766 réponses à ce sujet

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Actually, I quit arguing that last night, after Gaider finally said something that made it clear the people who seduced Zevran were thinking clearly.

Maybe you didn't notice?

You and Dalish, however, have decided to backhandedly call me sexist, what, three?  Four?  Five times?  I decided it was about time to defend myself.  I'll let things slide a few times, because, well, I don't really care.  But if people are going to have an entire discussion about how I'm some kind of sexist monster behind my back for, of all the things to call me one about, being unhappy about possible rape?  

Well, yes, I'm eventually going to defend myself.

You two are the ones still discussing it.

I misused the word "you" once, and I apologize for that. However, for the most part I was discussing the general view of the situations, as you can see in my previous posts. And in general, yes, I think there's a lot of bias based on the genders of the victims, whether it is intentional or not. That is what my posts were addressing. It was you who chose to respond to my posts as though they were targeted at you, which is why I in turn became defensive.

My qualm with your argument is that all the evidence suggests the mage was not in distress at the time. We know that she was a mage using sex to meddle in politics. Saying that she only used sex with Zevran because she was afraid for her life is, I feel, not in line with the character presented. I've never argued that Zevran did nothing wrong; however, I feel that it alters the understanding of Antivan society to discredit the manipulative and cunning nature of the people in it. The stories presented are, in part, to show the complicated web that exists in Antivan society, and to show that there is some truth in Zevran's statement, "Some people simply need assassinating." Playing the victim game removes the intrigue that is supposed to come with realizing that Zevran's victims used him as much as he used them. There is a double game going on, and ignoring half the game simply because generalities somehow dictate that all people react the same way in certain situations serves no purpose.

Monica21 wrote...

I wish I had something to add that I
hadn't already stated before or said better by krylo, but at this
point, all I can do is lol at krylo "Why I'm sure JFK was suicidal" and
wonder in amazement at the impossibly broad assumptions Nonvita is
making.

I make impossibly broad generalizations... Hmm, that's funny...

Modifié par Nonvita, 01 mars 2010 - 01:52 .

[DalishRanger]

krylo wrote...
Though, I do still feel that I should point out that when you use a specific opinion held by specific people as proof that a sexist double standard exists amongst the fanbase, the people who hold that specific opinion (or HELD as the case may be), are probably going to take it personally.

Point.

Though this situation actually just proves my earlier point that text is so easy to misinterpret online, and why flame wars start. It's one of the reasons I avoid these kinds of threads normally. Debate and compare/constrasting opinions and interpretations devolve into arguements, insults, assumptions and name calling. Sigh. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 01:52 .

[krylo]

Nonvita wrote...

And in general, yes, I think there's a lot of bias based on the genders of the victims, whether it is intentional or not.

And I won't argue that.

In fact I think a lot of the people that don't like Zevran ARE homophobic, to be perfectly blunt.  I don't think this because of specific arguments so much as thread titles like have been mentioned before.  "That gay elf tried to kill me!" and what not.

If it weren't homophobia driving at least a PORTION of the hate, one would just say, "That assassin elf!" or "That elf!" or maybe "That goddamn elf!"  There'd be no reason to include his sexual preferences.

I merely take offense to my argument, which was removed from both homophobia/sexism, and a hatred of Zevran (as that I originally formulated it as a 'he was unable to empathize with the people he slept with, and this is why he is redeemable') being compared to... those... things... pretending to be people.

My qualm with your argument is that all the evidence suggests the mage was not in distress at the time. We know that she was a mage using sex to meddle in politics.

Until Gaider spoke on the matter I would suggest there's no evidence either way,  Using sex to your advantage in the world of business/politics doesn't make you immune to rape, no matter how often "She was obviously a ****" comes up at rape trials.

And what of the boy and the earring?  What was his story?

Did he use sex to meddle in politics as well?  Did he give Zevran the earring?  I'm honestly a bit curious.  I'm trying to play through again but I'm feeling a bit burnt on it so I don't know if I'll manage to refresh my memory on Zev.

Modifié par krylo, 01 mars 2010 - 02:00 .

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...
My qualm with your argument is that all the evidence suggests the mage was not in distress at the time. We know that she was a mage using sex to meddle in politics. Saying that she only used sex with Zevran because she was afraid for her life is, I feel, not in line with the character presented. I've never argued that Zevran did nothing wrong; however, I feel that it alters the understanding of Antivan society to discredit the manipulative and cunning nature of the people in it. The stories presented are, in part, to show the complicated web that exists in Antivan society, and to show that there is some truth in Zevran's statement, "Some people simply need assassinating." Playing the victim game removes the intrigue that is supposed to come with realizing that Zevran's victims used him as much as he used them. There is a double game going on, and ignoring half the game simply because generalities somehow dictate that all people react the same way in certain situations serves no purpose.

There is no evidence of the mage's state of mind, because there's no mage. Dead, remember? We can't ask her. We only have Zevran's story and he's hardly impartial. And as for thinking that it's out of character for her to use sex because she was afraid, um, that's pretty much what happened. He joined her in her carriage and they rode off into the sunset. Then she tripped and died. The point is that if she didn't use sex because she was afraid, it was the only way she was going to stay alive. Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

Nonvita wrote...I make impossibly broad generalizations... Hmm, that's funny...

Yeah, I really liked the "they had it coming" one. Brilliant.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 mars 2010 - 02:05 .

[krylo]

Monica21 wrote...
Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

And I STILL think she was a crappy mage!

Where was her cone of cold?

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

And I STILL think she was a crappy mage!

Where was her cone of cold?

I know, right? Was she "oh crap, I'm out of mana, I guess sex will have to do."

[krylo]

Monica21 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

And I STILL think she was a crappy mage!

Where was her cone of cold?

I know, right? Was she "oh crap, I'm out of mana, I guess sex will have to do."

She was hoping there was lyrium infused in his s... actually, maybe that's going too far?

Yeah, probably going too far.

[Nonvita]

Monica21 wrote...

There is no evidence of the mage's state of mind, because there's no mage. Dead, remember? We can't ask her. We only have Zevran's story and he's hardly impartial. And as for thinking that it's out of character for her to use sex because she was afraid, um, that's pretty much what happened. He joined her in her carriage and they rode off into the sunset. Then she tripped and died. The point is that if she didn't use sex because she was afraid, it was the only way she was going to stay alive. Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

So once again you ignore all the evidence in the story to the contrary. Try telling Zevran, "So you used her?" and see what he says. The mage wasn't as innocent as you think, and trying to make her be that way is changing the whole point of the story. The story was obviously meant to show that she was manipulating Zevran- it was a point of realization for him in his assassin career and an illustration of why he lost another piece of his sympathy for others. He would have shown her mercy had she not ended up killing herself, but as it turned out anyway she was just using him.

Yeah, I really liked the "they had it coming" one. Brilliant.

And I love the "Despite the lack of evidence and the person who wrote the story saying otherwise, they MUST have been in distress because everyone in said situation reacts exactly the same!"

krylo wrote...

And I STILL think she was a crappy mage!

Where was her cone of cold?

It's all about Forcefield. Or Crushing Prison, I think Zevran might have found that one pleasurable somehow...

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Even Gaider said "it was the only weapon she had."

And I STILL think she was a crappy mage!

Where was her cone of cold?

I know, right? Was she "oh crap, I'm out of mana, I guess sex will have to do."

She was hoping there was lyrium infused in his s... actually, maybe that's going too far?

Yeah, probably going too far.

Well, I laughed, so not too far for me.

[krylo]

Nonvita wrote...

It's all about Forcefield. Or Crushing Prison, I think Zevran might have found that one pleasurable somehow...

Also good choices!

Though she could only run with forcefield.  Couldn't really fight back.

Hmm... I wonder if more 'localized' forcefields might have been used for 'fun'?

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

It's all about Forcefield. Or Crushing Prison, I think Zevran might have found that one pleasurable somehow...

Also good choices!

Though she could only run with forcefield.  Couldn't really fight back.

Hmm... I wonder if more 'localized' forcefields might have been used for 'fun'?

I was actually thinking the same thing myself... I guess we're not so different, afterall!

[DalishRanger]

Heh, I've had discussions before on the more... creative uses of magic. Fun times!

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[Cuddlezarro]

DalishRanger wrote...

Heh, I've had discussions before on the more... creative uses of magic. Fun times!

heh I wouldent mind letting the guy in your avatar do some of those "creative" uses of magic on me

*is tar and feathered*

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...

Try telling Zevran, "So you used her?" and see what he says. The mage wasn't as innocent as you think, and trying to make her be that way is changing the whole point of the story. The story was obviously meant to show that she was manipulating Zevran- it was a point of realization for him in his assassin career and an illustration of why he lost another piece of his sympathy for others. He would have shown her mercy had she not ended up killing herself, but as it turned out anyway she was just using him.

I made an honest effort to find it in the toolset but I can't and it will take me too long to get to it in-game. That should count for something, right?

That said, I don't us reaching an agreement on this. Want to hug it out, or shake on it?

[DalishRanger]

Cuddlezarro wrote...
heh I wouldent mind letting the guy in your avatar do some of those "creative" uses of magic on me ../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png

*is tar and feathered*

... Funny thing is, aforementioned discussions led to me actually drawing a picture of him using his magic "creatively." On Leliana though, sorry.

Considering all the compliments Legam gets on his looks, I really should draw a gag picture related to it, as he would realistically look like this. Chubby boy he is.

Edit: I'm all for hugging as a form of agreeing to disagree. Shaking works too, though.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 02:44 .

[Cuddlezarro]

... Funny thing is, aforementioned discussions led to me actually drawing a picture of him using his magic "creatively." On Leliana though, sorry.

Damn you annoying french girl! *shakes fist menacingly at Leliena*

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 01 mars 2010 - 02:46 .

[sami jo]

Creative use of magic.



Zevran approves. +100

[DalishRanger]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

...
Funny thing is, aforementioned discussions led to me actually drawing a
picture of him using his magic "creatively." On Leliana though, sorry.

Damn you annoying french girl! *shakes fist menacingly at Leliena*

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] Sorry, she ensared his heart quite a while back, regardless of how others may think of her.

[RPGlover732]

TC, you paint leliana as a horrible person and talk about how zevran is upset about what he did. well leliana tells you shes scared of herself. she tells you she knows she likes doing al these bad things and she hates it, she calles herself a bad person and worries about doing bad things.

But do bad people worry about doing bad things? no they dont

[Cuddlezarro]

DalishRanger wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

...
Funny thing is, aforementioned discussions led to me actually drawing a
picture of him using his magic "creatively." On Leliana though, sorry.

Damn you annoying french girl! *shakes fist menacingly at Leliena*

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] Sorry, she ensared his heart quite a while back, regardless of how others may think of her.

as Zevran would say he needs to hop boarders along with Alistair! *glares at the annoying one jealously*

[DalishRanger]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

as Zevran would say he needs to hop boarders along with Alistair! *glares at the annoying one jealously*

Oh, he loves both Zevran and Alistair - just not in that way. He has no attraction to other men. Doesn't stop him from enjoying a good bromance, though.

[Cuddlezarro]

DalishRanger wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

as Zevran would say he needs to hop boarders along with Alistair! *glares at the annoying one jealously*

Oh, he loves both Zevran and Alistair - just not in that way. He has no attraction to other men. Doesn't stop him from enjoying a good bromance, though.

XDXDXDXD

[Nonvita]

Monica21 wrote...

I made an honest effort to find it in the toolset but I can't and it will take me too long to get to it in-game. That should count for something, right?

That said, I don't us reaching an agreement on this. Want to hug it out, or shake on it?

Ah, heated debates make enemies so quickly. It seems we have let our emotions get the best of us! I would give you a hug, but all this talk of assassins has made me a little suspicious... So take it as no offense if I offer you a sincere handshake and a "Jolly ho, good Ser, I say good show!"

On the other hand, if you want to get DR and krylos involved and make it a foursome, I'll freely let you invade my personal space...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Damn you annoying french girl! *shakes fist menacingly at Leliena*

Don't worry, I, too, was drooling over her avatar just last night and creeping her out with my apparent obsession with her characters... I'll join you on the fist shaking!

DalishRanger wrote...

... Funny thing is,
aforementioned discussions led to me actually drawing a picture of him
using his magic "creatively." On Leliana though, sorry.

Considering
all the compliments Legam gets on his looks, I really should draw a gag
picture related to it, as he would realistically look like this. Chubby boy he is.

*Sigh* I saw that picture. Lovely rendition, but you'll forgive me if I continue imagining him otherwise. Since he is already taken by Leliana, and I by Zevran/Alistair (depending), there is no harm in my feeling free to not give a darn who he actually is as a person! :innocent:

Modifié par Nonvita, 01 mars 2010 - 02:59 .

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...
Ah, heated debates make enemies so quickly. It seems we have let our emotions get the best of us! I would give you a hug, but all this talk of assassins has made me a little suspicious... So take it as no offense if I offer you a sincere handshake and a "Jolly ho, good Ser, I say good show!"

On the other hand, if you want to get DR and krylos involved and make it a foursome, I'll freely let you invade my personal space...

I'm far too squeamish to make a good assassin, plus, I'm a hugger!

Krylo and DR in a foursome sounds... unusually appealing.... :innocent:  Unless you're a G.I.R.L. (which I don't think you are) krylo's going to be a pretty busy guy.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[DalishRanger]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

XDXDXDXD

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie] I be a doofy girl with too much time on her hands.

Nonvita wrote...

On the other hand, if you want to get DR and krylos involved and make it a foursome, I'll freely let you invade my personal space...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie] Nonvita, you cad! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Nonvita wrote...
Don't worry, I, too, was drooling over her avatar just last night and creeping her out with my apparent obsession with her characters... I'll join you on the fist shaking!

I'm hardly creeped out. In fact, I'm vastly, vastly amused by Legam's growing fangirl/boy base/harem, considering his physique and overall hatred of attention from crowds.

Nonvita wrote...
*Sigh*
I saw that picture. Lovely rendition, but you'll forgive me if I continue imagining him otherwise. Since he is already taken by Leliana, and I by Zevran/Alistair (depending), there is no harm in my feeling free to not give a darn who he actually is as a person! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] I just can't realistically picture a man who spent most of his life in a tower sitting on his arse and reading books as being fit. You are forgiven, but I remain amused.

Edit:

Monica21 wrote...
Krylo and DR in a foursome sounds... unusually appealing.... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]  Unless you're a G.I.R.L. (which I don't think you are) krylo's going to be a pretty busy guy.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 03:05 .