766 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

One thing about Leliana is that (at least for me) it was much easier to get her approval high...you just smile and nod and let her ramble on. And if you don't get Zev's approval high, you never see any evidence that he's anything but a cold-blooded killer. With Leliana, you don't find out she's been a cold-blooded killer until you've already gotten to know her (if you ever really do...) and it's fairly easy to sidestep the conversation where she tells you she liked it (does she admit it if you don't harden her) whereas it's a very early dialogue with Zev.



As a gay man myself, it certainly wasn't issues with his sexuality that prevented me from getting close to Zev. Maybe if I'd travelled with him more (as a dual-wielding rogue PC, I found him redundant), I would have gotten higher approval, but I didn't so I never got him to tell me the last of his adventures.

[Sabriana]

He will open up more the higher his approval gets. My PCs don't agree with him all the time, and they don't hesitate to tell him so. However, they are polite about it, not rude. I've yet to get any kind of negative approval from him, whether romanced or not. He, like everyone else, gets his gifts, and those alone are enough to start him trusting the player. Little by little. He requires patience and at least politeness, he's not the type to open his mouth and throw up his heart and his regrets.

Leliana talks about her past and how she loved the 'game' whether hardened or not. She just remains the sweet lil' thing without yearning for the hunt, when not hardened. She has a very interesting banter with Zevran, where she tells him that the two of them have much in common.

Mind you, I don't dislike her, but she does have some very strange opinions and her whole 'Maker this, Chantry that' talk looks much different when hardened. For one thing, it happens very infrequently afterward, like she doesn't give it a second thought any more.

Zevran, Sten, and Oghren won't lie to the PC, ever. Morrigan, Leliana, and Alistair will. Wynne, with that thing in her is a whole other story, I don't really wish to get into.

[earl of the north]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran becomes available after the first treaty quest is done. You also get the cut scene after doing either the redcliff arc without the circle quest, and after doing the ashes quest.

What I think Sabriana is tired of is posts like Earl of the North's above, when you have two characters with the same basic background, only one had it by choice the other as a slave, both seeking the same redemption (though admittedly, after 2 years in the chantry, Leliana is further down that road), and it's a reasonable discussion to have. Comparing and contrasting them is fun. Awhile ago I started a thread regarding Alistair Vs Zevran as a romance partner, and that stayed very reasonable. There's no reason to think that Leliana Vs Zevran and their assassin ways can't be as well.

Just like I sometimes romance Alistair on my characters (who frankly, while a fantastic character, and a compelling romance, is not my type at all), I often romance Leliana as well. Of course, THAT isn't always by choice *grin* Though actually, Dialog Tweaks has fixed the ninja love problem for me.

And earl of the north -- yes, Zevran's ending is bad if you do the US. It's even worse if he's romanced, because you see how broken he becomes by the warden's death (what a difference a sentence can make in an epilogue card). I think it's best to either kill him or to set him free if you're planning on doing that (you have a couple of opportunities to set him free which don't require killing him). I think Leliana returning to Orlais is also pretty bad (though that is only one of her possible endings if doing the US).

There's the problem, they dont have the same basic background....


Leliana was a spy, not an assassin......she admits killing people during that time and after being betrayed and tortured she fled to her homeland and is trying to change her ways.

Zehran is an assassin, pure and simple.....he freely admits killing (and hugely enjoying it) and only really regrets killing one person during his time with the Crows and has no intention of changing. I've had numerous playthroughs where I've plummed the depths (100% ever time) and Zehran is still Zehran.

Even at the end of the game, he still openly wonders if he can get a job as a royal assassin....he's a cool character, but he is what he is........an assassin.  He isn't seeking redemption at all and never claims to be, unless I'm missing some dialogue somewhere.

PS I got the Crow ending after my MC romanced Zehran and then did the US........he didn't rejoin the Crows, he butchered the leadership of the Crows and took control of the remnants.  No mention of his ending the practice of buying recruits (slaves) or changing the Crows methods.  He went back to doing the thing he loved and this time he got total control as well......good result for Zehran.

Modifié par earl of the north, 27 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[ejoslin]

Even Leliana points out to Zevran how alike they are. Edit: He only agrees when she says she at least tried to give her marks a clean kill.

Zevran on more than one occasion will thank the warden for giving him a new path. And Zevran becoming leader of the crows . . . no, even in the friend ending he doesn't say it was a good thing, and in the romance ending, you see a totally broken person.

Edit: He butchered the leadership of the crows when they came after him.  He was content to stay in Ferelden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[Sabriana]

Leliana tells my PC that the Bards engage in spying, assassinations, and theft. She has a banter with Zevran where she also tells that she was a spy and an assassin.

I wonder where you found the 'hugely enjoying' part with Zevran. I've played through 3 full times and am on my 4th. I've never once got the impression that he hugely enjoyed it. He does say he enjoyed the power it gave him, but that is a very early conversation. Btw, my PCs (all of them) countered that with "I take no joy in killing." So no, I don't have them go for full approval at all cost.

The epilogue card says that he stayed in Denerim for a while, but the Crows came after him again. He took the fight to their doorstep, and after four master assassins disappeared, they readmitted him as the leader. It also says that he kept his distance from everyone, and also he was offered many bed-partners, he never loved again.

If you romanced him, you must have noticed that he is completely broken with the PCs death.



If you missed all the talks where he does voice his regrets, then I wonder how many dialogues you missed. He says among other things "I had to do many bad things." "I ask the maker for forgiveness for my sins." "I regret far more than the women and men in my life", and that's just off the top of my head.

Of course he is an assassin, but he only just started a new path.

Leliana has a 2 year head-start on him, and still gets all giddy when talking about her murderous past.

[earl of the north]

That would be the conversation where he tells Leliana who much he enjoyed the killing? He gave his marks a clean kill, which is nice and all, but not hunting them down and killing them in the first place would have been better.

He butchered the leadership and took over control of the Crows....he didn't kill off the leadership and then leave, he took control the Antivan way and now he's the top assassin in Antiva. No attempt to change the Crows is mentioned, so I assume Zehran continued the practice of buying recruits (slaves) and brutalising them into assassins.

Zehran is a very damaged individual who doesn't really care about his own life, he's able to become a modestly normal person by pairing up with MC (friend or lover) for a time but he's still a very damaged individual at the end. Take away the MC and he's back to his old life.

Modifié par earl of the north, 27 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[nYshak]

Sabriana wrote...

I wonder where you found the 'hugely enjoying' part with Zevran. I've played through 3 full times and am on my 4th. I've never once got the impression that he hugely enjoyed it. He does say he enjoyed the power it gave him, but that is a very early conversation.

There's this conversation (early I know) where you can ask him about being an assassin I believe. He basically tells you that the "act of killing" is beautiful. He goes on about the moment the blade enters the victims flesh etc. He's clearly enjoying this "act of killing".

[Sabriana]

Sigh. You're not getting it. No, he defended himself, and yes, he was readmitted as their leader. He no longer cared, because the Warden's death broke him utterly and completely.

That's speculation. He only just started a new life. Had she lived, all would be well, he never leaves her side. And yes, I interpret "The Warden stayed in suchandsuch, and Zevran stayed with her - for a time as they both stay for a time, and then leave together. No one knows what would have become of him if he had more time. Like, say 3 years (Leliana - 2 yrs chantry + appr. 1 year w/Warden = 3 years).

And yes again, that banter where she says : "We have many things in common, Zevran" and she also says that she was called upon to kill often. She also states that she enjoyed the hunt, and that she delivered the killing blow cleanly 'whenever possible.'

@ nYshak

He states that he enjoys the power it gives him, not the act. Try the "I take no pleasure in killing" PC answer, and he'll elaborate. Disturbing? Yes. Just as disturbing as Leliana telling my PC how much she enjoyed the hunting, manipulations, seductions, torturing, and killing.

Modifié par Sabriana, 27 février 2010 - 04:54 .

[ejoslin]

You're right, one of the first conversations you have with Zevran is about how much he enjoys the power he has when killing a victim. It's not until later he talks about his regrets, though the banter where he tells Alistair that he asks for forgiveness every chance he gets may come up earlier than that if you have both in their party (and yes, the context IS killing people).

Edit: I want to add, if romancing Zevran, you do see a far more remarkable recovery of him.  Stunningly amazing how he heals to an extent that even he can't believe.  But even as a friend, you may get a dialog that pretty much tells you how amazed he is to be part of something so worthy, defeating the blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[earl of the north]

No, sorry your not getting it.

I'm reading the same things your reading, I just dont come to the same conclusions, Zehran is an excellent character, but he's an assassin at the beginning of the game and at the end of the game (8th playthrough at the moment).....the reason he doesn't leave the MC side IMO is because he needs the MC to be modestly normal (as a friend or a lover), without the MC he's just a killer and he reverts back to that life first chance he gets.

Once the MC is gone, he goes back to the only life he's really known and certainly enjoyed once he got some control.....he goes back and takes total control. It's not the Antivan way to be given something, you kill your way to power and thats what Zehran did......I actually thought that ending suited his character the best.

Edit: Zehran has definitely grown on me as I replayed through DAO, he is a brillantly written example of a hugely damaged individual who is trying to change his life (once you spare him), I dont think however he is capable of seeking redemption with the time frame of the game.  Its a shame he isn't in awakenings since it would have been great to see if he was actually beginning to come to terms with his past or if he was just telling the MC what he thought the MC wanted to hear.

Modifié par earl of the north, 27 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[Sabriana]

I'll try and find the epilogue card, but if not then I'll save the one I'm playing now. I'll just reload, because my PC wouldn't sacrifice herself. He goes back after the Crows attack him again. Until then he is in Denerim. There is no conclusion, it's in the epilogue.



Anyway, I'm getting dizzy because of the circles we are talking in. I'll see if I can find the card, and then I'll post it somewhere.

[ejoslin]

I think that ending is the saddest one for him, because he DOES break in order for that to happen, whereas before he had not. And see, if you romanced him, you would see why it is so heartbreaking -- because he actually heals so much. And you can see him heal. Not that he becomes a warm, wonderful person, but he does become capable of love, and falls in love so deeply it's touching.



But even as a friend, he will stay with the warden and not go back to his old life. The fact that you think that the fitting ending is that of the leader of the crows shows you don't see how the character actually changes . . . then breaks. But there is nothing in the friendship epilogue card that indicates that he thinks it's a happy ending for him -- for the romance ending, again, it shows that everything that was good about him died with the warden.

[earl of the north]

Sabriana wrote...

I'll try and find the epilogue card, but if not then I'll save the one I'm playing now. I'll just reload, because my PC wouldn't sacrifice herself. He goes back after the Crows attack him again. Until then he is in Denerim. There is no conclusion, it's in the epilogue.

Anyway, I'm getting dizzy because of the circles we are talking in. I'll see if I can find the card, and then I'll post it somewhere.

I know the Crows attack him, really thats inevitable....he tells you that when you spare him, he knows they will come for him.  With the MC dead, staying in Denerim is the equivalent of Zheran raising a middle finger to the Crows, he makes no attempt to hide from them........nor does he have a reason to stay with the MC dead, Alistar and/or Anora are unlikely to view his presence with any degree of joy.

Modifié par earl of the north, 27 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[Addai]

nYshak wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I wonder where you found the 'hugely enjoying' part with Zevran. I've played through 3 full times and am on my 4th. I've never once got the impression that he hugely enjoyed it. He does say he enjoyed the power it gave him, but that is a very early conversation.

There's this conversation (early I know) where you can ask him about being an assassin I believe. He basically tells you that the "act of killing" is beautiful. He goes on about the moment the blade enters the victims flesh etc. He's clearly enjoying this "act of killing".

He doesn't say that it's beautiful, but does say that there is an artistry to killing that he finds satisfying.  Which is about the content of many, many conversations on this board about the awesomeness of enemies exploding or being beheaded in a gush of blood.  Moreover with Zevran it is one comment and only one aspect of his character.  He is far from an indiscriminate killer, as you discover if you bother to have him in your party.

My human nobles hear this comment, BTW, and agree with it, because they can imagine the beauty of sinking the Cousland family sword into Arl Howe's neck.  Just because the circumstances are different doesn't mean even a "good" character can't understand what Z. is saying.  My city elf female was in more of a red haze for most of the game than Zevran.  He actually grounded her.

Honestly, you would think people were playing boy scout PCs getting their honor badges in campfire building during this game.  I don't play "evil" PCs, just don't enjoy it, but the PCs I do play don't go around filing lawsuits.  They're killers.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[earl of the north]

ejoslin wrote...

I think that ending is the saddest one for him, because he DOES break in order for that to happen, whereas before he had not. And see, if you romanced him, you would see why it is so heartbreaking -- because he actually heals so much. And you can see him heal. Not that he becomes a warm, wonderful person, but he does become capable of love, and falls in love so deeply it's touching.

But even as a friend, he will stay with the warden and not go back to his old life. The fact that you think that the fitting ending is that of the leader of the crows shows you don't see how the character actually changes . . . then breaks. But there is nothing in the friendship epilogue card that indicates that he thinks it's a happy ending for him -- for the romance ending, again, it shows that everything that was good about him died with the warden.

As I said earlier my MC did romance him before her US, she was a Female Dwarf Noble who had no problem with assassins since she had used them herself before her exile...

I think were arguing past each other, I do believe Zehran changes by being given unconditional frendship (or love) for probably the first time in his life and begins to see his old life in a new light......but without the MC he cannot continue to grow and change because he needs to be a heartless killer to survive.  For him facing life without the MC, going back, slaughtering his enemies and gathering power is the best ending most suited to who Zehran really is.


Edit: My point is that Zehran isn't seeking redemption in DAO, because he never gets that far in the story....he's just beginning to admit to himself that was a problem with his old life.  Leilana has already moved past that and is seeking redemption which make it easier to view her as a good guy (well girl).

Also thinking about it again, if Leilana had been the unrepentant assassin character she probably would have still been more popular than a redemption seeking Zehran with most guys......mostly because of the reason Morrigan is so popular.

Modifié par earl of the north, 27 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[maxernst]

Sabriana wrote...

He will open up more the higher his approval gets. My PCs don't agree with him all the time, and they don't hesitate to tell him so. However, they are polite about it, not rude. I've yet to get any kind of negative approval from him, whether romanced or not.

Ive gotten plenty of negatives with him.  Told him he could remain with me after the blight as a friend, not a lover (-7), Freed him from his oath but encouraged him to stay on as friend  after Taliesen (-2), didn't agree with him on the moral of one of his adventures (- don't remember number) --said it was raher cold--I can't recall an option to disagree with him any more politely there.

He was the only companion I had that never went over +40 approval, and I never chose an option that I regarded as especially rude.  I can only recall getting positive approval twice:  once for tricking Morrigan, and once for saying it didn't offend me at all when he told me he fancied me (which was offset by the later -7). 

[nYshak]

Addai67 wrote...

nYshak wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I wonder where you found the 'hugely enjoying' part with Zevran. I've played through 3 full times and am on my 4th. I've never once got the impression that he hugely enjoyed it. He does say he enjoyed the power it gave him, but that is a very early conversation.

There's this conversation (early I know) where you can ask him about being an assassin I believe. He basically tells you that the "act of killing" is beautiful. He goes on about the moment the blade enters the victims flesh etc. He's clearly enjoying this "act of killing".

He doesn't say that it's beautiful, but does say that there is an artistry to killing that he finds satisfying.  Which is about the content of many, many conversations on this board about the awesomeness of enemies exploding or being beheaded in a gush of blood.  Moreover with Zevran it is one comment and only one aspect of his character.  He is far from an indiscriminate killer, as you discover if you bother to have him in your party.

My human nobles hear this comment, BTW, and agree with it, because they can imagine the beauty of sinking the Cousland family sword into Arl Howe's neck.  Just because the circumstances are different doesn't mean even a "good" character can't understand what Z. is saying.  My city elf female was in more of a red haze for most of the game than Zevran.  He actually grounded her.

Honestly, you would think people were playing boy scout PCs getting their honor badges in campfire building during this game.  I don't play "evil" PCs, just don't enjoy it, but the PCs I do play don't go around filing lawsuits.  They're killers.

Yes that's what I meant when I wrote "beatiful". Pretty much the same thing - he enjoys the killing. I'm not here to argue that Z. is a bad person or that L. is a good one. I just wanted to point out that particular conversation. I know there is a lot more to good old Zevi than that. I do like the character and the way he can change depending on how you play it out.

[ejoslin]

maxernst wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

He will open up more the higher his approval gets. My PCs don't agree with him all the time, and they don't hesitate to tell him so. However, they are polite about it, not rude. I've yet to get any kind of negative approval from him, whether romanced or not.

Ive gotten plenty of negatives with him.  Told him he could remain with me after the blight as a friend, not a lover (-7), Freed him from his oath but encouraged him to stay on as friend  after Taliesen (-2), didn't agree with him on the moral of one of his adventures (- don't remember number) --said it was raher cold--I can't recall an option to disagree with him any more politely there.

He was the only companion I had that never went over +40 approval, and I never chose an option that I regarded as especially rude.  I can only recall getting positive approval twice:  once for tricking Morrigan, and once for saying it didn't offend me at all when he told me he fancied me (which was offset by the later -7). 

-7 approval for a breakup.  That's actually a very low amount for the usual Zevran breakup (you can get up to 46 that I've seen).  Told him to stay when he asked to leave. Not surprising either, especially at the low end of "warm." Of course, many people seem to think that the romance starter line, "What is it you fancy," is benign, when it's clearly not ("being a crow gets you women, or men, or whatever it is you fancy," "What do YOU fancy," "would you be offended if I said I fancied you?" "not at all.")

 Most of his adventure stories I pick an option between, "You're a horrible person," and "yay for murder!"  There are those.  He talks about the mage, I pick telling him that he's cold.  You get a great answer there.  Really, if you dig along in the dialogs, you get some interesting stuff there.

Edit: before anyone jumps on it, I obviously cut out a lot of the "what is it you fancy" conversation for the sake of brevity.  It's actually FAR more flirtatious.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

-7 approval for a breakup.  That's actually a very low amount for the usual Zevran breakup (you can get up to 46 that I've seen).  Told him to stay when he asked to leave. Not surprising either, especially at the low end of "warm." Of course, many people seem to think that the romance starter line, "What is it you fancy," is benign, when it's clearly not ("being a crow gets you women, or men, or whatever it is you fancy," "What do YOU fancy," "would you be offended if I said I fancied you?" "not at all.")

 Most of his adventure stories I pick an option between, "You're a horrible person," and "yay for murder!"  There are those.  He talks about the mage, I pick telling him that he's cold.  You get a great answer there.  Really, if you dig along in the dialogs, you get some interesting stuff there.

Edit: before anyone jumps on it, I obviously cut out a lot of the "what is it you fancy" conversation for the sake of brevity.  It's actually FAR more flirtatious.

Well, I don't think accepting a compliment and flirting a bit should cause somebody to be "breaking up with you" when you decide not to take it further, particularly when by the time the second conversation came up it was months later when you're romancing somebody else.  And when I told him he was cold, I got more negative approval.

Look, I'm not saying he's necessarily a horrible person.  I'll freely admit I didn't get to know him that well.  I'm saying that based on the conversations my PC had with him, there wasn't much to encourage him to try hard to get to know him and for me he was by far the hardest companion to raise approval on.  Therefore, unlike Leliana some players are not going to go as deep into the conversational threads, and from what I saw of him in my game, he absolutely did come across as a remorseless killer and she does not. 

To me, fundamentally Leliana and Zevran are like two boxers.  One of them tells you that they love the challenge and the competition and get an adrenaline rush from being in the ring.  The other tells you that they love the sound of bones crunching under their fists and making his opponents bleed.  They both do the same things but one sounds a lot creepier, and I don't think you have to be a "boy scout" to find killing people for pleasure (which is sure what that line suggests to me) distasteful.

Modifié par maxernst, 27 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[ejoslin]

For every romanceable character, there are lines that are romance starter lines. That's one of Zevran's. It's a game mechanic. It might annoy you, but it is CLEARLY a romance starter line. There are two other not-negative answer to that dialog. You don't have to turn on the romance there, but his answer is pretty hot when you do.



I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying to you that you have not dug around in the dialogs, never really did find where he talked about regrets, obviously never got the thanks for showing him a new path -- they ARE there. If you actually spend the time to get to know the character, not be rude but at the same time not be a murder cheerleader, you may learn that a lot of what you believe can be countered by other things he says.



He is not a boyscout for sure. But he does have regrets, he is trying to get out of his old life (which is cannot do without the warden), and he, if romanced, heals probably more than if kept in friend zone, but it's an amazing healing to watch.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Sabrina, I got a question.



Does Leliana really say she enjoys killing and torturing? I only heard her admitting she likes the hunt and seduction. I find it hard to believe unless she says it after hardening, which I don't ever do to her.

[krylo]

As I recall you don't necessarily have to harden her. Just let her kill Marjolaine. She then talks about enjoying the murder and it reminding her of her earlier days.

I think it's a bit more CLEAR that she enjoyed murder if you harden her, however.

I don't recall her saying she enjoyed the torture, though, and her talks with Zevran, in which she said she ended it cleanly whenever it was possible, seem to point the opposite direction.

Though, in the words of the great Zaeed Massani, torture changes people, both the torturer and the victim.

Modifié par krylo, 27 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Oh that part. I don't think Lel really enjoys murder. I believe she talks about enjoying it due to all the mindfu*#ing fom Marjolaine. The witch really knows how to press the right buttons.

[maxernst]

Ah...that's why I' didn't see that conversation. My party didn't kill Marjolaine. I wouldn't have described it as a "not letting" her kill Marjolaine, though. The way the encounter went in my game, Leliana didn't indicate any particular desire to kill her...I was sort of waiting for her to make the call and she didn't.



When I got back to camp, she was talking about whether she should have stayed in the chantry, and whether Marjolaine was right about her, but she never said anything about enjoying killing.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Ive gotten plenty of negatives with him.  Told him he could remain with me after the blight as a friend, not a lover (-7), Freed him from his oath but encouraged him to stay on as friend  after Taliesen (-2), didn't agree with him on the moral of one of his adventures (- don't remember number) --said it was raher cold--I can't recall an option to disagree with him any more politely there.

He was the only companion I had that never went over +40 approval, and I never chose an option that I regarded as especially rude.  I can only recall getting positive approval twice:  once for tricking Morrigan, and once for saying it didn't offend me at all when he told me he fancied me (which was offset by the later -7). 

I've never had trouble raising Zevran to at least Warm (which is where he will fight for your character against Taliesin, if not romanced, and stay with you post-game).  This includes games where the romance got turned on, inadvertently or not, and my PC broke up with him.  The only game where he turned on me at meeting Taliesin was my first character where I was clueless, didn't know which gifts to give him, and totally ignored him.

My current HNM character only got one approval bump from him that I recall, for agreeing about it feeling good to kill, and the rest have been small negatives apart from his gifts.  Zevran is already at Warm, without my character especially trying to be nice to him.  All I can say is you might try it again, because your experience is not that of others.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 février 2010 - 09:36 .