766 réponses à ce sujet

[brain_damage]

Mmmaybe because Leliana has stopped being an assassin and Zevran is still one? He regrets it but he's still doing it.

[Demx]

Everyone needs to calm down. Both of them are killers, they just use different methods to complete the job.

[Sandtigress]

I actually do find Leliana to be a less redeemable character than Zevran.



Leliana did enjoy her life as a bard to the hilt, and has no qualms with what she did before. She enjoyed the hunt, she enjoyed taking people into her confidence to get what she wanted, and sees nothing wrong with seducing a mark to kill them. I find that part of her personality to be quite disturbing. She went to the Chantry because she was running from Marjolaine, and then perhaps felt regret at the way she lived.



Zevran joins the Wardens to get away from his old life, and while he is practical about the matter seems eager enough to get away from his duties as a Crow. He actually regrets killing Rinna, and was much more honest about his means of dispatching people than Leliana, IMO. The whole "sex before assassination" part of this can be seen in a disturbing light, its true, but I don't think its any less disturbing than the idea that Leliana sees NO problem with acting like someone's friend or beloved in order to get the information that she wants, and sees this as a better alternative to violence. As my characters often say "At least violence is honest." She admits this straight to your face - its hard to see how you wouldn't be doubting her own seeming sense of friendship afterwards. Zevran at least is very honest about his loyalties - he had none to the Crows except that he was one, no loyalty to Loghain beyond what was stipulated in his contract, and loyalty to you (at least initially) only through his oath to serve.



Honestly, at least some of my characters would rather have Zev watch their back than Leliana. There really isn't any way to know that Leliana is honest in her friendship except to believe that she is. Not to say that I don't like and dislike things about both characters. They're both complicated, layered characters and I think there are many ways to see and relate to both.

[brain_damage]

Siradix wrote...

Everyone needs to calm down. Both of them are killers, they just use different methods to complete the job.

And they are both equally awesome.
/thread

[Sabriana]

No one faults Leliana because she chose the life-style she did. But she did have a choice. If you take the time and talk to Zevran, he will tell you that he never had a choice. If you get into the romance, Zevran will offer a 'massage he learned in the wh*rehouse'. Hello. He was 7 years old when he was sold to the Crows. Think about that. Was he perhaps too old for the purposes of the wh*rehose by then?

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, not to paint too fine a line, but he actually tried to kill himself. An "ambush" where one of the "legendary grey wardens" is warned ahead of time that there's an attack going on? *grin* Even if you never get to him admitting that he was trying to kill himself, it's pretty apparent that the attack was designed to fail.

I've accommendated him in more than a few playthroughs. 

(Apparent to who?)

The whole he's a slave, she's wasn't, I find to be a particularly weak argument.  We're all slaves to our upbringing.  Some more than others.  And many spend the better part of their lives undoing the damage done by our parents failings and flaws and prejudices.  In the end, those that find the courage to overcome those behaviors are worthy of admiration.  Whether someone puts a gun to your head or just instills poor judgement, it still comes down to choice in the end whether one perpetuates such behavior or sheds it.

I'm not sure what in my quote you're responding to, but I'll bite with answering why his being a slave is different than her choosing the bard lifestyle.

After being a wh*rehouse boy (with at least one reference that he was trained there as well, if you're romancing him), at age 7, he was bought as a slave and trained to be a killer.  Had he failed at his training (which he did resist at first), he would be dead.  If he tried to leave the crows, he would be killed.  If he failed at his jobs, he would be killed.  The first chance he had to leave the Crows, he took.

Leliana did have free will.  She made a choice, a bad one, but it wasn't her wanting to leave the lifestyle that put her life in danger.  

I see those as very different.

Well, I really do not.  (I was just generally responding to the whole thought process.)  I'm well aware of Zev's background at this point.  Despite his claims, he had the choice to runaway.  He could have chosen to risk death over committing murder for survival.  I mean, think about this.  If we were talking about a real life example, how much sympathy do you think Zevran would elicit.  Oh there'd be a few, I'm sure.  But the vast majority of society would string him up, and you know it.  Personally in real life, I wouldn't pursue either.  I'd find me a nice boring marketing manager to start a family with.

[zaim298]

so... here we have one group liking one character and questions the other group for liking another character...and vice versa...



you don't question preferences as they are subjective... i love Roselyn Sanchez, you don't, fine, your taste...



i'm not attacking or defending the OP or anyone for that matter...

[Sabriana]

Leliana was in the chantry for two years. She had ample time to reflect, and still she falters when it comes to Majorlane. Zevran just shook off the chains. He is expected to to a 360 degree turn in moments. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Really.

[krylo]

Can we do a Justifying Sten thread next? About how he flipped out and killed an entire family with his bare hands over a lost sword?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Sabriana wrote...

Leliana was in the chantry for two years. She had ample time to reflect, and still she falters when it comes to Majorlane. Zevran just shook off the chains. He is expected to to a 360 degree turn in moments. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Really.

What is this faltering you speak of? She didn't falter in my game.

Which is the point. Both characters have wildly different paths they can take based on their interaction with the player. So judging either one on that is kinda silly.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

At the OP you might notice that the same people who don't like Zev tend to not like Lel either.

[Cutlass Jack]

krylo wrote...

Can we do a Justifying Sten thread next? About how he flipped out and killed an entire family with his bare hands over a lost sword?

Way ahead of you. 

[Sabriana]

Well, why not? I'd participate. Sten is a very intriguing character as well. But not in this thread. This is a thread dedicated to justifying Leliana's motives.

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification?

Because pointless arguments give me something to do.

Also, goodmorning, sir.  Should you like to discuss Loghain?

On topic though, I'm basically in your boat and am just kind of needling this or that justification away from people, personally.

[Maria Caliban]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh? I have to accept the justification of one, but I am prohibited to ask for the justification of another? Does that not sound strange to you?

I have never asked people to justify Zevran. That would be stupid. But *you* have asked started this thread with the singular purpose of venting your bile at Leliana fans. That's stupid and trollish.

Now you’re going to whine? You wanted to start some s*** with Leliana fans. You got your wish!

Sabriana wrote...

Get out of my topic if you have nothing to contribute.

You obviously have nothing to contribute to the forum, so feel free to follow your own advice.

[Gilsa]

Sabriana wrote...



Oh? I have to accept the justification of one, but I am prohibited to ask for the justification of another? Does that not sound strange to you?

Just because you are an ardent Leliana fan, does not prohibit me from asking why, does it now?

Your thread is a knee-jerk reaction so your original post comes across as hostile. The author of the "Justifying Zevran" thread had a thoughtful post written out about Zevran. There were a couple legitimate things Zevran did that bothered him and he expressed his frustrations in trying to assess if this was due to weak writing from the writers or if there was another way to interpret Zev's actions. He welcomed feedback. Your post reeks of "oh my god, HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY MAN, fine, defend Leliana!!" You're not looking for a discussion on Leliana. You're looking for a fight.

[Sabriana]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

Says the witch lover, lol.
Come on, Knight. That's all you have to say?

[Jaulen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

I think it comes down to people who are rabidly anti-Zevran, or start equating his stories of sex with marks before killing them as rape, while they make no comparison with Leliana's actions.

It's like the OP of the "Justifying Zevran" thread just going after Zevran, with the "OMG, ZEVRAN IS A RAPIST!!!!" argument, that argument would be much more valid if they also looked at Leliana in the same light.
You can't comdemn one without condemning the other.

[Maria Caliban]

Sabriana wrote...

No one faults Leliana because she chose the life-style she did. But she did have a choice. If you take the time and talk to Zevran, he will tell you that he never had a choice. If you get into the romance, Zevran will offer a 'massage he learned in the wh*rehouse'. Hello. He was 7 years old when he was sold to the Crows. Think about that. Was he perhaps too old for the purposes of the wh*rehose by then?

Pardon me, this is the justifying Leliana thread. Why are you talking about Zevran?

Can you not focus on the subject of your own damn thread?

[krylo]

Jaulen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

I think it comes down to people who are rabidly anti-Zevran, or start equating his stories of sex with marks before killing them as rape, while they make no comparison with Leliana's actions.

It's like the OP of the "Justifying Zevran" thread just going after Zevran, with the "OMG, ZEVRAN IS A RAPIST!!!!" argument, that argument would be much more valid if they also looked at Leliana in the same light.
You can't comdemn one without condemning the other.

You can if you're doing it on the basis of rape.

Sex that lacks true consent (rape) + murder is worse than consensual sex + murder.

One is more of a 'betrayal' than the other, however, many people--myself included--find rape far more distasteful than murder, particularly when looking to hire people that are good at killing, and such, the rape + murder comes off as being the harder of the two to justify.

Not that I have any interest in justifying anything that either of them did... and I like Zevran more.  So.

[Helios969]

Jaulen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

I think it comes down to people who are rabidly anti-Zevran, or start equating his stories of sex with marks before killing them as rape, while they make no comparison with Leliana's actions.

It's like the OP of the "Justifying Zevran" thread just going after Zevran, with the "OMG, ZEVRAN IS A RAPIST!!!!" argument, that argument would be much more valid if they also looked at Leliana in the same light.
You can't comdemn one without condemning the other.

Sooo true.  Rabid fandom has little to do with rational thought.  No room for middle ground. Nope.

[Sabriana]

Caliban, unless you are suffering from blindness, I did. I compared the two, Do you wish me to break it down more? The two are linked. Can you not see that? Please, your habit of stating your own opinions as fact by any means necessary is not wanted in my thread.

[The Real Bowser]

God I love this game. Only Bioware creates video game characters deep enough that people will create huge debates about.



No, I am not trolling, I am quite serious. The characters in this game have a lot of life. None of them are black and white. The two rogues in this game are great examples, and I like both of them a lot.

[Maria Caliban]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification?

They don't. It's a moronic notion, but like a STI, people like Sabriana can’t help but spread it around.

The Real Bowser wrote...

God I love this game. Only Bioware creates video game characters deep enough that people will create huge debates about.

I love the game. I love the character. I hate people who can only enjoy their favorite character by attacking other characters.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2010 - 08:40 .