766 réponses à ce sujet

[Nonvita]

Gilsa wrote...

It would probably make more sense if all the companions were like this, that they leave if you don't put any effort into them. IMO, either Zevran should be coded to have his own moment of crisis to be consistent with the other NPCs or all of them should require at least 30+ approval to be effective. It's possible to park everyone at camp and not ever talk to them or give them gifts without any real consequences. Zevran is the exception to the rule, which can take some people by surprise since they can stick with the same group for the most part as they advance in the game. It's a nasty shock which will color their views on the character.

That is true, but then again Zevran is the only companion who joins your group after trying to kill you. Also, you know he's an assassin from the start, so who wouldn't be suspicious that he might try something again? If you're going to risk things by bringing him with you, it seems like you'd go out of your way to make sure he stays loyal instead of just assuming everything's cool, right? Turning your back to an assassin seems like a rather careless thing to do...

And you don't have to take him in your party to get his approval up. Just a couple gifts and conversations is plenty to get him up high enough so he won't betray you. If you can't be bothered to do that much, then you really have brought it on yourself when he turns against you.

[DalishRanger]

Nonvita wrote...
Not just that, but they are holding him more to it because in his case the victims are women. There is a tendency to assume that because Leliana's victims were men that somehow it was enjoyable and they wanted it, while because Zevran's victims were women (in the cases that are discussed, funny how no one brings up his male victims), they are assumed to be helpless and in distress. It's not just Leliana and Zevran being steretyped based on gender but all parties involved. And that's a disservice to both men and women.

Agreed, and I think that falls into my aforementioned double-standard bit - it applies to both the victims and the rogues.

[krylo]

Or maybe it's because Leliana's victims weren't in any kind of duress at the time of the sex?

I mean we went over this like three times in the other thread. If you KNOW you're going to die you're going to be in a different frame of mind than if you don't, and thus less likely to be able to give MEANINGFUL consent.

Let's not forget that many of Leliana's seduced victims were probably women, too. After all she prefers them.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

Let's not forget that many of Leliana's seduced victims were probably women, too. After all she prefers them.

I don't get that at all -- her victims will be who she's been hired to kill.  She actually talks more about her victims being men than women.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

Let's not forget that many of Leliana's seduced victims were probably women, too. After all she prefers them.

I don't get that at all -- her victims will be who she's been hired to kill.  She actually talks more about her victims being men than women.

Was she told HOW to kill them?

Given the choice are you more likely to seduce people you would normally want to or people you aren't attracted to?

It doesn't matter either way.  Chances are she seduced both genders.  Just like Nonvita is assuming Zevran seduced male victims even though he only really talks about the females that I recall.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 12:40 .

[DalishRanger]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

Let's not forget that many of Leliana's seduced victims were probably women, too. After all she prefers them.

I don't get that at all -- her victims will be who she's been hired to kill.  She actually talks more about her victims being men than women.

This. In fact, I don't recall her ever mentioning her seduced targets being women. That doesn't mean they never were, of course, but from in-game conversations she specifies men as victims on at least one or two occasions. Her hired marks had little to do with her personal preferences. It was just business, even if she was trying to be as kind/gentle/whatever in her ways of spying and killing. Not to mention it sounds like her targets were assigned to her, not her choice. Zeveran's much in the same boat in that regard. He could request jobs, but in the end, it was up to his superiors who he was sent after.

As for Leliana preferring women over men... Maybe I missed something (it is possible), but I never heard her say she prefers women. I think that's more personal interpretation. She's bisexual, so even if she prefers one gender over the other, in the long run she's attracted to both and I don't see it affecting her type of targets.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

[Gilsa]

Nonvita wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

It would probably make more sense if all the companions were like this, that they leave if you don't put any effort into them. IMO, either Zevran should be coded to have his own moment of crisis to be consistent with the other NPCs or all of them should require at least 30+ approval to be effective. It's possible to park everyone at camp and not ever talk to them or give them gifts without any real consequences. Zevran is the exception to the rule, which can take some people by surprise since they can stick with the same group for the most part as they advance in the game. It's a nasty shock which will color their views on the character.

That is true, but then again Zevran is the only companion who joins your group after trying to kill you. Also, you know he's an assassin from the start, so who wouldn't be suspicious that he might try something again? If you're going to risk things by bringing him with you, it seems like you'd go out of your way to make sure he stays loyal instead of just assuming everything's cool, right? Turning your back to an assassin seems like a rather careless thing to do...

And you don't have to take him in your party to get his approval up. Just a couple gifts and conversations is plenty to get him up high enough so he won't betray you. If you can't be bothered to do that much, then you really have brought it on yourself when he turns against you.

Aye, people either put more effort from then on or just start killing him off. I've seen people get mad about Sten challenging them for leadership of the group. I don't really consider the averse reactions any different than those who get a nasty shock from the Alistair romance. Some people start bragging about their Alistair-hate playthroughs in which they delight in finding every possible way to ****** him off. Different strokes for different folks. Just don't let other people's games get to you unless they've found a way to break into your house and play from your computer. =p

(I absolutely do understand and agree with your point, btw.)

[Trefalen]

Sabriana wrote...

Ok. I'm a rabid Zevran fan-girl, and I am getting very tired of having to defend him to the homophobics and the one's who can't see their own thoughts in front of their eyes.

Leliana is a bard. She grew up in a wealthy household. She was never tortured or abused. She was not a slave her entire life. She choose to become a bard, and would do any- and everything to please the woman she loved.

She is very enthusiastic about her chosen life-style. She describes how she loved the 'hunt', the 'seduction' and the 'killing' of men.

She lived that way because she chose it. Not because she was a slave. Not because she had no other choice. She lies to the PC from the beginning on. No one forced her into anything. She fell for a woman, and did anything to please her. Unlike Zevran, she describes torture as being a factor.

After meeting Majorlaine, she describes how much she loved her life-style. Unlike Zevran, who reveals that he regrets many things, she practically gushes about her joy about being a bard. Why is it forgiveable to her, but Zevran gets condemned? I really would like some input here, thank you.

As the game said.. "all heroes are not pure". As for Zevran, he shows remorse in glimpses, even admits at least one pang of regret for one of his victims (to the guardian in the guantlet). He is vilanized for his dual preference (imho) because he openly boasts his liking of the assassin lifestyle. Denial at it's finiest in my mind. That said for those having a problem accepting him as a positive character, try this.

Watch Torchwood and see how you feel about Capt. Jack. He is openly bi as it were, actually he is try-sexual, he's game for anything. Yet he is accepted by most as the clear hero, because they have the fall back of "Well he's an alien". Zev talks about not having a choice of preference in the crows. No doubt he was abused early in life, coupled with growing up in a brothel. The two would seem to be very helpful in giving your view of normalcy a slant as it were.

My two cents, I hate labels or peoples need for them.

Modifié par Trefalen, 01 mars 2010 - 12:48 .

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

Was she told HOW to kill them?

Given the choice are you more likely to seduce people you would normally want to or people you aren't attracted to?

It doesn't matter either way.  Chances are she seduced both genders.  Just like Nonvita is assuming Zevran seduced male victims even though he only really talks about the females that I recall.

He talks about at least one male.  You won't see that story unless you're romancing him, though.

Edit: This was his first target, and it's prominent in the romance story arc.  Probably irrelevant to the discussion as well.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Or maybe it's because Leliana's victims weren't in any kind of duress at the time of the sex?

I mean we went over this like three times in the other thread. If you KNOW you're going to die you're going to be in a different frame of mind than if you don't, and thus less likely to be able to give MEANINGFUL consent.

Let's not forget that many of Leliana's seduced victims were probably women, too. After all she prefers them.

And once again, we know nothing about the mental state of their victims. It is all based on speculation. You assume that Leliana's victims didn't know she would kill them, despite the fact that Bards are well known to be spies and assassins in Orlais. And people continue to assume the women Zevran slept with were distressed despite evidence they were already manipulative seductresses who knew they had it coming. The men he slept with probably knew he was there to kill him, too, yet people only think about and feel sorry for the females.

The conclusions people draw do tend to stem from gender assumptions, both in regards to the victims and the assassins themselves.

Edit: And as ejoslin said, I'm not basing my talk about male victims on speculation. I base what I'm saying on what is there in the conversations. Zevran's earring that he gives to romanced characters comes from his first kill- a male who he had sex with before killing.

Modifié par Nonvita, 01 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[krylo]

Of course you're missing the point entirely, anyway.



Which is that Zevran being like "I'ma kill you" and then women being like "ORrrrr we could have sex!" is a much bigger gray area as far as CONSENT goes, than is "Hey there big boy... wanna come back to my place for a shag?" "Well, of course I would beautiful lady."



There's nothing even coming close to a double standard UNLESS you want to accuse the writing staff of it, or society in general--because a female character would, of course, never be seduced by a male mark as an attempt to getting out of murder. Women don't want sex enough to fall for that, obviously, and men are too strong and virile to be forced to bend to such low tactics to avoid their assassination. THEY'D just fight their way out.



However, viewing two entirely different sexual situations as entirely different is, in no way, a double standard.

[krylo]

Nonvita wrote...

And once again, we know nothing about the mental state of their victims. It is all based on speculation. You assume that Leliana's victims didn't know she would kill them, despite the fact that Bards are well known to be spies and assassins in Orlais.

And any bard who was KNOWN to be a bard had already failed for just this reason.

Zevran was 'The Professional'.

Leliana was James Bond or Arnie from True Lies.

When James Bond is infilitrating an enemy headquarters and gets made he has failed at his mission.

The men he slept with probably knew he was there to kill him, too, yet people only think about and feel sorry for the females.

What men?

When does he ever mention being seduced by a male mark?

The conclusions people draw do tend to stem from gender assumptions, both in regards to the victims and the assassins themselves.

Maybe some people, but as one of about three proponents of the "Hey, maybe this wasn't such a great thing for Zevran to do with these women" view point, I can pretty definitively say that, no, that's not where that idea came from.

Edit: You edited while I was posting:  I never got his earring.

For some reason.

Or don't remember it, at least.

Either way, the only reason I didn't argue for that man as well is because I didn't know about him.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 12:52 .

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Of course you're missing the point entirely, anyway.

Which is that Zevran being like "I'ma kill you" and then women being like "ORrrrr we could have sex!" is a much bigger gray area as far as CONSENT goes, than is "Hey there big boy... wanna come back to my place for a shag?" "Well, of course I would beautiful lady."

There's nothing even coming close to a double standard UNLESS you want to accuse the writing staff of it, or society in general--because a female character would, of course, never be seduced by a male mark as an attempt to getting out of murder. Women don't want sex enough to fall for that, obviously, and men are too strong and virile to be forced to bend to such low tactics to avoid their assassination. THEY'D just fight their way out.

However, viewing two entirely different sexual situations as entirely different is, in no way, a double standard.

And you're missing my point- that the evidence throughout the entire conversation with Zevran about the mage points to her being in no state of mental distress. But you continue to argue it because it's assumed that women must feel helpless in those situations. Once again, the mage knew an assassin would come for her. I doubt Zevran ever even told her he was there to kill her. She knew it and she tried to take advantage of the situation. And once again, it's not like Zevran just popped out of nowhere like "I'M GONNA KEEL YOU," he was sent to kill her because she had already knowingly put herself in a position to be targeted. Nothing points to her being so naive as to not understand her life would be put in danger, so if she were so afraid of death then why did she get involved in any of that stuff in the first place?

Furthermore, what about the male mark he got the earring from? Do you really think people would get so incensed about Zevran having sex with him? Quite honestly I don't think any of this would have come up if Zevran's victims were all male, but because they were female it turns into rape or, at the least, something non-consensual.

And claiming that Leliana's victims had no idea she was an assassin seems pretty silly. If even our Ferelden born and raised PCs can have some notion that Bard in Orlais = assassin, you'd think the people living in Orlais would definitely understand that fact. Especially since most of Leliana's victims seem to have been nobility, they would have known how the game is played.

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...


What men?

When does he ever mention being seduced by a male mark?

*I* answered this already, and I'll answer again.  His first mark was a man.  Killed while wearing nothing but a single, jeweled earring.  Which he gives to the warden, if romanced.

Edit: He also makes a reference to seducing men in his work as a Crow in another romance conversation.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[krylo]

Nonvita wrote...

And you're missing my point- that the evidence throughout the entire conversation with Zevran about the mage points to her being in no state of mental distress. But you continue to argue it because it's assumed that women must feel helpless in those situations

Of COURSE only a WOMAN would be terrified for her life when facing down a skilled assassin.  I MUST CLEARLY BE SEXIST.  There's no way I might just think that anyone facing down a skilled assassin might be terrified for their life.  Nope.  Only women.

Nothing points to her being so naive as to not understand her life would be put in danger, so if she were so afraid of death then why did she get involved in any of that stuff in the first place?

You're absolutely right.  Everyone who has ever been assassinated, or has had attempted assassinations made upon them, OBVIOUSLY has no fear of death.   Why I'm sure JFK was suicidal.

Why else would he put himself in a situation where someone might want him dead?

Quite honestly I don't think any of this would have come up if Zevran's victims were all male, but because they were female it turns into rape or, at the least, something non-consensual.

Maybe not as I didn't start the thread that got it going, however, I already responded to this.

I don't remember the earring/story behind it, and was unaware he canonically raped a man too. 

You know, other than the other thread having dissolved into, "Ok, fine, his victims were pretty in control of themselves at the time, thanks, Dave, for clearing that up."

And claiming that Leliana's victims had no idea she was an assassin seems pretty silly. If even our Ferelden born and raised PCs can have some notion that Bard in Orlais = assassin, you'd think the people living in Orlais would definitely understand that fact. Especially since most of Leliana's victims seem to have been nobility, they would have known how the game is played.

Yes, and I'm sure she introduced herself as one to all her marks.

Just like deep cover CIA operatives always greet terroist cell leaders with "Hi, I'm Jack Johnson of the CIA and I'll be your government plant for this evening."

That is a thing which happens.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 01:11 .

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: He also makes a reference to seducing men in his work as a Crow in another romance conversation.

Are you speaking of when he said they wanted men of flexible sexual orientation?

I haven't really played the game since it came up until just recently, and I kind of killed Zevran off my last game just because I hadn't before.  I felt pretty bad about it, but I was pretty enamored with Alistair by that point and already a DW rogue, so not bad enough to reload.

Point is my memory is foggy on many specifics, and the Wiki's Zev Dialogue isn't all inclusive by any means (someone should go fix that).  But I don't see why I'm being blamed and being called sexist for not bringing up the men he may/may not have had questionable sex with, when no one else did?


But while I'm responding to your edit: 

Nonvita wrote...

But you continue to argue it because it's assumed that women must feel helpless in those situations.

Actually, I quit arguing that last night, after Gaider finally said something that made it clear the people who seduced Zevran were thinking clearly.

Maybe you didn't notice?

You and Dalish, however, have decided to backhandedly call me sexist, what, three?  Four?  Five times?  I decided it was about time to defend myself.  I'll let things slide a few times, because, well, I don't really care.  But if people are going to have an entire discussion about how I'm some kind of sexist monster behind my back for, of all the things to call me one about, being unhappy about possible rape?  

Well, yes, I'm eventually going to defend myself.

You two are the ones still discussing it.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 01:28 .

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: He also makes a reference to seducing men in his work as a Crow in another romance conversation.

Are you speaking of when he said they wanted men of flexible sexual orientation?

It's a bit different in the FemWarden version, but yes, that conversation.  Also, you cut it out, but he specifically said that his first mark was a male whom was wearing a single earring.

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: He also makes a reference to seducing men in his work as a Crow in another romance conversation.

Are you speaking of when he said they wanted men of flexible sexual orientation?

It's a bit different in the FemWarden version, but yes, that conversation.  Also, you cut it out, but he specifically said that his first mark was a male whom was wearing a single earring.

I cut that out 'cause I responded to that point in two posts with the whole I didn't know/remember that.

[DalishRanger]

krylo wrote...

You and Dalish, however, have decided to backhandedly call me sexist, what, three?  Four?  Five times?  I decided it was about time to defend myself.  I'll let things slide a few times, because, well, I don't really care.  But if people are going to have an entire discussion about how I'm some kind of sexist monster behind my back for, of all the things to call me one about, being unhappy about possible rape?  

Well, yes, I'm eventually going to defend myself.

You two are the ones still discussing it.

Sigh. I never called you sexist, backhanded or otherwise. I also never attacked you personally. Please don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was that most everyone is formed by their biases and social constructs, and that includes double standards in regards to gender. EVERYONE. Male or female. That includes ME. Said biases can color how we precieve the circumstances of Leliana and Zevran and how many are willing to give Leliana more leeway than Zevran. That is ALL I said. If you somehow interpreted that as a personal attack, well... I'm sorry, but I can't really help how you interpret my text.

[krylo]

DalishRanger wrote...
If you somehow interpreted that as a personal attack, well... I'm sorry, but I can't really help how you interpret my text.

I interpretted it as such because you/nonvita were using the "Zev as a rapist" thing as proof of this double standard.

And, well, go read that thread.

Tell me how many people defended that position who weren't me?  Two?  How many who weren't me posted more than once to defend that position?   One?

Edit: And I don't give Leliana more leeway than Zev.  In fact, I never finished out Leliana's romance.  She creeps me out.

Edit two: And there's the other person who posted more than once in defense of said position now.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 01:37 .

[Monica21]

I wish I had something to add that I hadn't already stated before or said better by krylo, but at this point, all I can do is lol at krylo "Why I'm sure JFK was suicidal" and wonder in amazement at the impossibly broad assumptions Nonvita is making.

[DalishRanger]

Well, it wasn't meant as an attack at all, sorry you took it that way. /:

I never said you did. I never targeted anyone specifically in my statements unless directly quoting them. I was speaking in very general terms, in regards to the fanbase as a whole - not just that one topic or the exceptions to the statement. I only brought the rape issue up at all because this thread is loosely connected with that one.

Edit: Stupid forum and its doubling of \\ signs. Sigh.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[Monica21]

DalishRanger wrote...
I only brought the rape issue up at all because this thread is loosely connected with that one.

No, this thread only exists because of the other thread. Nothing "loose" about it.

[DalishRanger]

More reason to use the rape thing as an example, but personal attacks were never the intent behind my posts. That is all I'm saying to krylo.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 01:51 .

[krylo]

DalishRanger wrote...

Well, it wasn't meant as an attack at all, sorry you took it that way. /:

I never said you did. I never targeted anyone specifically in my statements unless directly quoting them. I was speaking in very general terms, in regards to the fanbase as a whole - not just that one topic or the exceptions to the statement. I only brought the rape issue up at all because this thread is loosely connected with that one.

Edit: Stupid forum and its doubling of \\\\ signs. Sigh.

Well, apology accepted.

Though, I do still feel that I should point out that when you use a specific opinion held by specific people as proof that a sexist double standard exists amongst the fanbase, the people who hold that specific opinion (or HELD as the case may be), are probably going to take it personally.