzare. I've come to my belief by my own reasoning which involved very little of accepting what someone told me and running with it. Faith would imply blind trust.

I also don't trust religions that make a claim on everything unknowable, then fight science tooth and nail to keep hold of these ideas. They fought science on the world being flat, evolution, earth not being center of the universe etc. When people claim wisdom from God, get it horribly wrong, then continue to try and silence undeniable scientific evidence, I fail to see your God's wisdom... Only the arrogance and power abuse of man. Hell, mans greatest act of arrogance was shaping God around our image.

[Roxlimn]

Faith is the belief in something beyond what the empirical data tells you. For instance, some people believe that Evolution is a fact. It is not. It is a theory. This means that it is not inherent in the empirical data, but an interpretation of that data, which may or may not be true. Evolutionary Theory changes all the time.



Belief in Evolutionary Theory beyond data is faith, just as belief in the Christian God is faith. Likewise, belief in the existence of aliens is itself, faith. It may be likely, it may even be overwhelmingly likely, but in the absence of empirical data, it's just supposition and speculation.



Truly insightful empirical scientists (including Einstein) place their faith in something other than science because they know exactly how far science goes and what it tells us about the world, and that reach is not all that far. We speculate that the Earth is such and such an age and the Sun is such and such an age, but all of that is based on an assumption that so and so an element ages evenly for the entire period - which is an unconfirmable assumption.



It's like observing a watch for the last 5 seconds of a day, and assuming that it's been going at the same rate for the last 24 hours, when it could easily be a windup watch that's been slowing down.

[vhatever]

Look, I don't care . Your little story about your journey in this thing called life is not what is being discussed or debated. I do not care what you think, as I have no asked your opinion. Vomiting out a bunch of illogical atheist cliches doesn't make your "story" or argument any more compelling to me, nor any less faith based.

[Ryzaki]

Atheism is a faith based system....



*facepalms*



Sooo much failure in this thread.

[massive_effect]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

[Ryzaki]

I'm staying the hell out of this. Too much trollin in this thread. BTW: Atheism is simply not believing in a god. That's it. There are various kinds of atheists and trying to place them all in one box makes as much sense as doing such to Christians.

Edit: Though yes atheists can be annoying condenscending, idiotic and incorrect too...just like religious people! Whodadunk!?!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[vhatever]

Ryzaki wrote...

Atheism is a faith based system....

*facepalms*

Sooo much failure in this thread.

Well your ass showing up definitely put the fail cherry on the top of the turd sundae.

[Dogmatic Atheist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Atheism is a faith based system....

*facepalms*

Sooo much failure in this thread.

The only failure is your ability to understand what you are talking about.

[Ryzaki]

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Atheism is a faith based system....

*facepalms*

Sooo much failure in this thread.

The only failure is your ability to understand what you are talking about.

And what is that? 

Or did you not see the posts trying to claim Atheism is a religion? 

[Dogmatic Atheist]

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

People only believe in god because other people tell them to. If everyone woke up tomorrow and all religious belief disappeared from everyone's mind and all religious texts disappeared, people would all go about their lives like they normally would and no one would have cause to believe that there was a god in control.

[PyroFreak301]

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

Because these things havn't been institutionalised into the most basic level of society. You throw a growing mind into any society which genuinely beleive {insert aburdity here} exists, he too will beleive it. It's leftover from an age where religion used fear to control people.

A question you should ask yourself is why so many people (a number comparable to Christianity) believe in a different God to yours. It's not a crazy thought like unicorns, but it's an entirely different God all the same. How are you to decide which is the right God? If, by chance, you were born in an Islamic country, wouldn't you follow their God with the same level of faith you follow yours with?

[Ryzaki]

vhatever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Atheism is a faith based system....

*facepalms*

Sooo much failure in this thread.

Well your ass showing up definitely put the fail cherry on the top of the turd sundae.

Aw...look at the cute little troll. *pokes*

[Dogmatic Atheist]

ReconTeam wrote...

Wow. Within six pages some guy who has actually named his profile "atheist" is arguing that atheism isn't a religion, yet he acts like a damn preacher of it. This is the reason I despise atheism gentlemen. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Despite what they say they have no "scientific basis" over a theist or deist or just about anybody, and despite what they think, they aren't the ones to determine what is logical or illogical.

Wow, how wrong you are, sir. There is no "scientific basis" for atheism because atheism doesn't make a scientific claim. The burden of proof lies with the theist, and the atheist just feels that the theist hasn't presented a strong enough argument. That's it.

Secondly, what's hypocritical about correcting other people's misconceptions about atheism?

[vhatever]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

Because these things havn't been institutionalised into the most basic level of society. You throw a growing mind into any society which genuinely beleive {insert aburdity here} exists, he too will beleive it. It's leftover from an age where religion used fear to control people.

A question you should ask yourself is why so many people (a number comparable to Christianity) believe in a different God to yours. It's not a crazy thought like unicorns, but it's an entirely different God all the same. How are you to decide which is the right God? If, by chance, you were born in an Islamic country, wouldn't you follow their God with the same level of faith you follow yours with?

Uhh, Muslims and Jews believe in the same God as Christians. Jews don't confer any divinity to Jesus while Muslims do, but do not see him as a "God aspect".

[Dogmatic Atheist]

massive_effect wrote...

Avilan II wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
My point is that, without faith, no question can be completely answered. Yet, atheists claim to have "figured it out". Atheists believe in the physical world alone. Yet, they can't begin to explain it.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge..." Prov 1:7

I am sorry, but I can't even begin to undertand what you mean, where you are coming from?

A faithful man believes that he is created by God.

An atheist believes that he spawned from a crystal.

You can't prove either with empirical science, but it is explained with faith.

So, if you have faith in God, and fear God, then you can begin to know.

A crystal? I know a lot of atheists and I've never heard a single person state they believe they spawned from a crystal.

I'd ask you where you got your whacky ideas, but since you believe in god I guess that explains it.

[PyroFreak301]

vhatever wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

Because these things havn't been institutionalised into the most basic level of society. You throw a growing mind into any society which genuinely beleive {insert aburdity here} exists, he too will beleive it. It's leftover from an age where religion used fear to control people.

A question you should ask yourself is why so many people (a number comparable to Christianity) believe in a different God to yours. It's not a crazy thought like unicorns, but it's an entirely different God all the same. How are you to decide which is the right God? If, by chance, you were born in an Islamic country, wouldn't you follow their God with the same level of faith you follow yours with?

Uhh, Muslims and Jews believe in the same God as Christians. Jews don't confer any divinity to Jesus while Muslims do, but do not see him as a "God aspect".

Yet they preach different ideologies, and many would condemn you to hell for following the Islamic God rather than the Christian God.

[massive_effect]

Ryzaki wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
Also, it is common for atheists to compare unicorns, big foot, faires, etc...to faith in God. You are right that you could tell a child a lie about a vengeful unicorn, and he would likely believe it for a short time. He would be deceived, though. This is the challenge of faith. The only thing you can do is seek the truth. Effort is required.

I know it's going to be closed, but I'll say my part anyway.

Surely if this child was brought up in a closed society where everyone believed in the same unicorn, they would go their entire life believing it was just as real as you feel your God to be. Word of your 'true' God would sound just as alien to them as a Hindu God would to you. "It's common for non-believers to compare them to humans, deny His true unicorn shape etc".  I don't see how it's any different from real world christianity.

The questions you could ask yourself are: Why don't most people believe crazy things like Big Foot, or magic unicorns? Why do most people believe in God?

Because they're raised to believe its real from a young age. What else? 

No different than other countries believing in their gods/goddess. They were raised to do so or found the religion did something for them (brought comfort, among other things).

Quick history lesson:

1) God made Man.
2) Man sinned.
3) God could not remain with Man in a sinful state (just like a cheating spouse).
4) Man lost faith and made pagan religions, except for Jews.
5) Pagan parents taught kids pagan religion.
6) Jewish parents taught kids the truth.
7) Jesus was sent as promised to the Jews.
8) 2200 years later, Officer Bailey jokes about sending him a Christmas card.

My point is that there is a real history to what parents teach. It is not make-believe junk.

[vhatever]

Dogmatic Atheist wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Wow. Within six pages some guy who has actually named his profile "atheist" is arguing that atheism isn't a religion, yet he acts like a damn preacher of it. This is the reason I despise atheism gentlemen. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Despite what they say they have no "scientific basis" over a theist or deist or just about anybody, and despite what they think, they aren't the ones to determine what is logical or illogical.

Wow, how wrong you are, sir. There is no "scientific basis" for atheism because atheism doesn't make a scientific claim. The burden of proof lies with the theist, and the atheist just feels that the theist hasn't presented a strong enough argument. That's it.

Secondly, what's hypocritical about correcting other people's misconceptions about atheism?

If you don't think the argument is strong enough to make a distinction, then you cannot be an atheist. An atheist makes the distinction with all currently available information. You are refering to a more agnostic position. You aren't correcting anything, just looking really dumb.