206 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

HOW IT CAN WORK

Mass Effect = Shepard vs. Reapers

Coexistence prohibited.
Three possible outcomes:

1. Shepard wins, Reapers die. Galaxy saved. Commander Shepard asked to arrange the new order (become a President).

2. Shepard dies, Reapers die. Galaxy saved, but lies in ashes. Depending on the choices there is more or less ashes and TIM/Udina/Anderson/TurianCouncillor/RachniQueen/UrndotWrex/Legion becomes an Emperor.

3. Shepard dies, Reapers win. Galaxy eaten.


Now back to the Choices.

BIG CHOICES

Tier 1 - entire Galaxy
   Council choice
   C-Base choice

Tier 2 - a single species
   Rachni Queen choice
   Geth Heretics choice
   Tali's trial: advice about Geth war
   Genophage data choice

Tier 3 - factions within one species, inter-species relations
   Terra Firma choice
   Elias Keeler choice
   Tali's trial: evidence choice
   Wrex choice (Virmire)
   Human Councillor choice
   Kolyat's target choice
   Cerberus data choice - lost operative
   Cerberus data choice - Shadow Broker
   BDTS choices

Note: the choices, that concern only a single character without position of power in ME universe, however much you may love them, are not that Big (this includes Ashley/Kaidan choice, LI choices, "suicide mission" fatalities).

Each Tier 1 & 2 choice (having a simple -- arbitrary, but hopefully respectful of common sense -- BioWare's explanation in the Epilogue) adds or subtracts a certain amount of Victory Points with Tier 3 choices working as modifiers to that amount.

Or, more interestingly, only Tier 1 choices matter Victory-wise with substantial Tier 3 modifiers, while Tier 2 choices are important only Epilogue-wise determining which species rises to power in the most probable outcome #2.

A new ME1 Shepard starts with 50 Victory Points. Default choices for new ME2 & ME3 Shepards equal 50 VPs as well. If the player accumulates 100 (or more) VPs by the Grand Final Battle, the outcome #1 ensues. If the total victory score drops to (or below) 0, outcome #3 happens, Game Over. No Galaxy to import to whatever the next game BioWare stages in ME universe.

This system is not difficult to implement in the game, especially with their experience of making the ME2 "suicide mission" work. All it takes is to carefully calculate numbers to make outcome #3 unlikely and outcome #1 a challenge. A couple of "Big choices" (25 VP) should be included in ME3 to allow newbies too run for president or ditch the Galaxy. And easily correct the situation for those who screwed too much in ME1 & ME2, and are deep in sh*t the minus by the start of ME3 (but not achieve the best possible result = live with the consequences).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 février 2010 - 11:18 .

[Goneinaflash]

Today I was thinking about these "big choices" when finishing up ME2. It probably doesn't matter who makes it out alive in the SM. Bioware will probably just give us a new squad. Then the ones that survived will make little cameos. Because some people will have all the squad mates survive, then some will only have a few. Bioware would have to make 2 games in one!! I don't see that happening...

I love Mass Effect 2 but I think the choices won't have a huge impact on ME3. A few lines of dialogue don't count. It'll probably come down to an endgame cutscene. It would be cool if your choices made the game play out extremely different. Like whole new areas and missions! But like someone said, Bioware isn't going to add huge chunks of gameplay that the player might never see. Anyways...those are my feelings on the matter! I still love the game and can't wait for ME3!

Edit: Hopefully I'm wrong and Bioware make ME3 play out in completely different ways! (I'm talking different missions depending on your choices, not just cutscenes) 

Modifié par Goneinaflash, 27 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[redguppie]

it depends on how linear they choose to make the actual storyline of ME3. The more imact each choice makes the more it can diverge from a given end. Since they no longer have to wrry about another game and the decisions here effecting that outcome they have more freedom to branch out, but I doubt real life constraints(disk space, time, budget, etc.) will allow them to push gve a truly unique experience.

My guess is several smaller decisions will have a bigger impact than they shoulld while the bigger choices have less impact than we want.  Given the fact that we have only seen the first two parts though it is still to early to be declaring our choices have no true impact.

Modifié par redguppie, 27 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[Big I]

Alneverus wrote...

One example of a choice that should have had a greater importance to some aspect of Gameplay would have been the body issue in ME1. The player had two choices; either get it released or keep it for study to find better ways to protect against Geth type weapons. When this is imported over into ME2 you either get an e-mail from the guy if you returned it or you simply get nothing... What happened to the research? Why not allow for something of this nature to provide further upgrade of personal armor? It wouldn't be fair?

There is an in story consequence to releasing the body; Samesh e-mails you, saying how it helped him make peace with his wifes' death, and there is a news report saying that the Alliance is finding it harder to recruit people because the public doesn't think the Alliance can match Geth technology. If you don't release the body and convince Samesh to let it slide, you receive neither the e-mail or the news story. I thought it was well done.

[Zulu_DFA]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Alneverus wrote...

One example of a choice that should have had a greater importance to some aspect of Gameplay would have been the body issue in ME1. The player had two choices; either get it released or keep it for study to find better ways to protect against Geth type weapons. When this is imported over into ME2 you either get an e-mail from the guy if you returned it or you simply get nothing... What happened to the research? Why not allow for something of this nature to provide further upgrade of personal armor? It wouldn't be fair?

There is an in story consequence to releasing the body; Samesh e-mails you, saying how it helped him make peace with his wifes' death, and there is a news report saying that the Alliance is finding it harder to recruit people because the public doesn't think the Alliance can match Geth technology. If you don't release the body and convince Samesh to let it slide, you receive neither the e-mail or the news story. I thought it was well done.

Cool, choices matter. But it's just all M&Ms candy. And we are talking dinner here.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Oops...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[Big I]

danielassault wrote...

I agree with what you are saying. All the choices I made in ME1 didn't have any major effect in ME2. Nothing.
Why not create, for example, specific quests for certain things you have done? The consequences of your action in ME1 aren't game or story changing in ME2.

They did that, with Gianna, Conrad, and Shiala, and I completely disagree about the story. Meeting the Rachni emisarry, and having the Council re-instate you based on your personal relationship with them, or the conversation with Nassana if you killed her sister, all change how the story progresses. It's in-game content that someone who hasn't played ME won't experience.

[ZennExile]

If you get a big enough bag of m&ms...?

Really though ME2 choices aren't tangeble. This game was designed "with stupid people in mind" (yeah a poet). There are no complex decisions to make. You've got "be a douche" or "be a dick" and if you have enough douche or dick points you can be an "uber douche" or a "righteous dick". That's pretty much it.

Even the choices that determine whether you and your team lives or dies, are so transparent a blind ferret on fire could pick the "winner". They didn't even make you sacrifice anyone. You can save everyone in the game and circumvent having to make any "big decisions" at all. And even that choice boils down to "suffer through tedium" or "hurry up and win".

[Goneinaflash]

Hopefully me selling Legion has real consequences in ME3! I know a lot of people like him but I felt uncomfortable with a Geth on my ship. Call me racist (against Geth) but all Geth creep me out...Maybe it has something to do with most of them trying to kill me.

Modifié par Goneinaflash, 27 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Goneinaflash]

Double post sorry! 

Modifié par Goneinaflash, 27 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

ZennExile wrote...

If you get a big enough bag of m&ms...?

I'll puke.
Which I almost did, when rushed to my private terminal only to read the twentieth "Thank you" e-mail.
I'm saving the Galaxy here! Like I care what some Finch-guy thinks of it!

ZennExile wrote...
They didn't even make you sacrifice anyone. You can save everyone in the game ...

Yeah, so much for the "suicide mission". Banter it is.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 11:15 .

[Big I]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

There is an in story consequence to releasing the body; Samesh e-mails you, saying how it helped him make peace with his wifes' death, and there is a news report saying that the Alliance is finding it harder to recruit people because the public doesn't think the Alliance can match Geth technology. If you don't release the body and convince Samesh to let it slide, you receive neither the e-mail or the news story. I thought it was well done.

Cool, choices matter. But it's just all M&Ms candy. And we are talking dinner here.

That's the sort of reactivity I was expecting, because the main story in both games is essentially unchanged by your choices; you're still stopping Saren and then the Collectors. Thus, the main story is always going to remain the same, and should, because it involves forces outside your control, the actions of the Reapers and their agents. It's not like you can stop Saren from going rogue. For your other choices, I think the pay-off is quite satisfactory.

Let's take the Bhatia mission; it's a 5 minute side quest that helps you personalise your playthrough, which also has story consequences for ME2, and maybe ME3 with the recruitment thing. The same could be said of saving the Rachni, or saving Feros, or helping Garrus take out Doctor Heart. Again, I think it was well done.

[ZennExile]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

If you get a big enough bag of m&ms...?

I'll puke, Which I almost did, when rushed to my private terminal only to read the twentieth "Thank you" e-mail. I'm saving the Galaxy! Like I care what some Finch-guy thinks of it!

ZennExile wrote...
They didn't even make you sacrifice anyone. You can save everyone in the game ...

Yeah, so much for the "suicide mission". Banter it is.

Yeah the funny spam emails were ok, but the thank you spam was kinda stupid.  They should used the message system for something substantial or just dumped it altogether and had kelly relay messages to you directly.. in your quarters, hanging from a stripper pole...

[Zulu_DFA]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

There is an in story consequence to releasing the body; Samesh e-mails you, saying how it helped him make peace with his wifes' death, and there is a news report saying that the Alliance is finding it harder to recruit people because the public doesn't think the Alliance can match Geth technology. If you don't release the body and convince Samesh to let it slide, you receive neither the e-mail or the news story. I thought it was well done.

Cool, choices matter. But it's just all M&Ms candy. And we are talking dinner here.

That's the sort of reactivity I was expecting, because the main story in both games is essentially unchanged by your choices; you're still stopping Saren and then the Collectors. Thus, the main story is always going to remain the same, and should, because it involves forces outside your control, the actions of the Reapers and their agents. It's not like you can stop Saren from going rogue. For your other choices, I think the pay-off is quite satisfactory.

Let's take the Bhatia mission; it's a 5 minute side quest that helps you personalise your playthrough, which also has story consequences for ME2, and maybe ME3 with the recruitment thing. The same could be said of saving the Rachni, or saving Feros, or helping Garrus take out Doctor Heart. Again, I think it was well done.

I am not so sure. Galaxy felt a very tight place for *my* Shepard, who killed many NPCs and helped few in ME1. But I am not complaining about that. I wonder what will the end of ME3 be, and will there be any meaningful impact of the "big choices". Will there be a retribution?

[mopotter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

mopotter wrote...

...paragon or renegade (really wish there were other names for these two viewpoints) ...

Paragon = tranquil
Renegade = frantic

 I like frantic or maybe pragmatic.
I think I like honorable better than tranquil.  Tranquil makes me think of DA with no emotions.  Both of my Shepards have deep emotions. 

It's basically explained in the Dr. Chackwas's e-mail about the facial scars, which I take as BioWare's official explanation for the paragon/renegade system.

"Pragmatic" definitely has nothing to do with certain Renegade answers/interrupts.  Like punching people in the face, or pushing a guy out of the window. If you absolutely must kill a man, you do it by shooting him in the head.

"Honorable" is closer to Paragon, yet remember, that there are a lot of "codes of honor", sometimes mutually exclusive. Samara's Code, for example, absolutely prohibits her from sparing a life under certain circumstances, making her choose "renegade interrupts" way more often, than a pragmatic Shepard (who would like to interrogate a prisoner before deciding on wether to kill him of not.)

Paragon/renegade is not a morality system. It's an emotions system.

I can see that and I have to admit I perfer you explanation more than what I had come up with.

I once made the mistqake of looking up the words (because I was taught to spell it like it sounds and then missed the part where they teach you how to spell all the other words)  saw the definition for renegade included someone disloyal, with synonyms of deserter, turncoat and rebel and paragon included perfection and saint.
:happy: I don't see my Sheapard as any of those.  Well maybe rebel.  Definately not a saint.  So thanks.  I'll use your "definations" and continue in my emotional plays where I actually use both, but mostly the paragon responses.

[glasgoo21]

Very good thread

[Zulu_DFA]

glasgoo21 wrote...

Very good thread

Indeed...  /Lorik Qi'in voice

[smecky-kitteh]

The only choices from ME2 I think should carry on is:

Wether or not you salveged the collecter base

Who servived the suicide mission

You actions on you squads loyalty missions.

I don't think you should have to play ME1&2 to play MA3. Maybe they can start you of with a default story or somthing.

[huntrrz]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Heh, the "You humans are all racist" turian is there even if you saved the council. The same goes for the asari who ended up on the "no fly" list as geth suspects due to new human paranoia and bureaucracy.

I would not be surprised if the old Council is playing a political game - the new regulations are THEIR idea, knowing they will anger the public and leave humans as the obvious target of their displeasure.  They are the consummate political opportunists.

[huntrrz]

It would be nice if sometime in the future they released a 'setup editor' that allowed you to change these parameters and see how the game plays out. (I know the modders have released one for ME2 on the PC.) If it was put out after a suitable period after the third game, it would improve replayability without spoiling the plot points.



Or maybe a separate product allowing people to step through the plot, exploring the variations... Hmm... It would be an interesting exercise in interactive entertainment, but I don't know what sales would be like...

[Zulu_DFA]

huntrrz wrote...

It would be nice if sometime in the future they released a 'setup editor' that allowed you to change these parameters and see how the game plays out. (I know the modders have released one for ME2 on the PC.) If it was put out after a suitable period after the third game, it would improve replayability without spoiling the plot points.

Or maybe a separate product allowing people to step through the plot, exploring the variations... Hmm... It would be an interesting exercise in interactive entertainment, but I don't know what sales would be like...

Interesting idea. That would be really great to have such a tool officially released by BioWare, say, 10 mothts after ME3. Something like "Choice editor", which would allow players to reset every choice from ME1&2 at the start of ME3. I'd even pay several bucks for it.

Again it will make sense only if those choices really affect the outcome of the game, not just cosmetically change a few cutscenes and lines in the Epilogue.

[Alamar2078]

We may end up having to settle for "dramatic differences" in the epilogue and just live with that. I certainly want more but I'm not sure how much will be delivered.



Either way you need to "win" the game with the default choices of the starter characters in ME2 or ME 3. Not just that but nearly all possible endings need to be possible to folks that played ME1 or started later with either ME2 or ME3. If that's the case then your ME1 choices just add flavor instead of "really mattering".

[Zulu_DFA]

Alamar2078 wrote...

We may end up having to settle for "dramatic differences" in the epilogue and just live with that. I certainly want more but I'm not sure how much will be delivered.

Either way you need to "win" the game with the default choices of the starter characters in ME2 or ME 3. Not just that but nearly all possible endings need to be possible to folks that played ME1 or started later with either ME2 or ME3. If that's the case then your ME1 choices just add flavor instead of "really mattering".

Have you read the topic? The score system would allow ME3 newbies to have all possible oucomes, but it will be harder for them to achieve extreme ones (total victory or utter fail), which is kinda "fair" to both ME veterans and newbies.

[JMKnave]

So what your proposing is that anyone who has not bought and played ME1 and ME2 must always lose in ME3 because they never made the correct choices?

Sounds like a great way to get people to pay $50-60 and make them very angry at you.

The idea is interesting on paper but there is no way to make that work in the gaming industry. Noone will buy and play a game if they cannot beat it.

You can perhaps make it more challenging to beat the game but you cannot outright deny players a particular ending because they did not purchase a previous product from you. The same can be said for ME2. BW could not outright deny people a way to finish the game if they had not previously played through ME1. So they changed a few things and allowed new players to the ME experience a way to play the game. There is certainly a lot of dialog, scenes, NPCs, discounts, etc. left out that you wont be able to experience if you have not imported ME1 but you can still enjoy the game on its own merits. And it's a great way to reward loyal players who've played previous iterations.

They will do the same in ME3 and I cannot fault them for that. Enjoy the extras that you have available because of the imports and rest easy in the knowledge that the game you experience will not be the same one others experience. It's not about "Big" choices, it's about choice in general. Every choice you make affects the game you experience.

Modifié par JMKnave, 01 mars 2010 - 03:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

JMKnave wrote...

So what your proposing is that anyone who has not bought and played ME1 and ME2 must always lose in ME3 because they never made the correct choices?

Sounds like a great way to get people to pay $50-60 and make them very angry at you.

The idea is interesting on paper but there is no way to make that work in the gaming industry. Noone will buy and play a game if they cannot beat it.

Go to Page 1 and read the topic thoroughly. I am proposing, that ME3 newbies have exacly the same chances to beat the game (stop the Reapers) as the ME1 newbies. They have lower chances though (but it's still possible) to get either of the extreme outcomes.

ME1&2 veterans at the start of ME3 will have been brought by their own (!) choices closer either to the best outcome, or to the worst one. Or both, if they have several careers to import with different choice-paths. Even if they have been pretty much screwed with their favorite Shepards, they will still be able to correct things when it comes closer to the end by making the right choice at the last opportunity.

You can perhaps make it more challenging to beat the game but you cannot outright deny players a particular ending because they did not purchase a previous product from you. The same can be said for ME2. BW could not outright deny people a way to finish the game if they had not previously played through ME1. So they changed a few things and allowed new players to the ME experience a way to play the game. There is certainly a lot of dialog, scenes, NPCs, discounts, etc. left out that you wont be able to experience if you have not imported ME1 but you can still enjoy the game on its own merits. And it's a great way to reward loyal players who've played previous iterations.

ME2 is the "middle part". No way something big kicks in the middle. The Grand Finale is expected in ME3.
It wasn't swell to get all those petty "Thank you!" e-mails that signaled the choices from ME1 had been carried over. But I am OK with that, as I wasn't expecting anything bigger in ME2. But in ME3 I expect some real biting in the arse.

BTW, many people point out, like you, the disadvantage for the ME3 newbies. But they are hilariously defensive when it comes to Garrus & Tali. Being told, that the newbies will lack a certain perspective into these characters, they say: screw the newbies.

They will do the same in ME3 and I cannot fault them for that. Enjoy the extras that you have available because of the imports and rest easy in the knowledge that the game you experience will not be the same one others experience. It's not about "Big" choices, it's about choice in general. Every choice you make affects the game you experience

This favors paragons better then renegades, haven't you noticed? Besides, what's the big deal?

We got a lot of M&M's candy in ME2. In ME3 I want dinner. With steak.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 mars 2010 - 04:28 .