766 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Ok. I'm a rabid Zevran fan-girl, and I am getting very tired of having to defend him to the homophobics and the one's who can't see their own thoughts in front of their eyes.

Leliana is a bard. She grew up in a wealthy household. She was never tortured or abused. She was not a slave her entire life. She choose to become a bard, and would do any- and everything to please the woman she loved.

She is very enthusiastic about her chosen life-style. She describes how she loved the 'hunt', the 'seduction' and the 'killing' of men.

She lived that way because she chose it. Not because she was a slave. Not because she had no other choice. She lies to the PC from the beginning on. No one forced her into anything. She fell for a woman, and did anything to please her. Unlike Zevran, she describes torture as being a factor.

After meeting Majorlaine, she describes how much she loved her life-style. Unlike Zevran, who reveals that he regrets many things, she practically gushes about her joy about being a bard. Why is it forgiveable to her, but Zevran gets condemned? I really would like some input here, thank you.

March 4th; Addendum:
This thread was in answer to another one. It is not meant to incite anything but a discussion compairing and contrasting the two toons. It became heated precisely because people took offense that it came on the heel of a similar thread concerning Zevran, but if you read on further ahead, you will see that it is indeed now (mostly, bar a few real trolls and flame-baiters) what it was supposed to be: a calm, level-headed comparison. Again, my words were not meant to incite, but to spark discussion.

Modifié par Sabriana, 04 mars 2010 - 08:31 .

[Maria Caliban]

Let me understand, you don't like defending Zevran, so you're going to attack Leliana? That makes no sense. "I hate it when people are mean to puppies, so I'm going to set a cat on fire!"

Anyways, enjoy your trolling.

[Sabriana]

Oh? I have to accept the justification of one, but I am prohibited to ask for the justification of another? Does that not sound strange to you?

Just because you are an ardent Leliana fan, does not prohibit me from asking why, does it now?

[brain_damage]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Let me understand, you don't like defending Zevran, so you're going to attack Leliana? That makes no sense. "I hate it when people are mean to puppies, so I'm going to set a cat on fire!"
Anyways, enjoy your trolling.

Eloquently put. You get a cookie.
Go back under your bridge, troll. No cookies for you.

[joey_mork84]

I'm not defending either one.. Leliana lied to the PC, yes, however, Zevran tried to kill the PC. I don't know about you, but IMO killing is quite a bit worse than lying.. But that's just me.

[Helios969]

 Belongs in the Zevran forum.  Every argument that can be made for and against Zev and Leli have been made.  Let's not start a whole new thread for the same old argument.

[ejoslin]

Seeing how similar Leliana and Zevran's lives were, it actually is very justified. The major difference is one was a slave the other a willing participant!

*grin*

Edit: I think Leliana is awesome enough that she deserves her own thread!

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[Sabriana]

Get out of my topic if you have nothing to contribute. I am asking for people to legitimise their preferrence for a woman who's past included the torture, seduction, and murdering of people. If you cannot think of any response, please refrain of straying into my thread.

This post was aimed at brain_damag. How perfectly apt, if I might say so myself.

Modifié par Sabriana, 26 février 2010 - 07:34 .

[krylo]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, she craaaaaaaaaazy.



Seriously, though, I think both threads miss the mark. You aren't supposed to justify any of the absolutely terrible **** either of them did in their past. You're supposed to redeem them as new people through the game.

[Sabriana]

Agreed, Krylo. But I am wondering why people think that Leliana is such a sweet, innocent, girly girl, when she is quite capable of hunting, torture (which Zevran never did), seduction and killing.

[PunkNouveau13]

Why even feel the need to defend a VIDEO GAME character?! I really don't think they'll be sending you a thank you letter for your efforts. :-p

Modifié par PunkNouveau13, 26 février 2010 - 07:38 .

[krylo]

Sabriana wrote...

Agreed, Krylo. But I am wondering why people think that Leliana is such a sweet, innocent, girly girl, when she is quite capable of hunting, torture (which Zevran never did), seduction and killing.

Because she pretends to be very very convincingly while Zevran never does.

[Cutlass Jack]

As far as Justifications of Zevran or Leliana are concerned....well only one of them tried to kill me before asking to join. The other one tried to stop someone from killing me.

[Helios969]

It's a sad commentary that some people are so obsessed and infatuated with the nonexistent fictional character to geniunely get upset because one person prefers one killer over the other.



Well it's no real secret that some people will be attracted to a woman over a man, or a man over a woman based on their sexual preferences. Why does it need to be more than that?

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

It's a sad commentary that some people are so obsessed and infatuated with the nonexistent fictional character to geniunely get upset because one person prefers one killer over the other.

Well it's no real secret that some people will be attracted to a woman over a man, or a man over a woman based on their sexual preferences. Why does it need to be more than that?

If we just all agreed to disagree then I'd have nothing to do and would have to get some sleep.

[ejoslin]

Well, not to paint too fine a line, but he actually tried to kill himself. An "ambush" where one of the "legendary grey wardens" is warned ahead of time that there's an attack going on? *grin* Even if you never get to him admitting that he was trying to kill himself, it's pretty apparent that the attack was designed to fail.

[Sabriana]

One's a slave, the other one is not. Both offer to join your cause. One has a 'vision' the other one gives you logical reasons. Both will turn on you given the right situation. One will turn on you no matter what your approval is, the other one will never turn on you if the approval is high enough (and can be achieved without ever turning on the romance).

[joey_mork84]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

As far as Justifications of Zevran or Leliana are concerned....well only one of them tried to kill me before asking to join. The other one tried to stop someone from killing me.

EXACTLY!

[krylo]

I'm just going to post this little morsel over here from the other thread:

krylo wrote...

I'd also suggest that because Leliana, to the best of our knowledge, doesn't have sex with someone under duress, but rather seduces them the old fashion way and then kills them--the OP probably wouldn't see it in the same light.

I know I don't.

If Zevran had flirted his marks up and then killed them during/right after sex through normal seduction, this thread probably wouldn't exist. It was Zev's comment about a woman on her knees begging for her life with his dick in her mouth that sparked the issue.

It's only tangentially related in that this thread is busy talking about the actual murdering they both did and not the other terrible things for the most part. However, this thread is pretty clearly a reaction to that one, so I feel that bringing up the 'sexual abuse' spin from that thread in this one is justified.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[TheRealIncarnal]

Zev's just fine in my book. The only problem I have is that he tries to kill me, which is just unacceptable by some of my characters.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, not to paint too fine a line, but he actually tried to kill himself. An "ambush" where one of the "legendary grey wardens" is warned ahead of time that there's an attack going on? *grin* Even if you never get to him admitting that he was trying to kill himself, it's pretty apparent that the attack was designed to fail.

I've accommedated him in more than a few playthroughs. 

(Apparent to who?)

The whole he's a slave, she's wasn't, I find to be a particularly weak argument.  We're all slaves to our upbringing.  Some more than others.  And many spend the better part of their lives undoing the damage done by our parents failings and flaws and prejudices.  In the end, those that find the courage to overcome those behaviors are worthy of admiration.  Whether someone puts a gun to your head or just instills poor judgement, it still comes down to choice in the end whether one perpetuates such behavior or sheds it.

Modifié par Helios969, 26 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[brain_damage]

Sabriana wrote...

One's a slave, the other one is not. Both offer to join your cause. One has a 'vision' the other one gives you logical reasons. Both will turn on you given the right situation. One will turn on you no matter what your approval is, the other one will never turn on you if the approval is high enough (and can be achieved without ever turning on the romance).

Right? So if you love Zevran, you must hate Leliana and vice versa? You logic is supreme and enchanted.
Both Zev and Leli are equally awesome.

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, not to paint too fine a line, but he actually tried to kill himself. An "ambush" where one of the "legendary grey wardens" is warned ahead of time that there's an attack going on? *grin* Even if you never get to him admitting that he was trying to kill himself, it's pretty apparent that the attack was designed to fail.

I've accommendated him in more than a few playthroughs. 

(Apparent to who?)

The whole he's a slave, she's wasn't, I find to be a particularly weak argument.  We're all slaves to our upbringing.  Some more than others.  And many spend the better part of their lives undoing the damage done by our parents failings and flaws and prejudices.  In the end, those that find the courage to overcome those behaviors are worthy of admiration.  Whether someone puts a gun to your head or just instills poor judgement, it still comes down to choice in the end whether one perpetuates such behavior or sheds it.

I'm not sure what in my quote you're responding to, but I'll bite with answering why his being a slave is different than her choosing the bard lifestyle.

After being a wh*rehouse boy (with at least one reference that he was trained there as well, if you're romancing him), at age 7, he was bought as a slave and trained to be a killer.  Had he failed at his training (which he did resist at first), he would be dead.  If he tried to leave the crows, he would be killed.  If he failed at his jobs, he would be killed.  The first chance he had to leave the Crows, he took.

Leliana did have free will.  She made a choice, a bad one, but it wasn't her wanting to leave the lifestyle that put her life in danger.  

I see those as very different.

[Sabriana]

The one thing that this thread is doing is trying to get an answer to why the female hunter and killer, who is also very much into her own gender is viewed with such a benign eye, than the male hunter who does not abhor intimate relations with his own gender.

I'm sick and tired of Leliana getting all the breaks, even though she so enjoyed hunting, torturing and killing as opposed to Zevran who does have a lot of regrets, and never would resort to torture.

[Korvayer]

I love both characters, but neither is innocent (nor is my own character, for that matter).

Leliana is as manipulative as a desire demon. She traded her dark past for the life of a chantry woman, but that didn't work out for her and she found herself slipping back into her old ways.

Zevran allows himself to be used as a tool of destruction. I spared his life, freed him, gave him my trust before he'd earned it, and he repaid me by attempting to take my life a second time.

Complicated characters, the two of them are...