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[Zulu_DFA]

In many threads on these boards people discuss what was the "right" or "wrong" thing to do in such&such situation. But is there a way to measure it, what's actually right and wrong, in the ME universe, and for us , as players? The paragon/renegade scale is there, but it falls short of proving anything. Commander Shepard could have been so far a self-righteous goody-two-shoes, or a psycopathic douchebag, or an incosistent neither-fish-nor-fowl. And nothing he's done so far came back to bite him in the arse.

So what's the point of the "BIG CHOICES"? Either way you win just by clicking your mouse on something.

BioWare should make victory in ME3 impossible for certain combination of choices from ME1&2, and nearly impossible for some other combination. And easy for some combinations. On average, "canon" if you wish, combination prescribed for "Create new ME3 character" start it must be possible, of course. But having a Rachni queen smiling under "The End" sign or not having it there as "the consequence" is no fun. At all.

It would be a bold business decision, but if taken, it will truly make Mass Effect a groundbreaking franchise.

Most people have several characters with different paths anyway. Those who don't (like me) are putting much thinking in their decision making (with or without meta-gaming). Some people keep their very first playthroughs of ME1 and ME2 to see the consequenses of their choices made at the time even unconsious metagaming was not possible. Some, out of sheer curiousity or boredom are intentionally searching for the "SNAFUBAR scenario". As I said, it ought to be a combination of choices, not some single choice. But if there is such a "terminator combination", it makes gameplay far more thrilling and immersive.

I repeat, I have only a single story of *my* Shepard and indulge in thinking that my choices are "the best". Of course I'll be dissapointed if it turns out they are the single worst possible combination, and the Reapers eat *my* Galaxy in the end, but that's a risk I am willing to take as a player and BioWare customer.

Seriously, I can't see how screwing over 0.1% minus of all ME players will make it a problem for BioWare (they seem to have screwed over a lot more with the shooter-RPG gameplay shift). It will only make their future trademarks more spicy. Because the amount of thrill of playing any next "trilogy" they anounce will grow tenfold.

HOW IT CAN WORK

Mass Effect = Shepard vs. Reapers
Coexistence prohibited.

Three possible outcomes:

1. Shepard wins, Reapers die. Galaxy saved. Commander Shepard asked to arrange the new order (become a President).

2. Shepard dies, Reapers die. Galaxy saved, but lies in ashes. Depending on the choices there is more or less ashes and TIM/Udina/Anderson/TurianCouncillor/RachniQueen/UrndotWrex/Legion becomes an Emperor.

3. Shepard dies, Reapers win. Galaxy eaten.


Now back to the Choices.

BIG CHOICES

Tier 1 - entire Galaxy
   Council choice
   C-Base choice

Tier 2 - a single species
   Rachni Queen choice
   Geth Heretics choice
   Tali's trial: advice about Geth war
   Genophage data choice

Tier 3 - factions within one species, inter-species relations
   Terra Firma choice
   Elias Keeler choice
   Tali's trial: evidence choice
   Wrex choice (Virmire)
   Human Councillor choice
   Kolyat's target choice
   Cerberus data choice - Tyrone Rawlings
   Cerberus data choice - the Shadow Broker
   BDTS choices

Note: the choices, that concern only a single character without position of power in ME universe, however much you may love them, are not that Big (this includes Ashley/Kaidan choice, LI choices, "suicide mission" fatalities).

Each Tier 1 & 2 choice (having a simple -- arbitrary, but hopefully respectful of common sense -- BioWare's explanation in the Epilogue) adds or subtracts a certain amount of Victory Score with Tier 3 choices working as modifiers to that amount.

Example (without 3rd tier):

Initial =50%
Council saved +50%
C-Base destroyed -50%
Rachni saved -20%
Genophage cured +15%
Wrex is King +5%
Heretics overwritten -30%
Tali evidence presented -20%
Quarians advised to go to war -10%
Some ME3 choice +50%
Another ME3 chioce +10%
______________________________
Outcome =50%

Or, more interestingly, only Tier 1 choices matter Victory-wise with substantial Tier 3 modifiers, while Tier 2 choices are important only Epilogue-wise determining which species rises to power in the most probable outcome #2.

Or it maybe somewhat like described here, in "ACT 4".

A new ME1 Shepard starts with 50% Victory Score. Default choices for new ME2 & ME3 Shepards equal 50% VS as well. If the player accumulates 50% (or more) VS by the Grand Final Battle, the outcome #1 ensues. If the total victory score drops to (or below) 0%, outcome #3 happens, Game Over. No Galaxy to import to whatever the next game BioWare stages in ME universe.

This system is not difficult to implement in the game, especially with their experience of making the ME2 "suicide mission" work. All it takes is to carefully calculate numbers to make outcome #3 unlikely and outcome #1 a challenge. A couple of "BIG CHOICES" should be included in ME3 to allow newbies too run for president or ditch the Galaxy. And easily correct the situation for those who screwed too much in ME1 & ME2, and are deep in sh*t the minus by the start of ME3 (but not achieve the best possible result = live with the consequences).


Note: and those who think that a lower probability of the best (or worst) result would discourage new players should read this first.

Also, for the lazy way to aquire 100% of ME3 content without the need to replay ME1&2 BioWare could release an official "Choice editor" tool, say, 10 mothts after ME3. Something allowing players to reset every choice from ME1&2 at the start of ME3.


RELATED THREADS

What Paragon choices are most likely to bite you in the *** in ME3?

What Renegade choices are most likely to bite you in the *** in ME3?

ME 3 Chance for failure?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 juin 2010 - 11:25 .

[wraith1113]

So what you're saying is the possibility of failure not just in the game play aspect, but the story itself, makes the experience richer? If so, I agree but I seriously doubt that a trilogy that is already in progress will say for the last iteration that "Hey, based on the decisions you made in the last two games your character could be boned! If you're starting a new character in this game it will be a little more challenging and/or will end up less successful as well!" That sort of thing would have to be announced while explaining the premise of the trilogy early on before the first release. While I'd be interested to see a game like that, I don't think Mass Effect 3 will be it.

Modifié par wraith1113, 26 février 2010 - 07:08 .

[phatpat63]

OP is a little harsh, but I agree in principle. I find it hard to be that optimistic though. Big choices didn't mean much change in ME2. Couple of different news clips here, an email or two there, a line of dialogue ever few hours. The biggest changes from game to game is whether you have an almost identical conversation with Ashley or Kaden, Wrex or Wreave(please correct me if you think I'm mistaken). Even the state of the Citadel makes perfect sense if you killed the counsel, but it's that way even if you saved them, given the requisite omission of one line about race riots.

Modifié par phatpat63, 26 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

wraith1113 wrote...

So what you're saying is the possibility of failure not just in the game play aspect, but the story itself, makes the experience richer? If so, I agree but I seriously doubt that a trilogy that is already in progress will say for the last iteration that "Hey, based on the decisions you made in the last two games your character could be boned! If you're starting a new character in this game it will be a little more challenging and/or will end up less successful as well!" That sort of thing would have to be announced while explaining the premise of the trilogy early on before the first release. While I'd be interested to see a game like that, I don't think Mass Effect 3 will be it.

Well, in a way that sort of thing has been announced already by telling us: "Hey keep your saves, choices matter!". And BioWare can even pull it quietly, then say: "Hey, we told you so!"

I think the final decision is being discussed in their underground bunker these very days, when the time is high for setting up the final ME3 parameters. Until now they've been were just monitoring the situation. They will clarify this somewhat closer to release, I am sure.

phatpat63 wrote...

OP is a little harsh, but I agree in principle. I find it hard to be that optimistic though. Big choices didn't mean much change in ME2. Couple of different news clips here, an email or two there, a line of dialogue ever few hours. The biggest changes from game to game is whether you have an almost identical conversation with Ashley or Kaden, Wrex or Wreave(please correct me if you think I'm mistaken). Even the state of the Citadel makes perfect sense if you killed the counsel, but it's that way even if you saved them, given the requisite omission of one line about race riots.

That's what I am talking about. In fact that was quite annoying. All these "Thank you" e-mails from every single folk I bothered to save in ME1. Luckily, being mostly renegade I met few old faces around the Galaxy. Else I'd have to talk to Kelly about having a Deja Vu Effect. And all those "consequences" had Zero Effect on the actual progress of *my* Shepard's mission.

As I take it, being the middle part of the trilogy, ME2 was restricted to those small choices, and BioWare was just sending the message: "Yes, choices matter, look at the consequences!"

Not the consequences I was looking for, BioWare! [Renegade interrupt blinks...]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[wraith1113]

If they're still talking about that sort of stuff I think they're only asking questions like "Is this really the way we want to handle this?" It sounds like they've already made up their minds and are in the stages of implementing their decisions.

[Vanaer]

As long as I dominate the galaxy with my repurposed reaper fleet. I will be the empress of the most epic Empire ever... ever... ever!

[sliverofamoon]

Vanaer wrote...

As long as I dominate the galaxy with my repurposed reaper fleet. I will be the empress of the most epic Empire ever... ever... ever!

LMAO Good One!

[RiverRat]

Ah yes, "choices". We have dismissed that claim.

[Irenicus10]

RiverRat wrote...

Ah yes, "choices". We have dismissed that claim.

ROFL

[Gerudan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So what's the point of the "big choices"? Either way you win just by clicking your mouse on something.

BioWare should make victory in ME3 impossible for certain combination of choices from ME1&2, and nearly impossible for some other combination.

The problem with this would be, that the ones who chose that combination would be all over the forum. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Gerudan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So what's the point of the "big choices"? Either way you win just by clicking your mouse on something.

BioWare should make victory in ME3 impossible for certain combination of choices from ME1&2, and nearly impossible for some other combination.

The problem with this would be, that the ones who chose that combination would be all over the forum. 

Come on, I can't see people who got their Shepard killed in ME2 "all over the forum". In fact, there is a lot of people asking "How the heck do I kill off Shepard on the suicide mission?"

As I said somewhere else they could so much as include a "Reapers win" achievement into ME3.

[ExtremeOne]

I disagree Op they will not make the game based on that. It would not be right to force players to play ME 1 and 2 just so they can finish ME 3

[DarthCaine]

It's a BioWare game, of course they don't (a little text at the ending isn't a consequence)

[Urazz]

I imagine the story will stay the same regardless but your choices from ME1 and ME2 ay change something like the amount of lives lost in the final battle or how easy it is to convince people to help you and stuff like that.

[Beholderess]

Not sure about you, but for me, it wouldn't be fun to play 3! games all over again just to get the desired outcome.



Plus, I...won't be comfortable with making some of the choices (renegade ones, mostly), and if they'll turn to be required for happy ending - I wouldn't see any point of playing.

What I'd like to see are several greatly different paths to success depending on previos choices. If each *big decidion* granted both advantage and disadvantage.

[ratzerman]

There are no BIG CHOICES. There is only the illusion of choice.

Save Ashley or Kaidan? - doesn't matter. Both get identical cameos.
Save the Council? - doesn't matter. You're treated the same, regardless.

Modifié par ratzerman, 27 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

I don't think that any ME2 save should not have the possibility of succeeding in the third game.

I do think that if you made poor choices, you should have to sacrifice a great deal to win, however.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 27 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[Oawa]

You do realize the amount of time it would take to make a trilogy that was that involved?



It took Bioware over 5 years just to make DA:O, and still people aren't completely happy with the amount of choices they were given in that game.



If Bioware, tried to increase the meaning of choices in the Mass Effect series, by the time the last one came out, most of us may not even have the dexterity to play video games anymore.

[Big I]

The whole point of this series is there is no one right way. Paragon or Renegade, you still stop Saren; you still stop the Collectors. The way it works is by rewarding you with unique gameplay moments; Wrex grabbing your arm, or meeting Parasinni on Illium.

Should there be consequence? Absolutely; lets have that rachni fleet, or that krogan army. But the absence of those elements cannot, and should not, make ME3 unwinnable. To do so would not only invalidate millions of playthroughs; it would not only make the story less fun to play through;  it would invalidate the personal nature of decision making in the Mass Effect canon. If people knew that killing the rachni would lose you ME3, no one would kill them; if people knew that saving the Council would make it harder to unite the galaxy against the Reapers, no one would save them. It is, in RPG terms, railroading; forcing a player to do certain story related actions, or lose. That's not what Mass Effect is about.

At the end of ME3, you will have stopped the Reapers. The most interesting thing will not be that you did so, but HOW.

[DarthCaine]

Oawa wrote...

It took Bioware over 5 years just to make DA:O, and still people aren't completely happy with the amount of choices they were given in that game.

DAO has lots of choices, but little to no consequences (a little text that anyone can write isn't a consequence).
Go play The Witcher and see how much choices can change the game

[Zulu_DFA]

ratzerman wrote...

There are no BIG CHOICES. There is only the illusion of choice.

Save Ashley or Kaidan? - doesn't matter. Both get identical cameos.
Save the Council? - doesn't matter. You're treated the same, regardless.

Save Ashley or Kaidan? - doesn't matter. Both get identical cameos.
- Not a big choice in fact. They're just one soldier in the war, and they don't have Prothen Cypher or Beacon visions in their head. And actually, metagaming is already present in the choice itself, as in-game it was the question of going the the AA tower to escape the blast, or returning to the bomb to ensure it goes off.

Save the Council? - doesn't matter. You're treated the same, regardless.
- You've seen immediate result of your choice. Within 2 years, there either is anti-human sentiment on the Citadel, or not. Within 4 years, in ME3 the change may be even more drastic. Combined with the choice about the C-Base, and some ME3 big choice, it may affect the "winnability itself" of the Grand Final Battle. Or it may not, if BioWare doesn't have guts for this.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 02:43 .

[ratzerman]

Littledoom wrote...

ratzerman wrote...

There are no BIG CHOICES. There is only the illusion of choice.

Save Ashley or Kaidan? - doesn't matter. Both get identical cameos.
Save the Council? - doesn't matter. You're treated the same, regardless.

This.. and as much as it pains me to say it but there is absolutely no point in playing ME1 if you haven't. I think I would have enjoyed ME2 a lot more if I hadn't played ME1. To many missed opportunities and to much disappointment. But thats just my opinion of course.

And don't forget Wrex!  If you let him die, you'll be forced to deal with........... his brother.