766 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm describing the character as I see her. I like Leliana. I also like Hannibal Lector, a sociopathic cannibal. I find them interesting and well done.

That’s not to say that I find all their character traits innately positive.

Understood.  I just couldn't tell if your post was written with the subtext "I like her because..."

[DalishRanger]

An interesting topic. While I think the OP was written in a rather flame baiting manner, I do not believe that was the intent (rather, a want for a serious discussion but written during a moment of frustration), so I see no point in personal attacks. But whatever, I'm fairly non-confrontational.

Myself, while Leliana is my favorite companion, I also love Zevran and find both of them to have quite morally reprehensible histories that are equally difficult (though, not necessarily impossible) to fully justify. What's more important to me is the potential for redemption, rather than past lives - regardless of circumstance.

As to why fewer people seem to find issue with Leliana than Zevran? I chalk it up to double standards. In most societies and in most circumstances, women are given more grounds for forgiveness/tolerance of poor behavior than men. As progressive as some people like to think themselves, we are at least somewhat shaped by our society and cultural views, even if we strive to overcome or change them.

In the end, the characters are largely colored by our own interpretations - which in turn are shaped from our biases, life experiences, morals, etc.

For clarification, I am speaking in broad, general terms - not targeting anybody specific on this topic or forum. I figure since it's so easy to misinterpret text, I should point that out.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 28 février 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sabriana]

Flame baiting? No, that was not my intention. Shock value? Perhaps. And yes, I was getting quite frustrated that one murderer is treated far, far different than another murderer, and I wish to know why. There are many "I killed Zevran, and I loved it" threads around, and now he is even pegged as a rapist.

Leliana also seduced men, with the sole intention to get close enough to kill them. Just like Zevran. To both, bard and assassin, sex was merely a tool. In Zevran's case, the tool was used by target and assassin alike, but suddenly he's a rapist.

As lovely Lel points out to Zevran: "We have much in common." However, people seem so eager to overlook the fact that she is a killer, a seducer, a spy, and a hunter as well. She even admits that she loved the life. As she stated, she was a bard for 'most of her adult life'. I only wish to hear why people think that one murderer is better than the other. Let us not forget that Leliana has a 2year head-start on Zevran as far as redemption is concerned.

Of course, I'm only human, and being called a troll for an opening post did not sit well with me, and I do agree that text can easily come off harsher than intended.

[The_Abyss]

*shrug* I have no problems with either of them, personally. While it is quite understandable that people would be cautious of taking someone who was trying to kill you, leliana is just as suspicious when she joins - I mean, she's covered in blood and says she sees god telling her to join you. In real life most people would be "uh, ok, I'll just stand over in that corner and pretend I didn't see you".



However, a religious rogue is such an oxymoron that I always take her anyways.

[Sabriana]

The 'pliable because of fearing to end up alone again' argument makes a lot of sense. Especially considering that she tells my PC that even in the chantry others were snubbing her, more or less. It makes her a deeper character, and I do wonder which one is closer to the real Leliana, the one who finally admits that her life as a bard was exiting and fun, or the one who is so very tied to the Maker.

Majorlaine tells Leliana that they are much alike, and in camp Leliana seems to lean toward that assessment. However, saying the right words, the PC can convince her that this is not so.

Hmm, in light of the above argument, I wonder if Leliana is truly convinced that she is a good person, or if she just doesn't want to counter the PC. That could actually be quite scary for the PC, and sad for Leliana.

As for the gifts, I don't see them as bribery. The PC and her gang loots everything, and it's not as if they didn't have a hand in fighting their way through things to get to the loot. I see it as part of their share, and being a nice PC, she will hand over the stuff she knows they will enjoy.

Alistair gets his action figures, because he voiced a preference for them at the "Wonders of Thedas".

Morrigan gets her pretty baubles, because the PC knows she was deprived of these things in the wilds.

Leliana gets her chantry stuff, because if the PC doesn't know that she is attached to the chantry, then she is blind and deaf.

Is there really a PC around who doesn't know that Oghren loves booze?

Zevran tells my PC that he is as 'poor as a chantry mouse', so he gets the gold and silver

With Wynne, the wine was a surprise, the books not at all.

The true surprise was Sten and his paintings. So now, if the PC and merry band liberates paintings, they're his.

Shale and shiny rocks. Not much of a stretch. They have a right to their share of the loot. If there is something in the loot that they really like, my PC will show her gratitude toward her companions by giving this to them.

[Tirigon]

Sabriana wrote...

Flame baiting? No, that was not my intention. Shock value? Perhaps. And yes, I was getting quite frustrated that one murderer is treated far, far different than another murderer, and I wish to know why. There are many "I killed Zevran, and I loved it" threads around, and now he is even pegged as a rapist.
Leliana also seduced men, with the sole intention to get close enough to kill them. Just like Zevran. To both, bard and assassin, sex was merely a tool. In Zevran's case, the tool was used by target and assassin alike, but suddenly he's a rapist.
As lovely Lel points out to Zevran: "We have much in common." However, people seem so eager to overlook the fact that she is a killer, a seducer, a spy, and a hunter as well. She even admits that she loved the life. As she stated, she was a bard for 'most of her adult life'. I only wish to hear why people think that one murderer is better than the other. Let us not forget that Leliana has a 2year head-start on Zevran as far as redemption is concerned.
Of course, I'm only human, and being called a troll for an opening post did not sit well with me, and I do agree that text can easily come off harsher than intended.

Funnily, the fact that Lelianna is NOT an angel is the only reason I can stand her at all. I often wished to kill her "paladin-like" behaviour and all this whining whenever you do something that is not totally good.

[Sabriana]

Good point, Tirigon.



*remembers Casavir and shudders* (Yes. I know it's an Obsidian game)



There are probably many who like the 'femme fatale' aspect of her. A bad girl who will stay on the good and narrow path for the lurve of one guy/girl. I guess it works both ways, and the bad girl/boy does have appeal.

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

Flame baiting? No, that was not my intention. Shock value? Perhaps. And yes, I was getting quite frustrated that one murderer is treated far, far different than another murderer, and I wish to know why. 

From my perspective, I have to say it's completely opposite.  Sure there are some diehard Leli fangirls/boys, but I don't see a thread 150+ post long! on Leliana.  When I first joined and expressed my passion for Leli I got torched.
 
I think part of the problem is that Leliana appears to be actively seeking redemption.  Knowing what I know now I accept this could be disingenuine since she desires above all else group acceptance.  But upon first encounter, without digging too deeply, she seems to want to redeem herself for her past.

Zevran on the otherhand makes no apologies for the life, even going so far as to express the satisfaction he feels as his blade sinks in his victim, (not to mention your first encounter with him is less than amicable.)  It's only when you dig deeper that you learn there is more substance to his character than a killer.

So just on the surface, one is easier to accept than the other.  Like in real life when we meet someone new, we generally accept the mask that they present and do not press them for more (sometimes never) until we know them very well.

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, when you first take Zevran into the group, you have to consider what must be going through his (fictional) head. He's an assassin who uses seduction, that is what his purpose is. So if the warden takes him in, it most likely is for one of those two things.



He doesn't lie to the warden. Leliana does, and since part of her prior life is using deceit, it's a bit unnerving. If a femwarden is in a romance with Alistair, there may be additional dialog where Leliana obviously cannot tell the difference between genuine loving looks, and part of the game she used to play. Which is actually very sad.

[Sabriana]

Leliana does appear to seek redemption, but she is too easily swayed. The scene with Majorlaine is followed by her being all kinds of torn, in several directions.

Also, as Ejoslin said, she lies to the PC, and only after reaching a certain point does she tell the truth. And what a lot of people seem to forget is that Leliana has a 2 year head-start on the whole "new path" issue. Furthermore, even with this huge head-start, she still admits that she enjoyed the seductions, the hunt, and the manipulations. She admits it to Zevran, and she admits it to the Warden.

To expect Zevran to do a complete turn-around within days or even weeks is expecting too much too soon. He was a child prostitute (the massage skills learned in the brothel really leave little to the imagination), and then sold to a guild of assassins. He has his first legitimate shot at freedom when he meets the Warden.

And btw. he doesn't try to kill the Warden. I won't say any more, because it might spoil a play-through, but do get him to be a friend, or play a femWarden and romance him, and you will find out.

As for the 'Leliana' threads, I seem to be finding plenty all over the site, even in the Awakenings forum. Sorry you were torched, that shouldn't have happened. How you play your game, and who you like is entirely your business.

[DalishRanger]

Sabriana wrote...
Also, as Ejoslin said, she lies to the PC, and only after reaching a certain point does she tell the truth.

She does indeed leave out important information about her past. However, I see it as this: Her past has little to do with the mission on hand, it's something she's still coping with, and she doesn't know the Warden well enough/trust them enough early on to be willing to divulge this information. I don't hold it against her in the slightest for skirting the issue, and I think many people in her place (including myself), would do the same or similar. 

The fact she comes clean at all - and does so before it does start to affect the group when the assassins come after her (which, granted, is partially a game mechanic and not just pure story-related in its timing), shows her growing trust in the Warden and her sincerity - at least in this issue.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Sabriana wrote...
To expect Zevran to do a complete turn-around within days or even weeks is expecting too much too soon.

I agree, completely. People can change, but it takes time. To expect Zevran to do a 180 on his personality, even within the time span of the main campaign, is being unrealistic, I think. Baby steps if you wish to change him, sure. But a full on redemption/change/etc? No. To do so would be a disservice to the depth of his character.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 28 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[Sabriana]

Did you hear his confession yet, DalishRanger? No, he will not become Saint Zevran, ever. But he will chuck off his past. He repeatedly says that he wants a new path, a new life, and even thanks the Warden for making it possible.

Sure, in the beginning he talks about staying an assassin, but that changes during the game. Did you listen to him tell the Warden: "I've never done anything so worthy, fighting the Blight."?



Yeah, with Leliana it is game mechanics. Majorlaine was after her when she learned Leliana split the Chantry. I agree, she does finally tell the truth. And she does it after the approval is high enough. However, the Warden also has to set this in motion with her question about Orlesian bards and spies.

I also agree that she likely didn't trust the Warden enough earlier, and hedges the issue. She might also be afraid to be asked to leave, and Leliana is a person who abhors loneliness.

But the fact that she still thinks fondly of her 'bard-time', and that she compares herself to Zevran makes me question her complete redemption as well.

[DalishRanger]

Sabriana wrote...

Did you hear his confession yet, DalishRanger? No, he will not become Saint Zevran, ever. But he will chuck off his past.

Yes, I have. I have romanced and befriended all four romanacable characters on multiple playthroughs with different Wardens. I never said Zevran would be fully redeemed (insomuch as that he stops killing/enjoying combat/etc/etc), or that I wished it so, did I? If that was unclear, I'm sorry. I simply mean those who villify Zevran solely because he doesn't do a complete turnaround in such a short time are being unrealistic.


Edit: On an unrelated note, I just noticed your username has my real name in it, if you remove the "Sa" suffix.
Interesting. I've never seen my name as part of another name before - only on its own. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

Modifié par DalishRanger, 28 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[Sabriana]

It's a popular name in my country.

I guess I did misread that then. I apologize. It's getting late and I guess I should go to sleep, instead of misinterpreting other people's posts.

[DalishRanger]

Neato!



No worries. Even if we disagree on certain points, I'm not going to attack you for misinterpretation or difference in opinion. So much connotation is lost in writing when you can't see body language or hear tones - even when you're fully awake.



Perhaps that's one reason why there's so much fan ****** on the Internet? People misread things and everyone gets worked up and it just devolves into one giant cluster... Well, you get the idea.

[maxernst]

I can totally see why people question Leliana's redemption. I'm not really sure she ever tells the truth completely. I see hardening her as simply reinforcing Marjolaine's training rather than freeing her to be herself.



As to whether Zev ever lies....well, does it really make sense for him to be as poor as a church mouse, given what he tells us about being a member of the Crowes in Antiva? And if he was realy trying to kill himself when he attacks the player, isn't it a little strange that if his approval's not high enough he's willing to go back to the Crowes at the first opportunity?



I don't really mind being lied to all that much...it depends on the motivation behind the lies. Maybe Leliana is ashamed of her past, maybe she just fears rejection...these things are harmless. She does put the party in danger though because of Marjolaine which is more of a problem.



But what if Zevran is lying when he takes an oath to serve you and is really just biding his time until he has an opportunity to turn on you and claim his reward? Maybe he's been in contact with Taliesen all along. Perhaps it's only after you raise his approval and he's been with you a while that he begins to change his mind about being a Crowe. A thing we have to remember is that we tend to assume the last version of their past our companions gave us is the truth, but in most cases, we have no actual way of verifying whether they've told the truth or not.



But of course, my opinion is meaningless because I don't know Zevran the way the fangirls do. Unlike every other character in the game, there's only one correct way to see him. So I must either be homophobic, or be a heartless monster because I can't forgive him for being the product of his past, or (paradoxically) be playing an unrealistically saintly PC, or I'm just not working hard enough to understand the setting. Ok--not fair to everyone, but that is the tone some of the pro-Zev posts have taken.

[DalishRanger]

maxernst wrote...
But of course, my opinion is meaningless because I don't know Zevran the way the fangirls do. Unlike every other character in the game, there's only one correct way to see him. So I must either be homophobic, or be a heartless monster because I can't forgive him for being the product of his past, or (paradoxically) be playing an unrealistically saintly PC, or I'm just not working hard enough to understand the setting. Ok--not fair to everyone, but that is the tone some of the pro-Zev posts have taken.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I just have to put in my two cents that any well-informed opinion is a valid one. Not everyone is going to see Zevran or Leliana's actions as redeemable, even if they get the full understanding of the characters. Unfortunately, not everyone can step outside their fanboy/girlisms to try and discuss from differing perspectives.

[Nonvita]

maxernst wrote...
Nice long juicy post.

If Zevran fangirls can be harsh (myself included, obviously), it's because most of the posts against Zevran are in the form you mention. Now, you yourself do raise good points in a reasonable manner, so I don't think you need to fear our wrath.

But to address some of your concerns- Zevran's betrayal is something that a lot of people get very angry at. But you do have to consider it from his point of view. He joined up with you in the hopes that he could break free from the Crows and be given a chance at a new life. If you don't talk to him you won't hear it, but there are certain dialogues where he will admit that in taking the oath he felt the Warden took an unspoken oath as well, and that was to protect him in the same way he would now fight for the Warden.

If he turns on you then you had him at very low approval- it means you either didn't talk to him or give him any gifts, or you were pretty rude to him. Most people have probably simply left him at camp and never bothered to use him. So Zevran ends up seeing it as a betrayal against him; he feels that he is unsafe with the Warden and that returning to the Crows is his only option left. It's not at all something he wants to do, but he ends up finding it a better option than staying with the Warden because at least he has felt at home with the Crows.

But it's really the fault of the Warden who ignored him. Zevran really just wants to be wanted and treated like a friend. If there is no evidence that those things will happen, then he feels the unspoken oath has been broken and that he has no future with the Warden.



As for Leliana's betrayal, it's never really bothered me. It doesn't surprise me at all that she would hide things from the Warden when she first meets them. She, too, wants a new life, and by admitting her past she could easily compromise her relationship with the Warden and thus lose her chance to join with them.

More than that aspect, the only thing that bothers me is it never truly feels like she comes to terms with anything. She either reverts to her old self or continues to look to the Chantry to help her change, but there's never the feeling that she learned anything or is able to find a balance between the two. It's either "go back to the way you were and ignore the things you've been learning since then" or "just try and forget that you did anything bad so it'll go away." That, to me, has never felt completely satisfying.

[krylo]

maxernst wrote...

As to whether Zev ever lies....well, does it really make sense for him to be as poor as a church mouse, given what he tells us about being a member of the Crowes in Antiva?

Yes. 

Did you not listen to what he tells you about it?  He got what he needed, food, clothes, bed, and a little coin.  MOST of his perks had nothing to do with money and everything to do with position.  It's like if you go out in the dwarf noble origin on the streets.  You have zero money in your pockets (unless you sell DLC stuff, like I tend to) but everyone treats you like some kind of walking god incarnate.  The difference being that the noble could probably request some money from daddy, Zev more than likely could not.

And if he was realy trying to kill himself when he attacks the player, isn't it a little strange that if his approval's not high enough he's willing to go back to the Crowes at the first opportunity?

Nope.  If he has low approval he doesn't trust the player, and he's just been found by the Crows.  He has three choices:

1) Make a leap of faith that this person he doesn't know/doesn't like/doesn't like him (low approval) will protect him.

2) Die.

3) Return with Talisien.

Neither is a good choice, but any sensible person would probably find the third option to be the least likely to end up with him dead.

I don't really mind being lied to all that much...it depends on the motivation behind the lies. Maybe Leliana is ashamed of her past, maybe she just fears rejection...these things are harmless. She does put the party in danger though because of Marjolaine which is more of a problem.

I don't know about that.  I found her lies pretty disturbing when I was romancing her, and then she started telling me about how she would become her mark's perfect woman, seduce them, and then kill them.  How she talked about how good she was at it while in a romance with me.

I quit the relationship straight away at that point on my first play through.

But what if Zevran is lying when he takes an oath to serve you and is really just biding his time until he has an opportunity to turn on you and claim his reward? Maybe he's been in contact with Taliesen all along. Perhaps it's only after you raise his approval and he's been with you a while that he begins to change his mind about being a Crowe. A thing we have to remember is that we tend to assume the last version of their past our companions gave us is the truth, but in most cases, we have no actual way of verifying whether they've told the truth or not.

This doesn't jive with the Talisien encounter.  He seems almost surprised to see Zevran there.  He had been told Zev was there and had BETRAYED THE CROWS but didn't believe it until that point.

Sorry, Max, but you have no leg to stand on here.

Modifié par krylo, 28 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[sami jo]

I probably qualify as a Zev fangirl, but I can understand RPing a character who would not give the guy who just tried to assassinate him/her a second chance.  I can understand RPing a character who would be suspicious of  him even if the PC did give him a chance. 

What I don't understand is players who don't spend any time at all trying to get to know the character of Zev and are then shocked that he will betray you.  Every one of your companions can be pushed into betraying you.  Why would the assassin be any different?  Why should he be loyal to a GW who has done nothing to earn his loyalty?  It really doesn't take much to earn it, and it doesn't require romancing him.

I also don't understand players who go off on how the "gay elf" hit on them.  I can't count the number of times I have read a post going on about how many sex partners he has had and how he liked killing, that then goes on to talk about how much better Lelianna is.  The bard who used sex to seduce and kill men and admits to liking it.  Much different from Zev... 

There are plenty of players who adore or hate all of the characters.  The ninja romance glitch with Lel makes her a lot less likeable for anyone not planning to romance her, though I am entirely clear that it's not what the writers intended.  It puts a very different spin on her character.  There are plenty of threads swooning or slashing all of the characters.  What you don't find is a hate thread for Lelianna entitled "The lesbo bard betrayed me!"  You can find the "The gay elf betrayed me!" thread, in which the OP claimed his hatred of the character was because the character flirted (easy to turn off, just say you aren't interested politely and there isn't even a drop in approval), and he liked killing, then went on to say how nifty Lelianna was.  Same traits, different gender, and that made it alright.  Another poster on that thread went on about how he had dropped Zev as soon as s/he found out the character "had ****** tendencies." 

Then there are the ones who feel perfectly comfortable calling Zev a rapist, but the exact same behavior from Lel isn't rape.   

There is plenty to like and dislike about all of the characters, and I think it is a huge credit to the writers that they are so deep.  I find the Lel is wonderful but Zev is the devil incarnate line very strange.  Players are either not listening to what the characters say and do, or are holding them to a different standard. 

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

But what if Zevran is lying when he takes an oath to serve you and is really just biding his time until he has an opportunity to turn on you and claim his reward?

He will tell you that there are poisons to which he is immune which could kill you.  If he really wanted to kill the Warden, would he try it the same way he failed the first time?  Especially after seeing what the Wardens can do?  If he leaves you to fight Taliesin alone, he'll tell you afterwards that it was not you he was leaving to your fate, but Taliesin to his, because he knew what the outcome would be.

Consider that he has no more expectation of his 2nd attempt succeeding than his 1st.  At that point, it does not matter to him.  He cannot see another life than going back to the Crows, and whether he does that or dies, I think it doesn't matter a lot to him at that point.

But of course, my opinion is meaningless because I don't know Zevran the way the fangirls do. Unlike every other character in the game, there's only one correct way to see him.

Facetiousness is so unattractive.  But I do agree that Zevran inspires a passionate response, one way or another.

[DalishRanger]

sami jo wrote...
Players are either not listening to what the characters say and do, or are holding them to a different standard. 

That is exactly what people are doing (at least, in the circumstances you were describing). As I said in my first post, men and women are often held up to double standards. Sometimes those standards lean in favor of men, sometimes women.

Personally, I don't consider Zevran a rapist - or Leliana for that matter. However, I think
he's being called on it more simply because he is a man. Doesn't make
it right or fair, but that's how people tend to see things,
unfortunately.

Is it possible to like one and not the other - sure. But to do so fairly requires looking at their differences rather than their similarities. But comdemning one for sins the other is guilty of, and then raising up the other for it, is rather shortsighted and silly.

[Nonvita]

DalishRanger wrote...

Personally, I don't consider Zevran a rapist - or Leliana for that matter. However, I think
he's being called on it more simply because he is a man. Doesn't make
it right or fair, but that's how people tend to see things,
unfortunately.

Not just that, but they are holding him more to it because in his case the victims are women. There is a tendency to assume that because Leliana's victims were men that somehow it was enjoyable and they wanted it, while because Zevran's victims were women (in the cases that are discussed, funny how no one brings up his male victims), they are assumed to be helpless and in distress. It's not just Leliana and Zevran being steretyped based on gender but all parties involved. And that's a disservice to both men and women.

As a teacher of mine once said, claiming that "If women ruled the world there would be no fighting," is a great disservice to women, because it ignores the fact that women are not all the same, just as men are not all the same.

The characters have to be examined independently of their gender, both for their faults and their saving graces. They cannot simply be categorized by their gender, because they both far deeper than gender stereotypes could ever convey.

[Gilsa]

sami jo wrote...

What I don't understand is players who don't spend any time at all trying to get to know the character of Zev and are then shocked that he will betray you.  Every one of your companions can be pushed into betraying you.  Why would the assassin be any different?  Why should he be loyal to a GW who has done nothing to earn his loyalty?  It really doesn't take much to earn it, and it doesn't require romancing him.

It would probably make more sense if all the companions were like this, that they leave if you don't put any effort into them. IMO, either Zevran should be coded to have his own moment of crisis to be consistent with the other NPCs or all of them should require at least 30+ approval to be effective. It's possible to park everyone at camp and not ever talk to them or give them gifts without any real consequences. Zevran is the exception to the rule, which can take some people by surprise since they can stick with the same group for the most part as they advance in the game. It's a nasty shock which will color their views on the character.

[sami jo]

Gilsa wrote...
]It would probably make more sense if all the companions were like this, that they leave if you don't put any effort into them. IMO, either Zevran should be coded to have his own moment of crisis to be consistent with the other NPCs or all of them should require at least 30+ approval to be effective. It's possible to park everyone at camp and not ever talk to them or give them gifts without any real consequences. Zevran is the exception to the rule, which can take some people by surprise since they can stick with the same group for the most part as they advance in the game. It's a nasty shock which will color their views on the character.

The other characters all have their own reasons for wanting to fight the blight.  They will all bail on you under certain circumstances, but they all "volunteered" in one way or another because they have a vested interest in stopping the blight, and so their attachment is to the fight itself, not to the PC.  Zev made an oath to the PC, and believes that oath implies a certain level of commitment from the PC (ask him to leave for the dialogue).  He will come to appreciate the mission if the PC talks to him enough, but it isn't his fight at the beginning, and certainly isn't a fight he would have picked up on his own.  He is different from the other NPCs in that regard.