766 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Good night, DR. No sense in getting hit in the head by your keyboard

[DalishRanger]

iuouyhjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjadfaauiuhj jhkkklkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk



^ DR's head hitting the keyboard



... Okay, NOW I'm going to bed. 'Night Bioverse! ... Or morning/afternoon, as they case may be in your time zone.

[Ahisgewaya]

DalishRanger wrote...
I know it's horrendously off topic, but... I love Wicked. I got to see it at the Fox theatre in Atlanta several years ago. It was amazing. <3

I just watched the "Defying Gravity" scene again on Youtube. My god that's an awesome song.

[Emerald Melios]

casedawgz wrote...

90% of male players are going to be Leliana fans because the Morrigan romance is such a downer.

There's another reason for favoring Leliana. Well, assuming you play female characters.....

[HoonDing]

There's no need to justify Leliana. The only reason Leliana joins the party is to help killing darkspawn, and she's good at that. Her past actions don't matter at all to the big picture.

Modifié par virumor, 04 mars 2010 - 01:02 .

[CybAnt1]

I think the only interesting question about Leliana is ...



Did she leave her "life of crime" as a bard (and BTW it sort of bugs me that the way bards are in Ferelden, they must be bad people; what's wrong with being a wandering minstrel, well, I guess if you're working for Marjolaine, seducing & manipulating people for criminal schemes, that's bad) to become a religious person for sincere or insincere reasons.



Personally, I think she does want to atone for her past life, and she really hoped "finding religion" could help her do it. (Of course, you can help influence her to re-embrace that past life anyway, and in any case, she doesn't mind using the skills she learned from it to help you.) I don't think she's lying about having a vision of the Maker (although if there is no Maker maybe it was just a dream.)



BTW, the conversation she has with Marjolaine seems to hint strongly that their relationship went beyond mentor-student, a clear indicator of her bisexuality (imho) ... the clear subtext of her personal quest is she has to move on from her former lover, to embrace her new one ....



Like all the others, I think she is an interesting person with multiple layers. Some say she may be overcompensating for her past life, thus her almost too-intense religious zealotry; I think that's correct. But for those who say she's just manipulating you/the main PC and nothing's changed about her outlook (i.e. she's still into using people for her own ends), well, the various epilogues for her certainly challenge that.

[ejoslin]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I think the only interesting question about Leliana is ...

Did she leave her "life of crime" as a bard (and BTW it sort of bugs me that the way bards are in Ferelden, they must be bad people; what's wrong with being a wandering minstrel, well, I guess if you're working for Marjolaine, seducing & manipulating people for criminal schemes, that's bad) to become a religious person for sincere or insincere reasons.

Personally, I think she does want to atone for her past life, and she really hoped "finding religion" could help her do it. (Of course, you can help influence her to re-embrace that past life anyway, and in any case, she doesn't mind using the skills she learned from it to help you.) I don't think she's lying about having a vision of the Maker (although if there is no Maker maybe it was just a dream.)

BTW, the conversation she has with Marjolaine seems to hint strongly that their relationship went beyond mentor-student, a clear indicator of her bisexuality (imho) ... the clear subtext of her personal quest is she has to move on from her former lover, to embrace her new one ....

Like all the others, I think she is an interesting person with multiple layers. Some say she may be overcompensating for her past life, thus her almost too-intense religious zealotry; I think that's correct. But for those who say she's just manipulating you/the main PC and nothing's changed about her outlook (i.e. she's still into using people for her own ends), well, the various epilogues for her certainly challenge that.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone say she's just manipulating the main PC.  What I have seen said is that she is a master at becoming the woman someone else whats her to be.  She says this outright.  That doesn't mean that she's not in love with the warden.  She CLEARLY loves the warden.  That doesn't mean she's not adjusting to become the person the warden will love, however.

And Orlesian bards ARE assassins, not wandering minstrels.  Marjolaine is not the bard master of them all, after all.  They're well known as what they are.

And of course Leliana, with or without a relationship with Marjolaine, is bisexual.  It's the way the character is written.  It's very clear, especially if playing a FemWarden.

[Sabriana]

I don't think she uses the PC, be it friend or lover. But she is very easily influenced, and that's why I don't like the 'hardening' bit at all. It would be so easy to imagine that she could be turned back to her old life do to love, and that bothers me.

I am only saying that she doesn't regret her life as a bard altogether, she liked it. She does say so in-game, and because she liked it, she is afraid that she truly is becoming Majorlaine.
About bards vs minstrels, iirc Leliana states that the difference exists only in Orlais. Elsewhere the term is interchangeable.

ninja'd

Modifié par Sabriana, 04 mars 2010 - 02:32 .

[Lenimph]

If she's manipulating my pc then power to her because I totally fell for it. Of course this idea... (as cool as it might be) doesn't work. She kills herself if you make the ultimate sacrifice...

Also I think it's made very clear that Leliana loved Marjoline what isn't clear is if they're where in a relationship or if it was just onesided. Although I assumed right away that they where involved... I didn't really think otherwise until I heard other peoples opinouns.

Modifié par Lenimph, 04 mars 2010 - 03:33 .

[DalishRanger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
I just watched the "Defying Gravity" scene again on Youtube. My god that's an awesome song.

Yes, yes it is. It's really amazing seeing it in person, too. My personal favorite song from it, though, is "No Good Deed" I like epiphany/dramatic songs. And "Popular" always cracks me up. Poor Elphaba... xD

Lenimph wrote...
Also I think it's made very clear that Leliana loved Marjoline what isn't clear is if they're where in a relationship or if it was just onesided.

It isn't ever fully elaborated, true - I think that was intentionally left up to player interpretation. Personally, I think her relationship with Marjolaine did extend into the sexual - but I highly doubt Marjolaine reciprocated genuine feelings for Leliana. Likely she participated to further keep Leliana attached to her, and thusly, more under her thumb and control.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 04 mars 2010 - 08:08 .

[Sabriana]

I think it was very one-sided. Leliana loved Majorlaine (I mean, she really loved her, not only in a sexual way, although that is left wide open for interpretation), but Majorlaine manipulated Lelaina, and played her. That's the reason Majorlaine dies in my play-throughs now, I don't want her to screw with Leliana's head (or try to take her life) again. But she did definitely succeed in twisting Leliana somehow.

I would like to hear some input on that. How much influence did Majorlaine have? Apparently a lot, because even though Lel is with the Warden right then, she still lets Majorlaine's thoughts trouble her.

[DalishRanger]

Sabriana wrote...
I think it was very one-sided. Leliana loved Majorlaine (I mean, she really loved her, not only in a sexual way, although that is left wide open for interpretation), but Majorlaine manipulated Lelaina, and played her. That's the reason Majorlaine dies in my play-throughs now, I don't want her to screw with Leliana's head (or try to take her life) again. But she did definitely succeed in twisting Leliana somehow.

This. I still plan on hardening Leliana on my Brosca playthrough, but only because it's in character for him to encourage her to embrace her bardic past. But the reasons here are why I (and my Amell) keep Leliana unhardened.

We still don't know exactly how Leliana came to be under Marjolaine's wing, but she was with her long enough to learn a highly skilled trade - and considering Leliana can't be any older than about 29 (I'll elaborate if asked) and spent 2 years prior to Origins in Ferelden, I'd say it's probably safe to assume Marjolaine took her in while she was still pretty young.

Probably as a young teenager - which is a very important developmental time for a person - mentally as well as physically. I think Marjolaine had complete control over Leliana's thoughts and actions, and while most of it faded after Leliana fled, she certain still held enough to shake Leliana when she reappeared.

[Cuddlezarro]

Hardened Leliena isnt all that much different from unhardened leliena outside the endings and you get a single extra dialogue after the initial harden conversation

if you want to do the US and romance her...make sure you harden her unless your like me and couldnt care less that she commits suicide >_>

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 04 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Archereon]

Leliana kills herself if the Warden dies and was romancing her. I'm pretty sure she's not manipulating him, if she loved the Warden enough to kill herself over it, it makes sense she'd admit she was originally manipulating him/her.



However, Leliana did choose her former lifestyle, unlike Zeveran.



Both gave it up to save their own skins.



The difference between the two is that Leliana does not take up the lifestyle as soon as possible unless the player influences her otherwise. Zeveran on the other hand intends to go right back to his assassin lifestyle unless the player intervenes.

[ejoslin]

Archereon wrote...

Leliana kills herself if the Warden dies and was romancing her. I'm pretty sure she's not manipulating him, if she loved the Warden enough to kill herself over it, it makes sense she'd admit she was originally manipulating him/her.

However, Leliana did choose her former lifestyle, unlike Zeveran.

Both gave it up to save their own skins.

The difference between the two is that Leliana does not take up the lifestyle as soon as possible unless the player influences her otherwise. Zeveran on the other hand intends to go right back to his assassin lifestyle unless the player intervenes.

Actually, Zevran intends to die unless the player intervenes.  He just is apparently REALLY bad at it unless the warden is the one that kills him.

[Sabriana]

Zevran does not try to kill the Warden. He tries to commit suicide. Of course, that little tid-bit doesn't come to light unless he's talked to and appreciated. No, not romanced, his romance is very easy to turn off.

He will tell this to the FriendWarden at +91, and to the romanced Warden at +71. Of course, he needs a lot of patience. He just started on his way of self governance. He was a slave until he met the Warden. 3 sovereigns was all it took for the Crows to assume ownership of the 7-year old small child.

[HoonDing]

Sabriana wrote...

Zevran does not try to kill the Warden. He tries to commit suicide.

Then why does he bring friends? If I let my party stand around doing nothing, they will all end up dead. Can't he just hang himself or something?

Modifié par virumor, 04 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[ejoslin]

edit: deleted.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 09:28 .

[ejoslin]

virumor wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Zevran does not try to kill the Warden. He tries to commit suicide.

Then why does he bring friends? If I let my party stand around doing nothing, they will all end up dead. Can't he just hang himself or something?

Look, the dialog clearly states that he wants to die, and that the attempt on the grey warden was a suicide attempt.

As to his motives, why he chose that way?  Who knows.

Edit: took out dialog spoiler.

A friend hears about this at 91+ friendly, so very late in the game.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 09:29 .

[DalishRanger]

virumor wrote...
Then why does he bring friends? If I let my party stand around doing nothing, they will all end up dead. Can't he just hang himself or something?

Because combat's meant to be challenging, and those types of things are more of a game mechanic thing than a story plot thing?

That, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Crows wanted and/or made him take along help.

[Nonvita]

virumor wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Zevran does not try to kill the Warden. He tries to commit suicide.

Then why does he bring friends? If I let my party stand around doing nothing, they will all end up dead. Can't he just hang himself or something?

Because although he was trying to die to get away from the Crows, I think he still felt he had to go about it in Crow fashion. It's just the way he's always done things, and I think in some ways he still feels it's what's "expected" of him...

But the ambush is really quite bad- they warn you beforehand, Zevran makes it very obvious that it's a setup, they're really really bad mercenaries, and Zevran really doesn't put up a fight (which some will say is because he's TEH SUCKZORZ, but considering that he can easily become the best damage dealer in the game, it doesn't add up). Why would he choose an outright fight when he says in his conversations that he much prefers stealth killings? It's because it puts him at a disadvantage.

Now, to get back to Leliana, I find her attempt to overcome her past very interesting. She seems to have no idea how to go about it. She ended up in the Chantry simply because she was offered haven there, not because she actually sought it out. And she actively questioned many of the teachings of the Chantry, despite her approval of it. Going along with what other people said about her assuming whatever role she needs to, I wonder how things might have been different if she'd found safety somewhere else. Was she really drawn to the Chantry because she sought repentence, or was it because she happened to end up there and decided it was as good as anywhere?

[Sabriana]

I agree, Nonvita. The only time she is really forceful is when she insists that the maker is still around. She is so easily shaped. What might have happened if she ended up finding refuge in a cult? I do wonder.

Good point DR. But I do think all of our rationality is wasted here. I am relieved that Lel found refuge in the chantry, and I'm even more relieved that she has her very own ideas how the maker 'works'.

[CybAnt1]

Dunno. Part of what confuses me about Leliana the person is the way the game describes the role/spec of bards. Bards are killers, thieves, and manipulators. This is what Marjolaine taught her bards to do. As well as what they are in other games, namely, singers, musicians, tellers of stories, keepers of legends and lore, entertainers. I have always loved playing RPG bards ever since I had my char in Bard's Tale, El Vis. (A little bit Elvis, a little bit El Cid.)



Yes, the bard role even in D & D was somewhat "roguish"; as I recall the 1E D & D bard had thief skills (and druid spells). But there was no explicit association with criminality, murder, etc. Sure there is always a little bit of the wild side to the wandering minstrel, but nothing like that. But now here in this game the bard spec is a rogue specialization and the game lore says bards do things like manipulate others for money, if they're not just busy stealing or killing from them.



When Leliana first told me she wanted to atone for her bard past ... I just didn't get it at first ... what's to apologize for? You sing beautiful songs, and yes I love your legendary stories and ballads. But apparently a Marjolaine-Orlais style bard is something different than I was thinking of, a cold-blooded manipulator and killer.



I do believe Leliana's religious conversion is "real," lots of people "find" religion in prison, and I think some are sincere .... she might be one. I take the naive view of her ... personally, I believe she had a real vision of the Maker (whatever the cause of it was; that issue aside), and is telling you the truth about that. But yes I do think her religious over-zealotry is a way of over-compensating for a past she's somewhat ashamed of.

[Sabriana]

Cyb, I agree with you. Bards outside of Orlais are still traveling minstrels telling tales. It's not like the 'Sharwyn' of NWN. She does want to atone. She does wish to do good, but she is far too used to become what people want her to become.

Unlike Zevran, who wants to get away from his horrible past, she is uncertain if she really can shake loose. She is a sweet girl, but far to easy to manipulate, imo. Zevran has no such problems. He will plead for the mages and for the dalish. He will take over completely and the PC can do nothing but watch. None of the other romance options will do that, no matter what.

[Nonvita]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I do believe Leliana's religious conversion is "real," lots of people "find" religion in prison, and I think some are sincere .... she might be one. I take the naive view of her ... personally, I believe she had a real vision of the Maker (whatever the cause of it was; that issue aside), and is telling you the truth about that. But yes I do think her religious over-zealotry is a way of over-compensating for a past she's somewhat ashamed of.

There is some evidence that her dream story was not true, for example speaking to the Guardian at the ashes. I'm not saying that means she doesn't truly want to atone, but part of it, at least, is definitely made up on her part. I think she does so because it's her way of building confidence in what she's doing and to feel like things are really going to get better. If she didn't have her faith in things like her 'dream,' ("I believe that she believes her vision") then she'd be even more lost. I think she really wants to find meaning in the world but there's nothing there to really answer things for her (see: banters with Morrigan), so she has to make herself believe that the answers are actually there.

Sorry that's not really related to your point, but what you said just made me think about it. =P