766 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Nonvita wrote...Girls are better than boys. If you disagree with me, you're wrong and I hate you!

Women are better at what? Because I find men to be infinitely better at opening jars and changing tires than women are.

[DalishRanger]

Nonvita wrote...
Considering how the thread began, is this really such a bad thing?  Besides, that's all in the past... Hate-filled arguments have given way to peace and understanding. It's a beautiful thing, and I'm sure, somehow, Leliana had something to do with it...

Indeed. She is a master of the whole ninja-love thing, why not ninja-love a thread?

Nonvita wrote...
Girls are better than boys. If you disagree with me, you're wrong and I hate you!

But both have cooties! Is it not possible to recognize the faults of both and accept our differences?

Oh, to the Fade with it. Girls rule and boys drool!

[Maria Caliban]

Nonvita wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Not only is this thread now dominated by Zevran discussion, but I've now learned Zev is a rapist. Lovely.

Considering how the thread began, is this really such a bad thing?  Besides, that's all in the past... Hate-filled arguments have given way to peace and understanding. It's a beautiful thing, and I'm sure, somehow, Leliana had something to do with it...

No, I rather enjoyed talking about what a creepy and somewhat messed up gal Leliana is. There are already two threads about Zevran on the forum.

[Nonvita]

Monica21 wrote...

Women are better at what? Because I find men to be infinitely better at opening jars and changing tires than women are.

That's the stupidest argument EVAAAAAR! And you have no right to talk, because as a woman you're clearly biased!

(Feeling better now, krylo?)


And so Maria doesn't get mad at me:
Leliana

[Monica21]

Maria Caliban wrote...
No, I rather enjoyed talking about what a creepy and somewhat messed up gal Leliana is. There are already two threads about Zevran on the forum.

I honestly don't spend much time talking to her because of the ninja-love thing, but hey, if everyone else is game, then that's cool.

[DalishRanger]

Someone on DA's perception of Leliana.. Just for Maria.

[Maria Caliban]

Nonvita wrote...

And so Maria doesn't get mad at me:
Leliana

Dragon Age: What Flavor of Crazy Girlfriend Do You Want?

[DalishRanger]

I like 'em both, but I prefer the "mwahaha Princess Stabbitty, kill kill, kill kill" kind of crazy when it comes down to it.

[RangerSG]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Because I get the feeling you are saying this as a positive?

I'm describing the character as I see her. I like Leliana. I also like Hannibal Lector, a sociopathic cannibal. I find them interesting and well done.

That’s not to say that I find all their character traits innately positive.

She is your avatar, after all.

She’s a cute redhead.

Think of it this way: “We like people because of their virtues. We love people because of their flaws.”

I am a fan of the character, but this hardly means I consider her the perfect woman. Leliana is charming, and if I occasionally found her creepy (Lady covered in blood cheerfully telling me God sent her to help me) that only adds to the character.

Well stated throughout this discussion MC .

Generally I agree with you as well. I think the one point I disagree on with some people is that I think that the whole "I love the violence" discussion is really much more primal. She's responding to the part of human nature that's finds it exilerating to survive. The Chantry teaches her murdering is wrong. And of course it is. But she recognizes the thrill of the hunt. And like most "soldiers" the more you do it, the more you are programmed into it. Marj already started this path. The Chantry was beginning to "deprogram" her. But she knew that her skills were needed by the Warden.

Also note in this discussion: Whether you kill Marj or not is a PC choice--not hers. She goes along with it. If you don't kill her, the confusion doesn't manifest. By bringing those memories to the surface, your PC is bringing that conflict to a head. And Lel will rely on the Warden to provide a meaningful conclusion to it. And even if you kill Marj, she considers herself "slipping" unless the PC either pushes her to accept her old nature or reminds her why she joined. It isn't a matter of "Oh I love killing and I always have and I want to be a murderer." It's "Why am I doing this when I could have a much better life and I know it?"

I don't think Lel ever is saying, "Oh I wish I was an assassin still." That is, unless you harden her and turn her back to that life. But even then, she doesn't become cold-hearted. She just accepts she's a willing soldier.

And Lel is right, you like a character for their qualities. You love because of their flaws. I like both Lel and Zev. But I don't think they're as directly comparable as some make them.

[Fishy]

Aanorith wrote...

Zevran is awesome. I had my character go with Zev and I'm straight. Because.. he's awesome.

Done that too lol . My character's bi in most of my playthrough .. But the though of having sex IRl with another man ...

i admit though i once making out with a homosexual during a party but i was so drunk .. i don't remember much of what happenned.

But i guess that my young mistake and was discovering stuff

[asaiasai]

Dear OP,



I do not understand it myself, people trashing any of the characters. Everyone has thier favorites, and has a tendancy to start to think that thier own choices are the only ones anyone should adhere to. I think the biggest problem is that Zev and Leliana are both written as Bi characters which opens them up to derision from people who are insecure in thier own sexuality. It is similar to the debate that is raging in the ME2 forums concerning same sex romances in ME2, the "it is wrong for me, and as such my belief makes it wrong for you" people have this idea that thier beliefs trump everyone elses. I can not explain it i just try to accept that for me and alone i find female to female bisexuality sexy, it is my thing, and i will make no excuses for it. Now male to male bisexuality does nothing for me it is not my thing but i will never try and tell someone that because i do not like it that you can not have it, to each his own.



As has been said both characters are very complicated, it is this depth and complication that makes them as good as they are. I get into arguments all the time in the ME2 forums concerning which characters are better ME2 or DAO and i think it is because of the complicated nature of the DAO characters that makes DAO a more immersive experience. It is the contorversy of the writing that makes the complecation that mimics real life, this draws the player into the world at a much deeper level and this is why DAO is a far superior experience compared to ME2. I have 4 total ME characters and i think i have just about all there is to do and know about them in the 4 playthroughs. I have 9 DAO characters and i am currently working on number 10, compared to ME the magic of DAO is still there, so instead of hammering the characters be thankful that DAO has such depth because of the controversy the game continues to provide entertainment. I do not make any male characters in most games where i am given a choice so this means that for the 10 characters i have at current everyone of them has Leliana as a love interest, again that is my thing.



I do not think you will ever understand people who seem to think a "double standard" is acceptable, i think they do not understand it either, and it is this lack of self awareness that fuel this derision. To each his own is such a contrary idea to this type of person, so ingrained, it is a part of thier core of identity, and to question this identity is to question them. The insecurity becomes apparent in the shrillness of thier invective so much so that you can measure thier insecurity by the violence, whether it be physical or verbal, of thier reply. You can almost tell who is just one shot of whiskey away from being on thier knees in a ****** bath house or making a pass at a buddy it would be hilarious if not for the violence associated with this individuals insecurity. Best bet is to just ignore and walk away hopeing you do not get any of it on you.



Asai

[Nonvita]

Suprez30 wrote...

Done that too lol . My character's bi in most of my playthrough .. But the though of having sex IRl with another man ...

i admit though i once making out with a homosexual during a party but i was so drunk .. i don't remember much of what happenned.

But i guess that my young mistake and was discovering stuff

I'm so glad you clarified that. You, sir, are clearly a true man.

And here we were so close to getting the thread back on track...

Maria, your picture makes me want to tickle her like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.
DR, your picture makes me want to... do so many different things at once. I feel confused...

[Oak Tree Leaf]

DalishRanger wrote...

Someone on DA's perception of Leliana.. Just for Maria.

If you havn't gotten an internet cookie, you deserve one!

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Oak Tree Leaf wrote...

DalishRanger wrote...

Someone on DA's perception of Leliana.. Just for Maria.

If you havn't gotten an internet cookie, you deserve one!

Make that two cookies!

[DalishRanger]

Nonvita wrote...
DR, your picture makes me want to... do so many different things at once. I feel confused...

Blame Marvel Fan, the artist. xD

Edit: Apply this to DD too:

Oak Tree Leaf wrote...
If you havn't gotten an internet cookie, you deserve one! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

Again, target the actual artist of it for that. xD

... But I'll take the cookie anyway. Mm, cookie...

Modifié par DalishRanger, 01 mars 2010 - 05:16 .

[Sabriana]

Rofl. What silly people you all are. Those are some lovely drawings, though the stabbitiy one scares me.

In my plays, Majorlaine dies every time. I don't want her to come after Leliana again, and endanger my whole camp. I'd do the same for the Crows, but alas, it's a huge organization out of Antiva.

I think that's where my apprehension about Leliana started, because I must have unwittingly hardened her afterward. I'll never do that again, that wasn't a good thing. I'd rather have her ramble on about the Maker, endlessly, than have her turn back to the more bardish outlook.

And then, as Asai put so beautifully, came the whole double-standard. I usually just ignored all those threads/posts, but then the 'rapist' happened.

I agree, my orginal post was a bit heated, but the following ones didn't do much to calm the fires. My only intention was to make people think about the huge similarities between the two characters (even Leliana admits it), yet, one gets away with it, while the other one catches flak for it left and right.

Leliana had 2 years to follow her path of redemption, Zevran has to change over immediately or be a 'sleaze-ball'. I find that truly unfair. I really wanted people to explain to me why that is so. Is it because Leliana is a woman and therefore her bi-sexuality is 'hawt'? Is it because she ran to a chantry and became embroiled in the "maker" worship? Is it because she openly approves of good deeds?

Zevran also gives approval/disapproval for deeds, but it's mostly silently. He approves if the PC saves the kid in Honnleth. He approves if Soris is freed. He approves if the PC lies to the Sophia demon. He pleads for the life of the mages and the dalish. He disapproves if Vaughn is set free. He really disapproves if the PC takes Caladrius' side.

I admit, he flirts a lot, but so does Leliana. I did have to find out the hard way that shoes and hair are apparently flirt things. I'm glad it's not so in real life, or women all over the place would be in trouble

[errant_knight]

Um, I'm trying to stay out of this, but I have to note that, while there are jackasses everywhere, most people's difficulties with either the Zevran or Leiliana characters have little to do with their bisexuality and lots to do with them murdering people for fun and profit.



The notion that if you find those aspects of their characters to be a barrier, you must be a raging homophobe is entirely unfair.

[asaiasai]

errant_knight wrote...

Um, I'm trying to stay out of this, but I have to note that, while there are jackasses everywhere, most people's difficulties with either the Zevran or Leiliana characters have little to do with their bisexuality and lots to do with them murdering people for fun and profit.

The notion that if you find those aspects of their characters to be a barrier, you must be a raging homophobe is entirely unfair.

I am not trying to single you out, but i would like to point out that in game your character's hands are not entirely clean. You are given, and be thankful for that, gotta love Bioware, the choice in how several situations are resolved. Haven is butchered at your hands, granted they started it but the village dies, and your responsible. The Dalish/Werewolves situation is resolved in one of three ways. You would have to be extremely niave not to know that no matter who you pick to be king in Oz the other one will die, either by the new kings hand or your own. The tower, Earl Eamon's son, the landsmeet all of these things share one thing in common, you are doing someone's dirty work. This is no different than the position that Zev and Leliana were in, they were also doing someone's dirty work. The world needs its butchers to feed or protect and now Zev and Leliana work for you, The Butcher of  Feraldin, as someone who truly should understand the stakes, failure is not an option. Just because they call you a Grey Warden as opposed to The Butcher of Feraldin does not mean that the titles and the jobs are any diferent, the culling of the herd has begun. This whole story goes so deep and works on so many levels, that if people really understood it, something as insignifigant as the orientation of 2 individual characters is really irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, and it is by thier own actions that they call attention to themselves by complaining about that insignifigant detail. As they are options that the player has to choose to scream about them is akin to slapping a sticker on your chest that says, "Hello my name is XXXXXX and i am a homophobe". We are not labeling you, you are labeling you,  we are just pointing it out, and just like the depth of the story some people will miss it. 

Asai 

[Xandurpein]

I like both characters very much. Certainly it made think both once and twice when a guy who just tried to kill me, then tries to smooth talk me into letting me join him, but... it's a game.



I am willing to bet that the majority of those who prefer one over the other go by their own sexual preferences, rather than any deep moral reasons.

[DalishRanger]

Xandurpein wrote...
I am willing to bet that the majority of those who prefer one over the other go by their own sexual preferences, rather than any deep moral reasons.

Perhaps. I'd be the exception to that though, as I prefer Leliana and I'm a heterosexual female who plays male characters. But I'm weird like that.

[errant_knight]

asaiasai wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Um, I'm trying to stay out of this, but I have to note that, while there are jackasses everywhere, most people's difficulties with either the Zevran or Leiliana characters have little to do with their bisexuality and lots to do with them murdering people for fun and profit.

The notion that if you find those aspects of their characters to be a barrier, you must be a raging homophobe is entirely unfair.

I am not trying to single you out, but i would like to point out that in game your character's hands are not entirely clean. You are given, and be thankful for that, gotta love Bioware, the choice in how several situations are resolved.

Haven is butchered at your hands, granted they started it but the village dies, and your responsible. 

The Dalish/Werewolves situation is resolved in one of three ways.

You would have to be extremely niave not to know that no matter who you pick to be king in Oz the other one will die, either by the new kings hand or your own.

The tower, Earl Eamon's son, the landsmeet all of these things share one thing in common, you are doing someone's dirty work.

This is no different than the position that Zev and Leliana were in, they were also doing someone's dirty work. The world needs its butchers to feed or protect and now Zev and Leliana work for you, The Butcher of  Feraldin, as someone who truly should understand the stakes, failure is not an option.

Just because they call you a Grey Warden as opposed to The Butcher of Feraldin does not mean that the titles and the jobs are any diferent, the culling of the herd has begun. 

This whole story goes so deep and works on so many levels, that if people really understood it, something as insignifigant as the orientation of 2 individual characters is really irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, and it is by thier own actions that they call attention to themselves by complaining about that insignifigant detail.

As they are options that the player has to choose to scream about them is akin to slapping a sticker on your chest that says, "Hello my name is XXXXXX and i am a homophobe". We are not labeling you, you are labeling you,  we are just pointing it out, and just like the depth of the story some people will miss it. 

Asai 

Er, what?
Okay, just a sec.... Let me put some paragraph breaks in so I can suss out why you're calling me the butcher of fereldan and a homophobe.....

Right. Got it now. Well, first off, we see the game choices and I dare say, life, entirely differently. Your way kind of scares me, frankly.

Second, where are you seeing people complaining about orientation? It's not in this thread, that I've seen, and it's not in the Zevran thread either. No one is concerned with their orientation except for the occasional troll who passes through, and I haven't seen any of that in these threads.

Your last two paragraphs, well, the bits I made into a paragraph, are simply baffling. It takes a certain amount of brass to say that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the story doesn't understand it. I just don't know what to say about that, so I think I'll leave that alone and go on to the confusing bits.

What on earth are you talking about? It seems like you might be saying that I was complaining about them being bisexual--which I haven't, ever. You mention choices and screaming.... Well, I have no idea what you're talking about there, either, and I assure you, no screaming is being done.

Seriously, I have no freaking idea why you're calling people slow witted homophobes, in general, and even less as to why you might be specifically calling me one! Is this beer related?

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[DalishRanger]

I think they were simply trying to point out due to the events in the game (even if you make the most "saintly" of choices), the Warden has a lot of blood on their hands too, not just Zevran and Leliana. That's the basic gist I got, anyway.

[errant_knight]

DalishRanger wrote...

I think they were simply trying to point out due to the events in the game (even if you make the most "saintly" of choices), the Warden has a lot of blood on their hands too, not just Zevran and Leliana. That's the basic gist I got, anyway.

I understood that part. I just don't follow the logic of how seeing that blood in a different light from assassaination equates to a lack of intellectual depth and chest-pounding homophobia.

Modifié par errant_knight, 01 mars 2010 - 09:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The point is that anyone who finds Zevran morally reprehensible and unredeemable should really feel the same about Lelianna.

It theory, yes - but...

..not necessarily. It depends on how you judge them and what you know about them.

[asaiasai]

I am not sure how to double quote here so bear with me I went out to office to prepare this reply.
 
This is the OP for this thread.
 
***Ok. I'm a rabid Zevran fan-girl, and I am getting very tired of having to defend him to the homophobics and the one's who can't see their own thoughts in front of their eyes.

Leliana is a bard. She grew up in a wealthy household. She was never tortured or abused. She was not a slave her entire life. She choose to become a bard, and would do any- and everything to please the woman she loved.

She is very enthusiastic about her chosen life-style. She describes how she loved the 'hunt', the 'seduction' and the 'killing' of men.

She lived that way because she chose it. Not because she was a slave. Not because she had no other choice. She lies to the PC from the beginning on. No one forced her into anything. She fell for a woman, and did anything to please her. Unlike Zevran, she describes torture as being a factor.

After meeting Majorlaine, she describes how much she loved her life-style. Unlike Zevran, who reveals that he regrets many things, she practically gushes about her joy about being a bard. Why is it forgiveable to her, but Zevran gets condemned? I really would like some input here, thank you.***
 
Now here is your post that I quoted.
 
***Um, I'm trying to stay out of this, but I have to note that, while there are jackasses everywhere, most people's difficulties with either the Zevran or Leiliana characters have little to do with their bisexuality and lots to do with them murdering people for fun and profit.



The notion that if you find those aspects of their characters to be a barrier, you must be a raging homophobe is entirely unfair.***
 
 
This is the post from Dalishranger who did get where I was coming from. This is my point entirely you are always doing some else’s dirty work. You are no different than Leliana and Zeveran except for one detail they are now doing your dirty work.
 
 
****I think they were simply trying to point out due to the events in the game (even if you make the most "saintly" of choices), the Warden has a lot of blood on their hands too, not just Zevran and Leliana. That's the basic gist I got, anyway.***
 
 
 
This speaks to the quality of the writing and a hearty thanks to Bioware for allowing/forcing the options they do in resolving these situations. This prevents the game from becoming some completely linear experience.
 
Now I will pick my post apart and explain each concept in greater detail.
I am not trying to single you out, but i would like to point out that in game your character's hands are not entirely clean.  You are given, and be thankful for that, gotta love Bioware, the choice in how several situations are resolved.
 
 
 
These are examples of how you are forced into doing someone else’s dirty work, you did not decide to go to these places, you were sent. The game in a sense says here is a problem you need to resolve in what ever manner you choose.
 
 Haven is butchered at your hands, granted they started it but the village dies, and your responsible. The Dalish/Werewolves situation is resolved in one of three ways. You would have to be extremely niave not to know that no matter who you pick to be king in Oz the other one will die, either by the new kings hand or your own. The tower, Earl Eamon's son, the landsmeet all of these things share one thing in common, you are doing someone's dirty work. This is no different than the position that Zev and Leliana were in, they were also doing someone's dirty work.
 
 
 
 
What exactly do you think war is, butchering another man blade or bomb is irrelevant the fact still remains someone lives and someone dies. Where do you think the nice selection of meat in your grocery store comes from, cows, pigs, and chickens do not willingly fall on the blades in the packing houses. My point is as horrific as either of these situations are, both are necessary, as the first one protects the second one feeds.
 
 The world needs its butchers to feed or protect and now Zev and Leliana work for you, The Butcher of  Feraldin, as someone who truly should understand the stakes, failure is not an option. Just because they call you a Grey Warden as opposed to The Butcher of Feraldin does not mean that the titles and the jobs are any diferent, the culling of the herd has begun. 
 
 
While you do not seem to be the typical raging homophobe that prowels these forums I detected a bit of it and also some indignation at being labeld. I have seen enough homophobia in this forum and the ME2 forums to last a life time. The very fact that in order to engage in a same sex romance in DAO the player MUST pursue that option that to rail against it is specious at best. Anyone’s indignation at being labeled a homophobe has no business being directed in my direction, because I have provided the criteria by which they label themselves. To say that you do not like either of the characters because they are killers, and deny that the choice is influenced by orientation is deluding yourself. They do what the player tells them to do, you are culpable for their actions be it killing or sexuality, the only one who has any influence on what the characters do is the player themselves.   
 
 
This whole story goes so deep and works on so many levels, that if people really understood it, something as insignifigant as the orientation of 2 individual characters is really irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, and it is by thier own actions that they call attention to themselves by complaining about that insignifigant detail. As they are options that the player has to choose to scream about them is akin to slapping a sticker on your chest that says, "Hello my name is XXXXXX and i am a homophobe". We are not labeling you, you are labeling you,  we are just pointing it out, and just like the depth of the story some people will miss it. 
 
 
 
I am not trying to do any thing other than give people something to think about. You will either consider what I have written or ignore it as always the choice is the readers. That will not stop me from making my uncomfortable observations. As an individual who for the most part can not be offended I am guilty of forgetting that other people can be. I will not apologize for it because I recognize that the only right I have is the right to decide what is right for me, and so long as consent is granted that is as far as anyone has the right to go regardless of who is buying and selling the dogma what ever it represents.   

Asai