206 réponses à ce sujet

[ArcanistLibram]

ME3 should be "winnable" regardless of whether or not you played ME1 and ME2. However, I personally don't want a victory that doesn't involve Wrex leading a krogan fleet against the Reapers.

[Asheer_Khan]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I disagree Op they will not make the game based on that. It would not be right to force players to play ME 1 and 2 just so they can finish ME 3

Hmmm.... Actually acording to devs ME 3 WILL BE BASED in very huge part on ME 1/2 choices, so players who not play on ME 1 or 2 should NOT EVEN try ME 3 because IF Bioware will stick to thier promises players who will start pure ME 3 play will spend whit this game maybe 4 hours witness total annihilation of the galaxy by reapers.

That's why Mass Effect is called trilogy because each game is more or less connected .

Of course there will be choice to start default game but like i say starting play ME 3 without plays  two ealiest games is not only illogical but very dangerous for player health (anger management in extreme scale) when player will be set up before true mission impossible.

[Oawa]

DarthCaine wrote...

Oawa wrote...

It took Bioware over 5 years just to make DA:O, and still people aren't completely happy with the amount of choices they were given in that game.

DAO has lots of choices, but little to no consequences (a little text that anyone can write isn't a consequence).
Go play The Witcher and see how much choices can change the game

I tried playing The Witcher, just couldn't get passed the combat.  That was what...2-3 years ago tho? I read they tried to improve it, maybe I'll give it a shot.

Without giving spoilers away however, are there multiple endings? Do any of them result in complete failure?

[sedrikhcain]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So what's the point of the "big choices"? Either way you win just by clicking your mouse on something.

BioWare should make victory in ME3 impossible for certain combination of choices from ME1&2, and nearly impossible for some other combination. And easy for some combinations. On average, "canon" if you wish, combination prescribed for "Create new ME3 character" start it must be possible, of course. But having a Rachni queen smiling under "The End" sign or not having it there as "the consequence" is no fun. At all.

It would be a bold business decision, but if taken it will truly make Mass Effect a groundbreaking franchise.

Most people have several characters with different paths anyway. Those who don't (like me) are putting much thinking in their decision making (with or without meta-gaming). Some people keep their very first playthroughs of ME1 and ME2 to see the consequenses of their choices made at the time even unconsious metagaming was not possible. As I said, it ought to be a combination of choices, not some single choice. But if there is such a "terminator combination", it makes gameplay far more thrilling and immersive.

I repeat, I have only a single story of *my* Shepard and indulge in thinking that my choices are "the best". Of course I'll be dissapointed if it turns out they are the single worst possible combination, and the Reapers eat *my* Galaxy in the end, but that's a risk I am willing to take as a player and BioWare customer.

Seriously, I can't see how screwing over 0.1% minus of all ME players will make it a problem for BioWare (they seem to have screwed over a lot more with the shooter-RPG gameplay shift). It will only make their future trademarks more spicy. Because the amount of thrill of playing any next "trilogy" they anounce will grow tenfold.

I think what you want is going too far. You want them to put choices in ME1 that will make ME2 a frustrating experience and ME3 impossible. That would be silly. You're already seeing how decisions in ME1 have affected the world around you one way or the other without shutting down your gameplay experience or forcing you to go all the way back and play the previous game through again to be able to beat the game. Now, for the third part of the series, they can be a bit more daring, because it is the final chapter. They have already said choices in ME2 will have "dire consequences" in ME3, so I would expect the game to change in 1 or 2 major ways based on things like salvaging/destroying the collector base, etc. If they don't, then I think you have a gripe. But what you're suggesting is that they construct the whole series as some sort of code you have to figure out in your choices that allow you to save the galaxy. A whole lot of gamers -- myself included -- would get awfull PO'd if we had to continuously play all the way through over and over again to find the right combination of decisions going all the way back to the Eden Prime that would allow us to achieve victory in the end. I think that's the kind of thing that would make me feel unforgiveably manipulated.

[DarthCaine]

Oawa wrote...

I tried playing The Witcher, just couldn't get passed the combat.  That was what...2-3 years ago tho? I read they tried to improve it, maybe I'll give it a shot.

Without giving spoilers away however, are there multiple endings? Do any of them result in complete failure?

There are multiple endings and some choices completely change the final chapter. None of them results in failure, but all of them have both good and bad consequences.

Unlike BioWare games where the biggest choice is made at the end of the game and there's only one single different cutscene that has zero impact on the game, in The Witcher the choices happen earlier

In each chapter there's a big choice, and that choice affects other chapters. For example Chapter 1 affects Chapter 4, Chapter 3 affects Chapters 4 and 5.

It's about the lenght of DAO. It's also a much darker and mature game than DAO

Just a note, if you think there's a "right" choice, you'd be wrong. Unlike BioWare games where good choices==good consequences, in The Witcher you need to choose "the lesser evil" and there's good AND bad consequences for every choice you make

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 03:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Littledoom wrote...
Ah yes, "Wrex". We have dismissed his importance.

Same here. Wrex's fate is not that big a deal. Wrex is just one individual. A bounty hunter. Like Zaeed Massani, only a krogan and 1000 years more ancient. That said, he's got a hell of an impact if survived Virmire, as I heard. BTW, in *my* canon, *my* Shepard talked to him only once and nobody heard of Urdnot Wrex since.

BIG CHOICES are the ones that affect:

Tier 1 - entire Galaxy
   Council choice
   C-Base choice

Tier 2 - a single species
   Rachni Queen choice
   Geth Heretics choice
   Tali's trial: advice about Geth war
   Genophage data choice

Tier 3 - factions within one species, inter-species relations
   Terra Firma choice
   Elias Keeler choice
   Tali's trial: evidence choice
   Wrex choice
   Human Councillor choice
   Kolyat's target choice
   Cerberus data choice

That's about all. And that's a freaking lot!

The choices, that concern only a single character, however much you may love them, are not that Big.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

players who did not play ME 1 or 2 should NOT EVEN try ME 3, because IF Bioware sticks to thier promises, players who start a new ME 3 character will spend with this game maybe 4 hours to witness a total annihilation of the Galaxy by Reapers.

This is an excellent statement, sir!
(forgive my editing it for spelling)

[The Angry One]

A nice thought, but remember who owns BioWare.

EA thinks only of the bottom line, and to that end they will force BioWare to make ME3 accessable to people who have never played ME1 or 2.



Good idea, never going to happen.

[DarthCaine]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

players who did not play ME 1 or 2 should NOT EVEN try ME 3, because IF Bioware sticks to thier promises, players who start a new ME 3 character will spend with this game maybe 4 hours to witness a total annihilation of the Galaxy by Reapers.

When have they ever sticked to their promises?

Remember all the BS they said about Jade Empire? How it will be a really big game and better than KOTOR?

Or all the stuff how NWN will be better than BG?

Remember how they said ME1 choices will greatly impact ME2 and that almost every choice carries over?

For ME1 it was the worst.
They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world and that you could change the appearance of your weapons and that you can play as a squad mate like in KOTOR (play as Wrex!)
( & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBuhcKKWohk&feature=related)

There's 3 rules I learned a long time ago about BioWare:
1. They make great stories with lots of choices
2. There's ALWAYS little to no consequences
3. They ALWAYS overhype their games and say stuff that isn't in the game

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

The choices should have impact. I haven't seen that really. Even if Wrex dies there is some other guy you get the same mission interactions from. No surprises there. The rachni queen? This time in ME2 a messenger sends you her love and the promise of aid in the future. I expect in ME3 a mail from the queen like: "Thanks again for saving my life. I have a cold right now. Can't make it. Sorry."

[Pandaman102]

DarthCaine wrote...

They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world and that you could change the appearance of your weapons
( & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBuhcKKWohk&feature=related)

Edit: whoops, missed the second link, watching now...
Edit #2: Yeah, okay, watched both videos and nowhere does it make any of the claims you put up. Closest there is the customization of weapon powers, which they did have.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 27 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[Beholderess]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The whole point of this series is there is no one right way. Paragon or Renegade, you still stop Saren; you still stop the Collectors. The way it works is by rewarding you with unique gameplay moments; Wrex grabbing your arm, or meeting Parasinni on Illium.

Should there be consequence? Absolutely; lets have that rachni fleet, or that krogan army. But the absence of those elements cannot, and should not, make ME3 unwinnable. To do so would not only invalidate millions of playthroughs; it would not only make the story less fun to play through;  it would invalidate the personal nature of decision making in the Mass Effect canon. If people knew that killing the rachni would lose you ME3, no one would kill them; if people knew that saving the Council would make it harder to unite the galaxy against the Reapers, no one would save them. It is, in RPG terms, railroading; forcing a player to do certain story related actions, or lose. That's not what Mass Effect is about.

At the end of ME3, you will have stopped the Reapers. The most interesting thing will not be that you did so, but HOW.

My thoughts exactly

[Mox Ruuga]

DarthCaine wrote...

There's 3 rules I learned a long time ago about BioWare:
1. They make great stories with lots of choices
2. There's ALWAYS little to no consequences
3. They ALWAYS overhype their games and say stuff that isn't in the game

This needs to be pasted into threads again and again when the hype starts gearing up for ME3. Along with links to a certain Public Enemy song on Youtube...

Although the "great story" bit is very debatable when it comes to ME2...

[Zulu_DFA]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So what's the point of the "big choices"? Either way you win just by clicking your mouse on something.

...
...

Seriously, I can't see how screwing over 0.1% minus of all ME players will make it a problem for BioWare (they seem to have screwed over a lot more with the shooter-RPG gameplay shift). It will only make their future trademarks more spicy. Because the amount of thrill of playing any next "trilogy" they anounce will grow tenfold.

I think what you want is going too far. You want them to put choices in ME1 that will make ME2 a frustrating experience and ME3 impossible. That would be silly.

ME2 is out and it's not frustrating (EDIT: Oh, it is to me, but it's nothing to do with how to beat the game as it is). What I want is that ME3 be made a possibly frustrating experience to a small portion of people (like me) who didn't care to have multiple stories (paragon ruthless male soldier, renegon sole survivor femshep vanguard, spacer gay moron, etc) and have just one. And unwinnable if one accidentally screwed over every important decision. Like in the "suicide mission".
This is not silly.

You're already seeing how decisions in ME1 have affected the world around you one way or the other without shutting down your gameplay experience or forcing you to go all the way back and play the previous game through again to be able to beat the game. Now, for the third part of the series, they can be a bit more daring, because it is the final chapter. They have already said choices in ME2 will have "dire consequences" in ME3, so I would expect the game to change in 1 or 2 major ways based on things like salvaging/destroying the collector base, etc. If they don't, then I think you have a gripe. But what you're suggesting is that they construct the whole series as some sort of code you have to figure out in your choices that allow you to save the galaxy. A whole lot of gamers -- myself included -- would get awfull PO'd if we had to continuously play all the way through over and over again to find the right combination of decisions going all the way back to the Eden Prime that would allow us to achieve victory in the end.

Of course it's a game, and I am in no mood myself to have it turned into a 3-part 120-hour IQ test. Victory (destroying the Reapers) must be easy enough to provide customer with fun, not frustration. But if you want to have a galaxy of your dream (with roses and kissing krogan couples at every corner, or, on the contrary, a smoldering desert with Geth Collective running concentration camps for organics with Cyborg Shepard in charge of the universe), you may have to go back to Eden Prime and reconsider whehter you should punch Manuel, or not.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[DarthCaine]

Pandaman102 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world and that you could change the appearance of your weapons
( & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBuhcKKWohk&feature=related)

You linked the wrong video, it made none of those promises you stated...

What are you talking about, watch them again
See the interrupt for Garrus? (back then it wasn't like in ME2)
See the destructable enviroment?
Casey says that you can upgrade your weapons and even change their looks
And also, check out that you could play as Garrus/Ashley

The customizable MAKO and that you could leave your armor covered with blood or make it shine is in very old articles

Modifié par DarthCaine, 27 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[Beholderess]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

players who did not play ME 1 or 2 should NOT EVEN try ME 3, because IF Bioware sticks to thier promises, players who start a new ME 3 character will spend with this game maybe 4 hours to witness a total annihilation of the Galaxy by Reapers.

This is an excellent statement, sir!
(forgive my editing it for spelling)

And why shouldn't any game be able to played even by people who didn't play previos games? It is not exactly uncommon to play games out of order, you know?
For example, I've played BG2 before BG itself...
Lol, actually, I wish there was a possibility to pick up one's choices for ME1 on the start of ME2. Sure, the concequences from ME1 only add flavour, but flavour is very important for some people (myself included=). Of course, it is possible to use someone else's saves, but still...

[Asheer_Khan]

I really don't see any possibility for ME 3 to become more or less stand alone game because this would actually kill whole series.



I see now that Bioware made grave mistake starting two giant projects in this same time: Mass Effect series and SWToR MMO which steal from ME core of story writers whil ME 1 lead witer in first place.

In my opinion Bioware should FIRST finish ME series and then divert all focus on MMO.



For now i will monitoring very carefully any news about ME 3.

[Beholderess]

LostScout wrote...

If you give the players a series of arbitrary "choices", but there is only one correct "choice" then you haven't given any choices at all. The only thing you have done is give them a game with a test to see if they can guess which "choice" the designers envisioned as a correct choice. The idea doesn't really appeal to me.

So true

[Pandaman102]

DarthCaine wrote...

What are you talking about, watch them again
See the interrupt for Garrus? (back then it wasn't like in ME2)
See the destructable enviroment?
Casey says that you can upgrade your weapons and even change their looks
And also, check out that you could play as Garrus/Ashley

The customizable MAKO and that you could leave your armor covered with blood or make it shine is in very old articles

Ah, I was listening for statements, not paying close attention to what was happening in the video itself. Sorry 'bout that. To be fair it is the gameplay video of a beta build, usually quality only improve from that point but it's not unheard of for features to be stripped out to lower system requirements. Being someone who played with just-barely min spec I'm rather glad they did.

LostScout wrote...

If you give the players a series of arbitrary "choices", but there is only one correct "choice" then you haven't given any choices at all. The only thing you have done is give them a game with a test to see if they can guess which "choice" the designers envisioned as a correct choice. The idea doesn't really appeal to me.

Isn't that what the whole concept of having consequences is? Which is more arbitrary: being given choices that inevitably leads to the same ending regardless of what you do or being given choices and possibly losing because you made bad ones?

Modifié par Pandaman102, 27 février 2010 - 04:03 .

[ratzerman]

The Angry One wrote...
EA thinks only of the bottom line, and to that end they will force BioWare to make ME3 accessable to people who have never played ME1 or 2..

QFT

[Mox Ruuga]

Back in August, The Great and Powerful Hudson had this to say about choices in ME1 and their consequences in ME2:

IGN: If you had to pick three decisions from the first Mass Effect that most affect the story in the sequel, what would they be?

Casey Hudson: For those who haven't played Mass Effect, I should mention that (a) there are some spoilers ahead, and ( you really should play Mass Effect. I'd say the top 3 decisions are probably the choice of who lives and dies in the nuclear explosion on Virmire, who you had a romance with (if any), and whether you allowed the Galactic Council to die during the final battle. These things naturally cause some of the longer-lasting effects on your story as Commander Shepard. Another interesting aspect is that the sum of your decisions – your renegade / paragon status – also has an immediate and profound effect that we can't explain without giving away some of the story.

Underlines inserted by me, for emphasis.

Link:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1014425p1.html

[Zulu_DFA]

ratzerman wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
EA thinks only of the bottom line, and to that end they will force BioWare to make ME3 accessable to people who have never played ME1 or 2..

QFT

This only proves, that a default combination o choices "imported" by BioWare for the "New ME3 character" will be an average one. We, who played both ME1&2 should FEEL IT [/Harbinger mode off]... have benefits/penalties (aka actual consequences) of our choices made back there. Not just some cute "You humans are all racists!" comments from a noname00.npc.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[Pandaman102]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Back in August, The Great and Powerful Hudson had this to say about choices in ME1 and their consequences in ME2:

IGN: If you had to pick three decisions from the first Mass Effect that most affect the story in the sequel, what would they be?

Casey Hudson: For those who haven't played Mass Effect, I should mention that (a) there are some spoilers ahead, and ( you really should play Mass Effect. I'd say the top 3 decisions are probably the choice of who lives and dies in the nuclear explosion on Virmire, who you had a romance with (if any), and whether you allowed the Galactic Council to die during the final battle. These things naturally cause some of the longer-lasting effects on your story as Commander Shepard. Another interesting aspect is that the sum of your decisions – your renegade / paragon status – also has an immediate and profound effect that we can't explain without giving away some of the story.

Underlines inserted by me, for emphasis.

Link:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1014425p1.html

Mass Effect 3 is a sequel to Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 1, you realize.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 27 février 2010 - 04:08 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Heh, the "You humans are all racist" turian is there even if you saved the council. The same goes for the asari who ended up on the "no fly" list as geth suspects due to new human paranoia and bureaucracy.