766 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

That's actually a good way to put it, Nonvita. Hence my point about her ending up in the chantry. I was quite by accident. What would have happened to Leliana if she ended up in a cult instead?

[Nonvita]

Sabriana wrote...

That's actually a good way to put it, Nonvita. Hence my point about her ending up in the chantry. I was quite by accident. What would have happened to Leliana if she ended up in a cult instead?

Well, she'd disagree with plenty of what they do, but she'd probably find something good in it and try to make the best of her situation.

[Sabriana]

A bad girl you are.



*channels Yoda again*

[Maria Caliban]

Nonvita wrote...

There is some evidence that her dream story was not true, for example speaking to the Guardian at the ashes. I'm not saying that means she doesn't truly want to atone, but part of it, at least, is definitely made up on her part.

The Guardian is a spirit. We know from the Sloth demon's realm that they can have insight into a person, but that's not the same as knowing the truth. If you believe the Guardian speaks nothing but truth, then you also have to believe that the Maker is real, the one god of Thedas, and he picked Andraste as his prophet.

Leliana’s own religious tells her that the Maker is gone, and it seems as though no one has believed her visions. Just because she has faith, doesn’t mean Leliana is free of doubt. Leliana probably has a gnawing fear that her visions were something she made up because she does want attention.

[DalishRanger]

A great point, Nonvita, though I personally am ambivalent about whether or not her vision is true. That has more to do with the fact I'm ambivalent about the Maker existing or not than Leliana herself, though. And I kind of like it that way, actually. I'd prefer if we were never given a definitive answer to the Maker existing or not.

[Cuddlezarro]

I personally fall into the maker aint real camp and that the whole religion was cooked up by orlais as another means to control

[ejoslin]

But you know, Leliana's rose was real.

[Cuddlezarro]

ejoslin wrote...

But you know, Leliana's rose was real.

and look what happened to it lol

[Maria Caliban]

The Chant of Light was around before Orlais existed, though we know the Chantry 'edited' the songs and completely removed some chants.

I think the Maker is real. I don't think the Maker is the one, true god and all others are fake. I don't think Leliana had visions from the Maker, but I do think she had visions. We know that in dreams, a mortal mind wanders the Fade. I think Leliana's mind has a habit of wandering off the beaten path to someplace a bit more meaningful.

If you recall, the Warden also 'hears' the darkspawn and the archdemon in their dream, which means some aspect of the Blight must exist in the Fade.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 04 mars 2010 - 11:51 .

[Nonvita]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't think Leliana had visions from the Maker, but I do think she had visions. We know that in dreams, a mortal mind wanders the Fade. I think Leliana's mind has a habit of wandering off the beaten path to someplace a bit more meaningful.

I think that was kind of the point I tried to make, but probably worded it wrong. My later post clarified it a little. Leliana has a tendency to grasp for meaning where there is none, and so she ends up believing in things like her vision more than she should. She wants them to hold answers, so she makes them hold answers. I didn't mean to say that the Guardian was definitely right, just that he did hint at her dream being false.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

 I think Leliana's mind has a habit of wandering off the beaten path to someplace a bit more meaningful.

Or a fade spirit wandered to her.

Though I'm not sure she really had anything more than a dream she ascribed too much meaning to.  Either's possible (as is her actually receiving a message from The Maker), but, just like most everything else dealing with the metaphysical in this game it's left intentionally opent--which lets us have these wonderful debates.

Anyway I'm in the, "The Maker was/is a powerful fade spirit and Andraste is/was a powerful 'abomination' ala Wynne," camp.

Perhaps a Pride Demon preying on her belief that she is so beautiful that even The Maker himself would speak to her, or perhaps a more benevolent fade spirit, perhaps of justice or compassion, who lent its power to Andraste so she could free the elves and stop the corrupt rule of the Tevinter Magisters.

Either way, I'm not sold on the whole 'Creater of all' thing the Chantry tries to sell us.

Modifié par krylo, 04 mars 2010 - 11:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Guardian: "Admit it! You made up your vision for attention.”

Leliana: *upset face* “What? No, I would never do that... And if I did, I’d make up something a bit more interesting than falling into a dark pit. Like blood dripping from the moon. Oh, or the seas boiling! How about a seven-headed beast that lords over humanity for a thousand years? Give me a bit of credit - “fall into a pit of darkness.” Please, the Maker should hire me to make his visions. They could use a little pizzazz.”

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[DalishRanger]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Guardian: "Admit it! You made up your vision for attention.”

Leliana: *upset face* “What? No, I would never do that... And if I did, I’d make up something a bit more interesting than falling into a dark pit. Like blood dripping from the moon. Oh, or the seas boiling! How about a seven-headed beast that lords over humanity for a thousand years? Give me a bit of credit - “fall into a pit of darkness.” Please, the Maker should hire me to make his visions. They could use a little pizzazz.”

*Gigglesnort* xD It's things like these that make me happy when Maria pops into a thread.

[Ahisgewaya]

Speaking of the fade and the Chantry's lies, I've always thought the black city when seen from the fade looked like an incredibly huge floating land mass, not just a city. I wonder if it's actually the size of a continent...

And I'm definately in the "Lelliana made up her vision for attention" camp. I don't think the guardian knows everything he's talking about, but he reads people quite well. I see no reason why Leliana would be an exception.

On another note, I recently gave Leliana a bit more of a chance, and she's not as bad a character as I made her out to be, I just really wish she'd shut up about the maker. And she is a bit of a racist, but she apologizes for it and promises to change, so that's a bit better. In short, I have decided that I may have judged her too harshly.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 05 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[CybAnt1]

Again, I'm not trying to get into the Maker is real/Maker is not real argument.



Maybe she just ate a spicy enchilada and had a weird dream. I don't think she's lying about having had a vision.



I do think it's possible her own desire to find significance in anything made her overinterpret whatever it was.



BTW, my own personal observation, after three visits to the Gauntlet, is that the Guardian is not psychic, and not always correct. In fact, a lot of what he says to you, and your companions, is to challenge your "moral fiber," not necessarily state a truth about you.

[DalishRanger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
On another note, I recently gave Leliana a bit more of a chance, and she's not as bad a character as I made her out to be, I just really wish she'd shut up about the maker. And she is a bit of a racist, but she apologizes for it and promises to change, so that's a bit better. In short, I have decided that I may have judged her too harshly.

That's good to hear. But I don't blame you about her and the Maker. I find my tolerance for her ramblings on religion depends on what character I'm playing. My mage Warden is as religious as her (only not vocal about it), so I find it pleasant conversation while playing him. But if I'm playing... Say... My Dalish... I lose patience with it quite quickly and pick the politest answers that will get her to stop talking about it the fastest.

[Lenimph]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lenimph wrote...
Ahh ok then... I wasnt going to go looking through 20 pages of posts for an appology...  *chills*

Let me get this straight.

You want an apology, for someone not liking a character that you like?

Lady, you got problems.

What are you talking about? I wasn't expecting an apology which is why i wasnt going to look through 20 pages ... how did you even derive that

[DalishRanger]

Text is easy to misinterpret for anybody online, especially since you can't hear the tone or context of what someone means in most cases. It's probably a major reason why threads like these often end up in fights and misunderstandings. It's also why I usually just avoid or lurk on debate topics, because I'd rather not get involved in fandom wars or inadvertently upset somebody because I didn't articulate myself clearly enough. I have no problem agreeing to disagree or comparing contrasting interpretations, but I hate unintentionally upsetting people, more so than I worry about my feelings getting trampled on. I'm a hippie/sap/whatever like that.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 06 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[Lenimph]

Sabriana wrote...

I think it was very one-sided. Leliana loved Majorlaine (I mean, she really loved her, not only in a sexual way, although that is left wide open for interpretation), but Majorlaine manipulated Lelaina, and played her. That's the reason Majorlaine dies in my play-throughs now, I don't want her to screw with Leliana's head (or try to take her life) again. But she did definitely succeed in twisting Leliana somehow.
I would like to hear some input on that. How much influence did Majorlaine have? Apparently a lot, because even though Lel is with the Warden right then, she still lets Majorlaine's thoughts trouble her.

Yes Marjolaine definitely manipulated Leliana. I always kill Marjolaine not only for what she did to Leliana but also because she says Ferelden smells; I just cannot tolerate that.  Of course I think they're are lots of people out there who like to manipulate the ones they love, but it's all relative on what you would define as love or affection. But I really thought Marjolaine must have felt something for Leliana for following her steps and tracking her down, some kind of love turned spite sort of thing.  Leliana's actions where ... so heart-led and very typical of her and so since her explanations are kind of vague I think Marjolaine probably had to choose between her own well being or Leliana's.
 
I too would like to hear more imput on Marjolaine's and Leliana's relationship as well.

[DalishRanger]

Nah, I think Marjolaine only tracked Leliana down because she was afraid Leliana would turn in the damning evidence against her to the Orlesians. She's paranoid and manipulative. I very much doubt Marjolaine ever did anything in regards to Leliana other than for her own personal gain. Leliana was a useful tool. When that tool because too dangerous to use, Marjolaine tried to get rid of her. I don't think she was ever broken up about betraying Leliana. Merely worried what Leliana knew could be used against her.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 06 mars 2010 - 03:38 .

[Lenimph]

DalishRanger wrote...

Text is easy to misinterpret for anybody online, especially since you can't hear the tone or context of what someone means in most cases. It's probably a major reason why threads like these often end up in fights and misunderstandings. It's also why I usually just avoid or lurk on debate topics, because I'd rather not get involved in fandom wars or inadvertently upset somebody because I didn't articulate myself clearly enough. I have no problem agreeing to disagree or comparing contrasting interpretations, but I hate unintentionally upsetting people, more so than I worry about my feelings getting trampled on. I'm a hippie/sap/whatever like that.

A bit offtopic but I have to say this forum is nothing compared to the spurn I experienced at Model UN today.  Not even close 

 

[DalishRanger]

Oh, I know it's not that bad compared to others - it's actually one of the reasons I'm bothering to post here. I just mean that people jump to conclusions back and forth all the time - and I can see where Ahisgewaya interpreted your message as he did, and also why you're baffled he takes it that way.



It's very difficult to show your tone through writing alone.

[Lenimph]

DalishRanger wrote...

Oh, I know it's not that bad compared to others - it's actually one of the reasons I'm bothering to post here. I just mean that people jump to conclusions back and forth all the time - and I can see where Ahisgewaya interpreted your message as he did, and also why you're baffled he takes it that way.

It's very difficult to show your tone through writing alone.

He read it out of context with a sarcastic tone I guess?... just like i read the first post out of context

There should be a universal rule for addressing sarcasm online. I support Italics.

[DalishRanger]

Something like that. I think it's more that he finds it silly for people to get so defensive of a fictional character that they demand someone apologize for not having the same tastes. Which I don't think is what you meant when you mentioned not wanting to look for an apology. Point is, everyone misreads things online at least from time to time.



Italics could work, but they're also sometimes use to emphasize words for reasons other than sarcasm. That might just cause even more confusion. You see the conundrum? XD

[Lenimph]

DalishRanger wrote...

Something like that. I think it's more that he finds it silly for people to get so defensive of a fictional character that they demand someone apologize for not having the same tastes. Which I don't think is what you meant when you mentioned not wanting to look for an apology. Point is, everyone misreads things online at least from time to time.

Italics could work, but they're also sometimes use to emphasize words for reasons other than sarcasm. That might just cause even more confusion. You see the conundrum? XD

Meh I always underline words I think are important.

Anyway back to Leliana and Marjolaine. Did Leliana even have the power to rat out Marjolaine considering she was already a considered a criminal?  This is what makes me think Marjolaine's watching her was more then "kill her to shut her up"