766 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

That gibes exactly with my experience. I just barely had enough approval to get through Taliesin...and only because of gifts. I don't see how you can say that you only got one approval bump (and that for a dialogue choice I would not take) and claim he's easy.to raise approval on,



After sparing his life you still need to bribe him not to kill you--that's pretty far from being an outstandingly loyal party member.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

That gibes exactly with my experience. I just barely had enough approval to get through Taliesin...and only because of gifts. I don't see how you can say that you only got one approval bump (and that for a dialogue choice I would not take) and claim he's easy.to raise approval on,

After sparing his life you still need to bribe him not to kill you--that's pretty far from being an outstandingly loyal party member.

Bribery, eh?  Is that how you see all the companion gift-giving?  Let's face it, you just have a negative disposition to the character and nothing is going to change your mind.  My point was that despite not having any conversation bumps, he still stayed with my PC and would stay with him rebuilding the Grey Wardens at the end game.  None of the other companions do so except Alistair.

The Taliesin confrontation is part of his character arc.  Think about what he was hoping to accomplish when he first encounters the Warden (hint:  It was not trying to kill you.)  But I'm tired of trying to explain such things to Zevran-haters.  Go over and read some of the "Zevran romance" thread if you care.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

That gibes exactly with my experience. I just barely had enough approval to get through Taliesin...and only because of gifts. I don't see how you can say that you only got one approval bump (and that for a dialogue choice I would not take) and claim he's easy.to raise approval on,

After sparing his life you still need to bribe him not to kill you--that's pretty far from being an outstandingly loyal party member.

Bribery, eh?  Is that how you see all the companion gift-giving?  Let's face it, you just have a negative disposition to the character and nothing is going to change your mind.  My point was that despite not having any conversation bumps, he still stayed with my PC and would stay with him rebuilding the Grey Wardens at the end game.  None of the other companions do so except Alistair.

The Taliesin confrontation is part of his character arc.  Think about what he was hoping to accomplish when he first encounters the Warden (hint:  It was not trying to kill you.)  But I'm tired of trying to explain such things to Zevran-haters.  Go over and read some of the "Zevran romance" thread if you care.

I have to say that I rather see the gift giving as bribery, as well. I much prefer to gain approval through conversation and deeds. In my last two playthroughs, I've only given the gifts that are integral to the characters and have cutscenes, because I consider those plot related. I find progressing with the characters much more satisfying when I do it that way. I know the gifts are intended to be given, but it still feels like I'm buying approval instead of earning it.

[Addai]

The major gifts are cutscenes, and all the gifts require you to have talked to the character and found out about him or her. I see it as learning what a person likes and responding accordingly, just as you would do with any friend.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maxernst has a point. The "generic gifts" that Zevran likes are silver and golden bars. Unless he likes to decorate his room with them or study them to further his knowledge on minerals, it's probably because they are worth alot. So it is pseudo bribery. The gloves and boots on the otherhand, not so much.

[ejoslin]

Zevran also has fewer gifts than any of the other companions. 2 plot gifts, and 4 bars. Of course, even if you stick with the two plot gifts and are decent in the one forced conversation after his approval hits +26 (the two plot gifts will get you above that), you're high enough for him not to betray you. Call him your servant in that conversation, all bets are off.

[Nonvita]

errant_knight wrote...

I have to say that I rather see the gift giving as bribery, as well. I much prefer to gain approval through conversation and deeds. In my last two playthroughs, I've only given the gifts that are integral to the characters and have cutscenes, because I consider those plot related. I find progressing with the characters much more satisfying when I do it that way. I know the gifts are intended to be given, but it still feels like I'm buying approval instead of earning it.

Hm, I don't necessarily see the gifts as 'bribery' if you don't take them as such. Unfortunately the conversations you have with companions can only take you so far. For example, my HN is rather direct and has lost approval with Zevran on every conversation. However, I don't see that as reflecting the fact that they really do respect each other, and that the dialogue results don't reflect how I imagine their relationship actually plays out. So I don't really view the gifts as gifts but as positive aspects of their relationship that aren't reflected by the conversations. Now, if I can get away with not using gifts I prefer not to, but I think they're there so that you don't have to always be lovey dovey nice in order to become friends with the companions.

It is a bit of a strange mechanic, though, and your point of view is definitely an understandable (and admirable!) approach.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maxernst has a point. The
"generic gifts" that Zevran likes are silver and golden bars. Unless he
likes to decorate his room with them or study them to further his
knowledge on minerals, it's probably because they are worth alot. So it
is pseudo bribery. The gloves and boots on the otherhand, not so much.

It says in his codex entry that he appreciates the simple beauty of the bars. That's not to say he doesn't go right out and sell them, but there is something slightly more to it than, "Here's something worth a lot of money. Go buy yourself some wine and a ****." I think throwing toys at Alistair to go play with in his tent is a much larger case of bribery.

Modifié par Nonvita, 27 février 2010 - 10:46 .

[errant_knight]

And there are a lot of gifts! When you consider that this takes place in the space of about a year, you have the option of just showering them with gifts. Really, with a friend, you probably wouldn't give them more than two or three gifts in that time. Even a lover might be a little freaked out by that kind of largesse.

Nonvita wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I have to say that I rather see the gift giving as bribery, as well. I much prefer to gain approval through conversation and deeds. In my last two playthroughs, I've only given the gifts that are integral to the characters and have cutscenes, because I consider those plot related. I find progressing with the characters much more satisfying when I do it that way. I know the gifts are intended to be given, but it still feels like I'm buying approval instead of earning it.

Hm, I don't necessarily see the gifts as 'bribery' if you don't take them as such. Unfortunately the conversations you have with companions can only take you so far. For example, my HN is rather direct and has lost approval with Zevran on every conversation. However, I don't see that as reflecting the fact that they really do respect each other, and that the dialogue results don't reflect how I imagine their relationship actually plays out. So I don't really view the gifts as gifts but as positive aspects of their relationship that aren't reflected by the conversations. Now, if I can get away with not using gifts I prefer not to, but I think they're there so that you don't have to always be lovey dovey nice in order to become friends with the companions.

It is a bit of a strange mechanic, though, and your point of view is definitely an understandable (and admirable!) approach.

Why, thank you!

I think the solution would be to have more dialogue with which one could gain approval, but I can see that time and budget constraints might have prevented that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 février 2010 - 10:47 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

And there are a lot of gifts! When you consider that this takes place in the space of about a year, you have the option of just showering them with gifts. Really, with a friend, you probably wouldn't give them more than two or three gifts in that time. Even a lover might be a little freaked out by that kind of largesse.

Not if you consider it as also sharing the loot that you're picking up from your pillaging and foraging your way through Ferelden.  What makes them special, worthy of high approval bumps rather than just serving as hazard pay, is if you give people things you know they will appreciate because you've taken the time to study what they like and choose accordingly.

[Emerald Melios]

DrunkDeadman wrote...

Sabrina, I got a question.

Does Leliana really say she enjoys killing and torturing? I only heard her admitting she likes the hunt and seduction. I find it hard to believe unless she says it after hardening, which I don't ever do to her.

After dealing with Marjolaine, when you talk to her at camp, she admits that part of her enjoys all the killing.

[ejoslin]

Emerald Melios wrote...

DrunkDeadman wrote...

Sabrina, I got a question.

Does Leliana really say she enjoys killing and torturing? I only heard her admitting she likes the hunt and seduction. I find it hard to believe unless she says it after hardening, which I don't ever do to her.

After dealing with Marjolaine, when you talk to her at camp, she admits that part of her enjoys all the killing.

She sure does.  She says, "part of me loves hunting men down, killing them . . ."  Now, if she really means this, or is just trying to be the woman that the warden wants her to be, that's another issue.

[krylo]

I'm not sure Leliana really means anything.

I believe she's such an expert at becoming other people that her own personality has all but atrophied. It's there, but it merely exists as an undercurrent for whatever mask she is currently wearing.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see an expansion to deal with her more completely and perhaps peel off all the years of hiding and reveal what she's REALLY like. It'd be interesting.

Modifié par krylo, 28 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[Nonvita]

Addai67 wrote...

Not if you consider it as also sharing
the loot that you're picking up from your pillaging and foraging your
way through Ferelden.  What makes them special, worthy of high approval
bumps rather than just serving as hazard pay, is if you give people
things you know they will appreciate because you've taken the time to
study what they like and choose accordingly.

Or because you installed a mod that tells you who wants what!

ejoslin wrote...

She sure does.  She says, "part of me loves hunting men down, killing them . . ."  Now, if she really means this, or is just trying to be the woman that the warden wants her to be, that's another issue.

For that reason, I actually prefer hardening Alistair over hardening Leliana. Strangely, although it's a pretty ****y thing to say, the Alistair hardening line has fit pretty naturally with my characters so far. And in the end it feels more like changing his personality is something Alistair chose rather than something forced on him. With Leliana it's like she just goes along with what the Warden says to her, and yet I didn't feel like the dialogue choices really reflected what my characters wanted to say. It was either you get the Leliana who loves killing or the Leliana who loves the Chantry. I think I'd like her character more if it weren't always such a polar dichotomy between the two extremes.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

ejoslin wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...

DrunkDeadman wrote...

Sabrina, I got a question.

Does Leliana really say she enjoys killing and torturing? I only heard her admitting she likes the hunt and seduction. I find it hard to believe unless she says it after hardening, which I don't ever do to her.

After dealing with Marjolaine, when you talk to her at camp, she admits that part of her enjoys all the killing.

She sure does.  She says, "part of me loves hunting men down, killing them . . ."  Now, if she really means this, or is just trying to be the woman that the warden wants her to be, that's another issue.

As I said before, I believe this is the effect of Marjolaine mindfu$%ing Leliana. Leliana seems to be quite confused about herself. Does she really love to kill? Who knows, but that's exactly what Marjolaine wanted her to think, being a manipulative b*%ch that she is.

[ejoslin]

Maybe it's possible that, as Leliana says, when discussing seducing men, that she just becomes the woman he wants her to be.

[krylo]

Nonvita wrote...

Or because you installed a mod that tells you who wants what!

I should get that mod.  I always forget which pretty trinkets are for Morrigan and which are party wide.

Modifié par krylo, 28 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[Cuddlezarro]

funnily enough I have no problems getting Zevran and Morrigan to high approval without nonplot gifts even on my rare goody twoshoes playthroughs



the only time I ever really lose major approval with morrigan is redcliff

[Maria Caliban]

krylo wrote...

I'm not sure Leliana really means anything.

I believe she's such an expert at becoming other people that her own personality has all but atrophied. It's there, but it merely exists as an undercurrent for whatever mask she is currently wearing.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see an expansion to deal with her more completely and perhaps peel off all the years of hiding and reveal what she's REALLY like. It'd be interesting.

Leliana is by far the most maliable of party members.

If you were her friend, took her to a Thai resturant and told her how you loved Thai food, she'd try her best to like it. If it was something she sort liked, she'd tell you it was *wonderful.* Even if she hated it, she'd smile, eat it, and find something good to say about it.

Her "I would have dated Alistair" line with the female PC is very telling. The VA notes specifically say she's hiding the truth. She's not interested in Alistair, but the FemPC is and they're friends, so she's going to lie and say she thinks he's attractive.

The game does show us what Leliana is *really* like. She's friendly, enjoys attention, is scatter-brained, thinks with her heart instead of her head, and tends to go off on flights of fancy.

Whether Leliana likes X or not heavily depends on whether the people she cares for likes X or not. What if Leliana were all alone? What would she like then? Very little, because she'd be lonely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...
 What if Leliana were all alone? What would she like then? Very little, because she'd be lonely.

This.
In fact, I think that's precisely why she took up the worship of the Maker. And why, I think, she convinces herself that the Maker sends her visions. We don't really know if the visions are real or not, but I think they are illusions created by a sub-conscious yearning. The yearning of not being alone.

Eh, who would have thought there is something interesting in Leliana other than her hair, eyes, her singing voice and her ridiculously cute accent.
 

[Nonvita]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Leliana is by far the most maliable of party members.

If you were her friend, took her to a Thai resturant and told her how you loved Thai food, she'd try her best to like it. If it was something she sort liked, she'd tell you it was *wonderful.* Even if she hated it, she'd smile, eat it, and find something good to say about it.

Her "I would have dated Alistair" line with the female PC is very telling. The VA notes specifically say she's hiding the truth. She's not interested in Alistair, but the FemPC is and they're friends, so she's going to lie and say she thinks he's attractive.

The game does show us what Leliana is *really* like. She's friendly, enjoys attention, is scatter-brained, thinks with her heart instead of her head, and tends to go off on flights of fancy.

Whether Leliana likes X or not heavily depends on whether the people she cares for likes X or not. What if Leliana were all alone? What would she like then? Very little, because she'd be lonely.

Thanks for this post. It actually just helped me understand her a lot more.

[soignee]

I can never bring myself to harden Leliana, it just seems so cruel and pointless. One day I will create a nice chatacter for her to love so I don't feel so guilty about THE FRIEND ZONE I always put her in. Perhaps a pretty city elf? Aaaw, yeah. I'm going to do that now.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Leliana is by far the most maliable of party members.
 

Your post is interesting, although I'm curious how other people react to these thoughts.  Because I get the feeling you are saying this as a positive?  She is your avatar, after all.  However for me, your description actually makes me want to walk in the other direction from Leliana, and maybe walk a little faster.  And I get the feeling I'd look over my shoulder and see her following me, which would make me want to walk even faster... etc. etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 février 2010 - 04:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

soignee wrote...

I can never bring myself to harden Leliana, it just seems so cruel and pointless.

Why is it cruel and pointless?
If anything, Leliana is finally having an indepedent personality of her own. And this personality has her enjoying hunting people down, seducing them, manipulating them and killing them if need be. Granted, she needs the PC to push her. But I saw hardening her as encouraging her to be herself, instead of lying to herself just to please others.

Plus, she is the perfect femme fatale. Denying her the pleasure of doing her job well is cruel.    

[Nonvita]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Leliana is by far the most maliable of party members.
 

Your post is interesting, although I'm curious how other people react to these thoughts.  Because I get the feeling you are saying this as a positive?  She is your avatar, after all.  However for me, your description actually makes me want to walk in the other direction from Leliana, and maybe walk a little faster.  And I get the feeling I'd look over my shoulder and see her following me, which would make me want to walk even faster... etc. etc.

It doesn't have to be a positive, because you can like whoever you want. I will say, though, that it makes me understand her much more. I've felt like I'm a similar type of person many times- that I let other people influence who I am because I don't know who I am myself. The music I like, the movies, the way I dress, many of the choices I've made, so much of it has been because I've been influenced by others. And there's a lot of good and a lot of bad to being like that, just as with any other personality.

I still have some problems with her character, though I think it's less because of her and more because of the limited PC responses. I can't say whatever I want to say to her, so I can't get answers to all the questions I want to ask. But it's like that with every character.

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Because I get the feeling you are saying this as a positive?

I'm describing the character as I see her. I like Leliana. I also like Hannibal Lector, a sociopathic cannibal. I find them interesting and well done.

That’s not to say that I find all their character traits innately positive.

She is your avatar, after all.

She’s a cute redhead.

Think of it this way: “We like people because of their virtues. We love people because of their flaws.”

I am a fan of the character, but this hardly means I consider her the perfect woman. Leliana is charming, and if I occasionally found her creepy (Lady covered in blood cheerfully telling me God sent her to help me) that only adds to the character.