766 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

DalishRanger wrote...

Dang, I didn't expect so many to post while I was out after it being slow all day. xD

What I simply meant by editing the original post was adding to it to better explain what she meant; not to delete anything from it. If Sabriana did that... The next few posts would feel rather random. XD

And of course some people would always get defensive. My main concern is people completely missing the point, because the actual original topic doesn't get a lot of valid (as in, related to it) responses. Better to have a few super defensive fans and trolls popping up once in a while than a whole slew of people getting the wrong idea, and the topic getting nowhere at all.
... Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm articulating myself quite right.

Actually, you are very clear.  I'm a bit dense sometimes, though -- I was just trying to explain why I was so surprised how the conversation exploded at first.  Really, though, the damage on the first page is done -- even if she were to reword it, people would still pick up on the anger of the following posts.

It's too bad, too, because it's an interesting topic.  How similar they are, and yet how different.  Both in what lead them up to the life, how they lived it, and their basic personalities.  I have always found it interesting that Leliana who admits to torture and clean killing only "when possible" is viewed with more sympathy because she does have such a sweet personality. At least, for the warden.  I also find it interesting that people can compare the torture she went through (though completely horrible and awful -- I felt so bad for her when I heard about that) as somehow comparable to what Zevran went through as a child, as the only life he ever knew.  And of course, her capture and torture had nothing to do with why she was a bard to begin with.

Anyway, am I rambling? I suppose I am.

[DalishRanger]

I figure it could probably do some damage control, but in the end, it's Sabriana's call. I won't whine and moan if she decides to leave it as it is.

No, not really. Zevran and Leliana have quite a lot in common, but I suppose it's the way they developed from their pasts and how they act that people react to the most, more than their life experiences. I find them both very charming and fascinating in their own way. The main reason I like Leliana a bit more is probably because she's the romance of my favorite warden - the mage in my avatar. Her romance just makes me smile/laugh (well, so does Zev's, but I prefer playing straight males with female NPCs in game romances) and... Just makes me feel good, I guess. Which is a nice bright spot in all the dreariness of other subject matter in DA:O.

Zev's romance/early mission stories also make me smile and laugh, but in a different way. I suppose in the end, I enjoy him more as a best buddy type, rather than a romance. Same with Alistair. Awesome characters everywhere, but the bard's the one who's enchanted me the most. Which is probably odd, as I'm not particularly girly, could care less about fashion/shoes, yet when Leliana talks about them, I can't help but want to listen.

She's also atypical of my favorite kind of Bioware gals. Some of my other top favs from previous games are: Jaheira (BG-BG2), Bastila (KOTOR), and Ashley (ME). Usually I go for the more outwardly tough, blunt girls. Or the ones that are often referred to as b*tches in their respective fandoms. xD

And now I'm rambling...

Modifié par DalishRanger, 04 mars 2010 - 02:41 .

[Maria Caliban]

I like that she tries to find joy wherever she is (“These bruises make a pretty pattern”), that she is more heart than head, and that she has flights of fancy. I love her spiritual inclinations and the way she takes the Chantry’s teachings, and tries to put a more positive, even beautiful, spin on them. (The Maker has abandoned us cause we suck < The Maker loves us and can be found in all his creations)

In another thread, I talked about Leliana’s need to entertain and suggested the story about woman with birds in her hair was made-up. Her honest desire for the attention/appreciation of others is refreshing.

[casedawgz]

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

[Nonvita]

casedawgz wrote...

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

Which is a personal opinion based on zero evidence... Morrigan's romance, so I've heard, is very good in its own way. Obviously people will have preferences between her and Leliana, but they are both very well written and fully fleshed out characters (not like that). You're actually disrespecting both characters by saying that- it's an insult to Morrigan to paint her as so 2-D, and it's an insult to Leliana to act as though people only romance her because they don't like Morrigan.

[DalishRanger]

I actually did the Morrigan romance on my first run through, and, while sad, found it quite satisfying in its own way. A romance doesn't have to be happy to be good. At least, not to me. As long as it's well-written and engaging, I'm set.

Maria Caliban wrote...
In another thread, I talked about
Leliana’s need to entertain and suggested the story about woman with
birds in her hair was made-up. Her honest desire for the
attention/appreciation of others is refreshing.

While I wouldn't put it past Leliana to make such a thing up for a good story, I'm inclined to believe it actually happened. Mainly because the Orlesians are strongly influenced by the French circa Rococo to Revolution eras, and aristocratic women DID have hairdos that ridiculous, including live birds in their hair.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 04 mars 2010 - 07:38 .

[casedawgz]

Nonvita wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

Which is a personal opinion based on zero evidence... Morrigan's romance, so I've heard, is very good in its own way. Obviously people will have preferences between her and Leliana, but they are both very well written and fully fleshed out characters (not like that). You're actually disrespecting both characters by saying that- it's an insult to Morrigan to paint her as so 2-D, and it's an insult to Leliana to act as though people only romance her because they don't like Morrigan.

Hostile much?

[Nonvita]

casedawgz wrote...

Hostile much?

Not as much as you'd think. I do, however, enjoy when people actually contribute to a discussion. If you like or dislike Leliana for a specific reason, then by all means go ahead and share.

Modifié par Nonvita, 04 mars 2010 - 07:56 .

[Ahisgewaya]

It was my understanding that the name of this post was because someone made a topic called "justifying Zevran". Of coarse, the entire thing is quite rediculous, as no characters need "justification", but I thought this one was more or less a reaction to the rediculousness of someone wanting a justification for Zevran.

[Ahisgewaya]

casedawgz wrote...

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

Morrigan is her own person with her own goals and dreams which go beyond you. I didn't think it was a downer at all. Too many men try to possess the woman they are with and aren't cool with her having her own life, especially if at some point they need some time away from them. If your character really loves her you have the option to go after her at the end.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 04 mars 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sabriana]

Leliana's blurbs are hilarious at times, her comment at the windmill cracked me up, so did her reaction to the elder oak. A speechless bard - and her facial expression matches perfectly.

I should put an addendum to my OP, true, telling people to read more, that it was meant to spark discussion. True enough, we Zevran fans are used to so much worse, the people here have been (for the most part) remarkably clear-headed.

There are whole threads about Zevran hate, such as "I killed him, and I loved it" that were far more inflammatory than anything I ever wrote about comparing the two. Granted, the thread is old, and far back in the pages, but it seems that bashing Zevran draws the 'chuckle, heck yeah' crowd, while even hinting that Leliana and Zevran have a lot in common draws the 'how dare you, troll' crowd.

I don't dislike Leliana, but she stays behind often, I can't warm up to her character. She gets her presents, she will never be just ignored, and she gets her quest done. No hardening though, I can't stand that. I prefer her all "maker" headed, and I don't want her to turn back onto the bard path in any way, shape, or form. The conversation after Majorlaine sounds bad to me, and her fright about becoming like Majorlaine seems genuine. So no, I won't do that to her again, even though it was inadvertently the first time around.

Edited to make stuff clear. None of the above is meant to single anyone out. Not in this, nor other threads. Ever. 'Kay? Good.

Modifié par Sabriana, 04 mars 2010 - 08:24 .

[Ahisgewaya]

I myself am a male player and am a very rabid Morrigan fan.

[DalishRanger]

I don't know if I'd call myself a "rabid" fan of anybody, but I like both Morrigan and Leliana. Morrigan's compelling in her own right, and I think too many people brush her off as a cold-hearted b*tch and overlook her social ineptitude and disconnect with most other people as the root of many of her issues. The woman's got deep psychological issues - as do most, if not all of the party companions - and to one-dimentionalize her does her a disservice, I think.

Not to mention if you romance or befriend her, you learn pretty quickly that Morrigan is capable of caring, she's just not good at showing it... And not good at admitting it to herself, because it goes completely against how she was raised.

It's getting very late (so late it's early) over here, so I have no idea if I'm even typing properly at this point. Apologies for any incoherent... ness.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 04 mars 2010 - 08:26 .

[casedawgz]

Apparently I spoke incorrectly. I'm not contesting that Morrigan is a good character, or that she isn't well written. Quite the contrary. My first time through I was quite moved by the Morrigan romance. However, after I saw it once, I found it hard to go through it again knowing the results. The Leliana romance I can do over and over again and still enjoy it, but putting 40 hours into a playthrough knowing that Morrigan is going to dump me and run away with my demon baby is too stressful for me to keep going back to.

[Nonvita]

Sabriana wrote...

I don't dislike Leliana, but she stays behind often, I can't warm up to her character. She gets her presents, she will never be just ignored, and she gets her quest done. No hardening though, I can't stand that. I prefer her all "maker" headed, and I don't want her to turn back onto the bard path in any way, shape, or form. The conversation after Majorlaine sounds bad to me, and her fright about becoming like Majorlaine seems genuine. So no, I won't do that to her again, even though it was inadvertently the first time around.

Ahh, well regardless of what I want, many of my characters decide to harden her... They either aren't big on the Chantry, or they don't like watching her try to keep running away. Strangely, I never feel completely comfortable with either of the outcomes. Whereas with Alistair I will absolutely defend hardening him, with Leliana it's a much more balanced choice. It really can go either way. In some ways it's nice that every character can choose a completely different approach with her.

And I do love her blurbs and banters, especially with Sten. They're pretty remarkably adorable.

casedawgz wrote...

Apparently I spoke incorrectly. I'm
not contesting that Morrigan is a good character, or that she isn't
well written. Quite the contrary. My first time through I was quite
moved by the Morrigan romance. However, after I saw it once, I found it
hard to go through it again knowing the results. The Leliana romance I
can do over and over again and still enjoy it, but putting 40 hours
into a playthrough knowing that Morrigan is going to dump me and run
away with my demon baby is too stressful for me to keep going back to.

Well don't worry, I'm the same way with the Alistair romance. Which goes against most of the crowd, apparently, but I haven't been able to really romance him since my first run.

Modifié par Nonvita, 04 mars 2010 - 08:31 .

[Ahisgewaya]

casedawgz wrote...

Apparently I spoke incorrectly. I'm not contesting that Morrigan is a good character, or that she isn't well written. Quite the contrary. My first time through I was quite moved by the Morrigan romance. However, after I saw it once, I found it hard to go through it again knowing the results. The Leliana romance I can do over and over again and still enjoy it, but putting 40 hours into a playthrough knowing that Morrigan is going to dump me and run away with my demon baby is too stressful for me to keep going back to.

It's not so much that she dumps you. If she dumped you she would take off the ring, which links you both mind and soul. In my epilogue it says she never removed the ring. I also think a lot of it is she's worried about you. She's trying to bring an old god back into the world,  and accepts the physical personal risks involved in that, but doesn't want to put you through the pain of her possibly dying in child birth (at least that was one thing I gathered was going through her mind). I think she also worries being with you may start to dissuade her from her goal, which is a personally dangerous goal to say the least. Finally, I think that what she is wanting to do is as far as she is concerned, bigger than your relationship.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 04 mars 2010 - 08:47 .

[Sabriana]

I agree, hardening Alistair is a 'must do' almost. I also only did the romance once, now my PCs do romance Alistair, but only to a point. It's actually sad to see him partially relieved that the romance is over. Poor guy, everybody wants something from him, and because he will end up being King, he needs to get 'hardened'.

One of these days I will try and get the 'going off into the sun-set' ending with him, what's stopping me is that I truly don't want Anora ruling alone.

As for not hardening Leliana again, I rather like to imagine that her views of the maker and the chantry are not quite what the chantry has in mind. So yeah, go Lel. But true enough, it is a decision that every player has to make for her/himself.

After doing a re-install, she has stayed on the 'friend' path, no ninja-love yet. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that she is now officially 'unglitched' in my game(s).

I don't play males, so I've not experienced the Morrigan romance, but my PCs are all good friends with her. Her reaction to getting the mirror is very telling. Her facial expressions and inflections are perfect. Great animation/VA.

[Ken555]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

Morrigan is her own person with her own goals and dreams which go beyond you. I didn't think it was a downer at all. Too many men try to possess the woman they are with and aren't cool with her having her own life, especially if at some point they need some time away from them. If your character really loves her you have the option to go after her at the end.

I agree Morrigan was pretty awsome but just didn't like the idea of love.

[Ken555]

I still think that before I went to denerim(after the landsmeet) when she talked about making a child, I think that was a pretty good reason to get laid.

[Ahisgewaya]

Sabriana wrote...
Her reaction to getting the mirror is very telling. Her facial expressions and inflections are perfect. Great animation/VA.

It's also somewhat symbolic for me, namely that I fixed what Flemmeth broke. lol

I've also always been a sucker for witches. Especially attractive ones. I love the musicals "Wicked" and "Into the Woods".

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 04 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[DalishRanger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
I've also always been a sucker for witches. Especially attractive ones. I love the musicals "Wicked" and "Into the Woods".

I know it's horrendously off topic, but... I love Wicked. I got to see it at the Fox theatre in Atlanta several years ago. It was amazing. <3


More on topic, I've never finished a run through with hardening Leliana, so I can't vouch for differences in the end game of her hardened vs unhardened (I've heard of them, but it's not the same as playing them myself). However, what little I did see of her hardened I didn't care for. Not for her character, at least. I much prefer her unhardened.

[Sabriana]

To me, it was pretty telling that she initially seemed to agree with Flemeth's actions regarding the mirror, Ahisgewaya. However, as soon as she gets handed the replacement it is clear that she really was hurt by her 'mother's' actions. And as Ken says, she is not used to thinking of love, or friendship as a strength.

I do feel however, that her lines about 'power, survival' being most important are Flemeth's lines, and she just repeats them. Later on she changes her tune about friendship, and it seems genuine.

[casedawgz]

I actually like hardened Leliana. She's still a good person if you do it, she just tends to prefer a more exciting life. If you don't romance her, her intentions for the future change at the end of the game based on whether she's been hardened. Unhardened, she's wearing a dress and is going back to Orlais, whereas hardened, she's wearing her armor and has been asked to lead an expedition into the Deep Roads fighting darkspawn.

[Sabriana]

You see, Casedwagz, that was actually another "I will never harden her again" point for me. I don't want her to go into the deep roads. I guess the broodmother has scarred me for life, but the idea of her getting captured...ugh.

Hmm, I might be misremembering that, but in my ending (unhardened) she stays around for a while before moving on. I've never had an ending where she goes back to Orlais. But then again, I am on my 4th playthrough (I'm a very slow player ), so I don't have all the endings yet.

[DalishRanger]

In all my non-mage playthroughs, she ended up guarding the Urn. No return to Orlais. Though I'm fairly certain I've read that she returns to Orlais to get revenge on her enemies if she's hardened, romanced, and the Warden sacrifices themselves.



... And now I'm signing off for bed. I'm starting to nod off while typing. XP