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[OldMan91]

I shall quote (or try to remember what he said) Loghain and end all silly discussions on who is more "moral":

"There are no such thing as innocents [during war]. Only the living and the dead; and the degrees of guilt both bear."

Modifié par OldMan91, 01 mars 2010 - 11:25 .

[asaiasai]

OldMan91 wrote...

I shall quote (or try to remember what he said) Loghain and end all silly discussions on who is more "moral":

"There are no innocents [during war]. Only the living and the dead; and the degrees of guilt both bear."

Amen to that brother amen to that.

Asai

[earl of the north]

Hmmm......a person who kills protecting the innocent is the same as someone who kills innocents?

Haven is butchered at your hands, granted they started it but the village dies, and your responsible. The Dalish/Werewolves situation is resolved in one of three ways. You would have to be extremely niave not to know that no matter who you pick to be king in Oz the other one will die, either by the new kings hand or your own. The tower, Earl Eamon's son, the landsmeet all of these things share one thing in common, you are doing someone's dirty work. This is no different than the position that Zev and Leliana were in, they were also doing someone's dirty work.

Haven is a village of human sacrificing dragon worshiping cultists who attack you to protect their secret.....I'm doing nobody's dirty work, the village dies because of the choices the villagers made. Frankly the world is a better place with them out of it. Even if the Urn wasn't there, they are a clear and present danger to their neighbours (they are getting a steady supply of sacrifices from somewhere) and destroying them is the right thing to do......althrough since you only see one traumatised child in the village, maybe that's where their supply of victims comes from.

The Dalish/Werewolf situation can be permanently handled by taking the 'good' route, you have to choose to take the other routes which will cause the conflict to continue since the curse will still be active.

The situation is Ozammar can be handled peacefully, except for one of the two's attempt at a massacre when they lose. Okay an organised crime syndicate has to die, but again not a particularly innocent group of individuals.

The Tower......abominations.

Even if you didn't need the circle, the Templars had just got their asses kicked and someone needed to clean up the mess.......your MC doing it actually saves innocent lives.

Etc, etc.

The difference is Zevran was a murder of the innocents, I assume he also killed those who deserved their fate, but its highly unlikely that he went the entire time as a Crow without killing innocent victims. If nothing else killing an innocent was probably part of his training.

I can view Leliana as a repentant ex-spy who admits (once you get to know her) of killing and now is seeking redemption. I cannot view Zevran as a repentant ex-assassin since he isn't repentant or seeking redemption.......nor should he be, since it would be an amazing swing from harden assassin to born again good guy in the space of a few months of gametime.

Also the situation of Leilana's childhood might not be the rosy picture portrayed, she lost her mother so young that she doesn't remember her, she was a 'pet' to an Orlesian noblewoman who then 'raised' her.....althrough I got the impression that she was a servant companion rather than an adopted daughter. She was trained musically to entertain her noblewoman and after he death was recruited by a true Orlesian bard (spy), who then trained her as a spy and occasional assassin, before her betrayal and torture.

It doesn't compare to the horrific upbringing of Zevran, but both were trained from childhood to fulfill a role in their societies, the only difference between the two is, Zevran isn't a cute girl who joins the GW's cause while seeking redemption, he's an assassin who joins the GW cause after trying to assassinate the GW and can betray you later if you cannot get his approval high enough.......which is hard for many people on their first playthrough since he seems to treat every conversation as a opportunity to chat up your MC, even after being told no repeatedly.

Once I worked out how to talk to him to get the right responses, I had no problem getting him to be a valuable member of the team much in the same way I gave up on Sten first playthrough, but now consider him one of the best companions in the game.

Modifié par earl of the north, 01 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[earl of the north]

OldMan91 wrote...

I shall quote (or try to remember what he said) Loghain and end all silly discussions on who is more "moral":

"There are no such thing as innocents [during war]. Only the living and the dead; and the degrees of guilt both bear."

Loghain is a dead ****....the opinion of kinslaying slaver who murders his king is like quoting Stalin on human rights.

Modifié par earl of the north, 01 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[earl of the north]

Edit: reposted itself for some reason.

Modifié par earl of the north, 01 mars 2010 - 11:34 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Let me understand, you don't like defending Zevran, so you're going to attack Leliana? That makes no sense. "I hate it when people are mean to puppies, so I'm going to set a cat on fire!"
Anyways, enjoy your trolling.

Original Poster, ignore Maria.

She practically is Lelliana.

[Ahisgewaya]

Sabriana wrote...

Agreed, Krylo. But I am wondering why people think that Leliana is such a sweet, innocent, girly girl, when she is quite capable of hunting, torture (which Zevran never did), seduction and killing.

AND racism, don't forget that.

[Sabriana]

Rofl @ Ahisgewaya .
Caliban is Caliban. True, I was ticked off at that, but I too overshot the mark. I could've put it differently, but essentially I'm still trying to figure out why Leliana is so easily forgiven for the same crimes Zevran is condemned for. Sexuality has nothing to do with it, not on my part.

Zevran fans pick up all the bashing easily, even if it's just mentioned in passing. I would bet that Alistair fans do the same.

I still don't buy the "Leliana seeks redemption and is actively regretting her past". Well, according to her, she isn't, especially when hardened. I do concede that she is pliable, and that she abhors loneliness, and desperately wants to belong. Well, so does Zevran - according to his confession, being made to feel like 'nothing' being told that Rinna was 'nothing' and feeling empty, drove him to his suicide attempt.

Leliana had two years head-start on Zevran, yet everyone expects the man who was an abused slave for all of  his live and was bred to be an assassin, to do a complete turn-around within days (or months).

I would also like to point out that it is Leliana who tells Zevran that "they have much in common," not the other way around.

He does voice regrets all over the place, he just doesn't fall on his knees and starts crying or beats his chest yelling "mea culpa". He does come to realize that doing something worthy is uplifting, hence his telling the PC "I've never done something so worthy like fighting this Blight."

[Ahisgewaya]

I personally think that a lot more people are exactly like her than have been burned by people who are exactly like her.

And they don't think about the rammifications of Lelianna's weak mindedness. Namely, it lets the Chantry get away with what it does. By supporting the Chantry, as far as I'm concerned Lelianna has accepted and condoned every Evil thing the Chantry has done.

Lelianna is worse than evil, she's apethetic.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[Ahisgewaya]

You can bring evil people to justice.

Apethetic people just go about their business till they destroy the world.

[Maximus741000]

I think your judgement on her strikes me as being overly harsh. And innacurate. If she's evil to care for the poor or the weak, then she's evil. If she's evil to agree to good warden decisions, thenb she's evil, if she's evil to have not betrayed the group out of sport - and not the reason of the Urn being defiled - then yeet she is evil.

The Chantry being corrupt may be justifiable, and it is, but what of the good it did to her after years of ruthlesness?

What has more bearing on her role in the world, her desire to do good alongside the warden, or the participation of the bard game, where there is no exact figure how many people she may have killed?

[ejoslin]

Evil? Who said anything about ANYONE being evil?

[Sabriana]

Who are you talking to, Maximus? I can't figure this out. I re-read my post, which is the 3rd up from yours, and I can't see where I could have possibly even hinted at her being evil.

Leliana is not evil. Not even when she falls back toward her old role (hardened) is she ever 'evil'. No one said she is, truly.

[Barbarossa2010]

Sabriana wrote...

Who are you talking to, Maximus? I can't figure this out. I re-read my post, which is the 3rd up from yours, and I can't see where I could have possibly even hinted at her being evil.
Leliana is not evil. Not even when she falls back toward her old role (hardened) is she ever 'evil'. No one said she is, truly.

Ahisgewaya said that she "is worse than evil, she's apathetic." (About 5 posts up).

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 01 mars 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sabriana]

Oh, I see. Even though Ahisgewaya still does not call her evil in any way. Lanaya (sp? Elven girl, Zathrian's second) says the same thing in one of her dialogue choices. Somewhere along the line that apathy is worse than aggression (paraphrase).

But I see how that could be mis-read, thanks Barbarossa.

[DalishRanger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

I personally think that a lot more people are exactly like her than have been burned by people who are exactly like her.

And they don't think about the rammifications of Lelianna's weak mindedness. Namely, it lets the Chantry get away with what it does. By supporting the Chantry, as far as I'm concerned Lelianna has accepted and condoned every Evil thing the Chantry has done.

Lelianna is worse than evil, she's apethetic.

Leliana's actually critical of many things the Chantry does, and even holds some heretical views. You can see the good of an organization without supporting everything it's ever done. The Chantry is horribly corrupt, yes, but that doesn't always include every little pocket of its reaches. And that doesn't invalidate the good that can come out of it, such as helping the poor, the refugees, etc.

[Sabriana]

You see, DalishRanger, that is actually one of those little things that make me not dislike Leliana outright. Her view of the "maker still being all around his faithful" is sweet, and my PC always encourages her to believe what she thinks is right.

But those are actually the same things that go for Zevran as well. His outlook is not in the whole of his conversation, but in the snippets, just like Leliana's. I don't take her with me much, but I do love her banter with Sten. I make it a point to run them over the Orzammar proving bridge just to hear their banter. It's kind of hard to align that with RPing, but I manage.

Although my PC does give her the "Leliana" gifts, Shmooples is out of the question. I did that once, and boy did I want to strangle that pig-bunny.

But you see, that is my contention. They are both incredibly alike. Leliana says as much. I do know that my OP came off as if I wanted to slam her, but that's not so. I want to hear why they are treated so differently, even though they are the most alike among all others. The only difference is that Leliana has a 2 year head start on her path to redemption.

[DalishRanger]

Oh, Schmooples... I actually love the little guy and his ridiculous moniker, but I have to admit his noise-making got a bit irritating at camp. Too bad no one made a "quiet Schmooples" mod like they did for Dog.



Though I already stated a few reasons why I think Leliana often gets a break over Zevran, I think the answers you'll get (and have gotten) will be as varied as the people that answer. Perhaps there's not just one specific reason - and not everyone percieves them as so similar, despite what Leliana says.



Myself, though I like Leliana more as a character (which isn't really saying much, as I love every party member a lot), don't give her any extra slack than Zevran.

[fchopin]

Can someone explain to me what this thread is about?



I read a few pages but still don’t understand what the problem is.

[Sabriana]

Oh I know DalishRanger. It is still very interesting to me, that's why I started this thread. No answer is more right or wrong, but I do wish to pull them up to a more even level, and have people give their opinion why they should be treated different. No opinion matters more or less, but I would like to be able to understand better why one is revered, and the other reviled, most of the time.

[Apophis2412]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh I know DalishRanger. It is still very interesting to me, that's why I started this thread. No answer is more right or wrong, but I do wish to pull them up to a more even level, and have people give their opinion why they should be treated different. No opinion matters more or less, but I would like to be able to understand better why one is revered, and the other reviled, most of the time.

Because Leliana has a sweet personality. If Loghain had Alistair's personality many more would like him.

[Sabriana]

Eh, no. Not really. I do like Alistair a lot, but I also can understand Loghain to a point. That's why he lives to sacrifice himself, even though my PC has to take a hit on her friendship with Alistair.

Alistair and Loghain are not alike, not in the way that Leliana and Zevran are alike. But I'd love to hear your opinion on those two Apophis.

[Apophis2412]

Sabriana wrote...

Eh, no. Not really. I do like Alistair a lot, but I also can understand Loghain to a point. That's why he lives to sacrifice himself, even though my PC has to take a hit on her friendship with Alistair.
Alistair and Loghain are not alike, not in the way that Leliana and Zevran are alike. But I'd love to hear your opinion on those two Apophis.

I was refering to the fact that our opinons of people are based greatly on first impressions and on that person's personality. The history or acts of a person are far less important.

Although Leliana has done many despicabale things she has a very sweet and likable personality and is very beatiful. Most people are blinded by these two things and tend to ignore her history when they form their opinion of her.

Zevran is openly bisexual. Regardless of his past or personality a lot of people will be put off by this, especially the more conservative males. And he is vero open regarding his sexual preferences. This to puts some people off. Some might even call him a pervert.

In conclusion: In the eyes many: On the one hand we have a a beatiful redhead with a sweet personality, on the other hand we have a gay elven pervert. Who is more to like?

[ejoslin]

Leliana is openly bisexual as well. Zevran is also very charismatic and good looking, though obviously, that is all a matter of taste. A lot of people have been making the point, though, that bisexuality is far more acceptable in a woman than a man, and that is probably a big part of the reason that Leliana is given a pass on her past while Zevran is not.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 mars 2010 - 05:16 .

[Apophis2412]

On Loghain: Many people think Loghain has to die for his crimes and that he is downright evil.

A large part of this stems from the fact that he has a rather ruthless and obnoxious personality. Also his looks are rather 'evil'.



If Loghain on the other hand had had Alistair's hn.dsome looks, adorable personality and cute sense of humorr, but had done the same terrible things (ie Ostagar and the Civil War), many people would be trying to redeem this 'pour soul 'instead of wanting him executed.