766 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

I love you too, Maria.

By all means, let's go and bash some more NPCs.

[krylo]

The Real Bowser wrote...

God I love this game. Only Bioware creates video game characters deep enough that people will create huge debates about.

No, I am not trolling, I am quite serious. The characters in this game have a lot of life. None of them are black and white. The two rogues in this game are great examples, and I like both of them a lot.

The Anora discussion was better.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabriana wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

Says the witch lover, lol.
Come on, Knight. That's all you have to say?

Hey, Morrigan is actualy the most innocent of the bunch
She only kills templars who want to kill her. Maybe also chasinds.

I don't think there is much to say really. I think both Leliana and Zevran are a product of their societies. Perhaps Zevran more so than Leliana. 

On the issue of rape, I think neither qualify as rapists.
I never did interpret Zevran's comments as implying rape and that's the first time I read someone thinking it was such.
Leliana clearly never raped. She seduced. Rape is the act of forcing sex on someone who doesn't want it. Leliana makes people want her, so it's different.

But otherwise, there is really not that much to say. How we judge people ethically comes from setiments that are subjective. When I look at Zevran and Leliana, I don't get any nasty sensation. ESpecially not with Leliana, because she is a girl. Hey at least I am honest about it.

 

[Vuokseniska]

actually leliana acts like a 16 year old but apprently has leet bard skills.. she is just annoying with her overly cuteness. zeverna is annoying just because its character is trying to be something he isn't and that is some failed man/womaniser



but if you like them... good for you. it is a single player game afterall

[_R.C.Scarr]

Dont forget that Leliana helps you to fight loghain's soldiers when you first meet her but Zevran attempts to kill you and joins you in order to save his life. It makes it a easier to forgive someone's past when they tried to save your life and is in the process of turning her life around vs someone who tried to kill you and tells you he wants to continue his lifstyle.

[Jaulen]

krylo wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

I think it comes down to people who are rabidly anti-Zevran, or start equating his stories of sex with marks before killing them as rape, while they make no comparison with Leliana's actions.

It's like the OP of the "Justifying Zevran" thread just going after Zevran, with the "OMG, ZEVRAN IS A RAPIST!!!!" argument, that argument would be much more valid if they also looked at Leliana in the same light.
You can't comdemn one without condemning the other.

You can if you're doing it on the basis of rape.

Sex that lacks true consent (rape) + murder is worse than consensual sex + murder.

One is more of a 'betrayal' than the other, however, many people--myself included--find rape far more distasteful than murder, particularly when looking to hire people that are good at killing, and such, the rape + murder comes off as being the harder of the two to justify.

Not that I have any interest in justifying anything that either of them did... and I like Zevran more.  So.

See, I don't view his conquests that way, when he tells his stories it's more about them trying to seduce HIM, so that they can convince him to spare their lives (or like in the case of the mage, she's convinced him to go back to the corws to get the contract on her nullified, but then she slips falls dies and he later finds out she was going to betray him so....) or the other mark....again she tries to seduce him (maybe in hopes of the same thing happening as the mage, BUT he's 'learned his lesson' about pretty faces)

I still don't look at what he did as rape. Rape is being forced to have sex. The marks using sex toward Zevran would be akin to Leliana using sex to get to her marks. "Sex as a tool for something I want out of the other person" Leliana wants to kill her mark, sex = death, Zevran's marks are using sex to (hopefully) get out of death. In both cases it's the WOMAN using sex as a tool.

 

[Maria Caliban]

Sabriana wrote...

I love you too, Maria.
By all means, let's go and bash some more NPCs.

Why? I like the NPCs. I like Zevran.

I'd much rather call you on your BS than bash perfectly good characters.

[krylo]

Jaulen wrote...

krylo wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do any of them need justification? Both are good at their jobs and both jobs are a reality in the nations they live in.

From a Grey Warden's perspective, they don't need to justify anything. They simply need to put their abilities into good use.

I think it comes down to people who are rabidly anti-Zevran, or start equating his stories of sex with marks before killing them as rape, while they make no comparison with Leliana's actions.

It's like the OP of the "Justifying Zevran" thread just going after Zevran, with the "OMG, ZEVRAN IS A RAPIST!!!!" argument, that argument would be much more valid if they also looked at Leliana in the same light.
You can't comdemn one without condemning the other.

You can if you're doing it on the basis of rape.

Sex that lacks true consent (rape) + murder is worse than consensual sex + murder.

One is more of a 'betrayal' than the other, however, many people--myself included--find rape far more distasteful than murder, particularly when looking to hire people that are good at killing, and such, the rape + murder comes off as being the harder of the two to justify.

Not that I have any interest in justifying anything that either of them did... and I like Zevran more.  So.

See, I don't view his conquests that way, when he tells his stories it's more about them trying to seduce HIM, so that they can convince him to spare their lives (or like in the case of the mage, she's convinced him to go back to the corws to get the contract on her nullified, but then she slips falls dies and he later finds out she was going to betray him so....) or the other mark....again she tries to seduce him (maybe in hopes of the same thing happening as the mage, BUT he's 'learned his lesson' about pretty faces)

I still don't look at what he did as rape. Rape is being forced to have sex. The marks using sex toward Zevran would be akin to Leliana using sex to get to her marks. "Sex as a tool for something I want out of the other person" Leliana wants to kill her mark, sex = death, Zevran's marks are using sex to (hopefully) get out of death. In both cases it's the WOMAN using sex as a tool.

 

Tis a valid way of seeing it, yes.

So's the idea that they were under duress and were incapable of consent.

The point is, that if you view them as being under duress and incapable of consent it's quite possible to condemn Zevran for a crime that he may or may not have committed while finding the crimes that both he and Leliana committed in equal parts perfectly fine.

[brain_damage]

Next thread - "Justifying the two nugs from "The Pearl". Those b_tards didn't even have the courage to look at you in the eyes, as opposed to the cute nug from Orzammar!

[SurelyForth]

Jaulen wrote...

See, I don't view his conquests that way, when he tells his stories it's more about them trying to seduce HIM, so that they can convince him to spare their lives (or like in the case of the mage, she's convinced him to go back to the corws to get the contract on her nullified, but then she slips falls dies and he later finds out she was going to betray him so....) or the other mark....again she tries to seduce him (maybe in hopes of the same thing happening as the mage, BUT he's 'learned his lesson' about pretty faces)

I still don't look at what he did as rape. Rape is being forced to have sex. The marks using sex toward Zevran would be akin to Leliana using sex to get to her marks. "Sex as a tool for something I want out of the other person" Leliana wants to kill her mark, sex = death, Zevran's marks are using sex to (hopefully) get out of death. In both cases it's the WOMAN using sex as a tool.

 

Having sex to possibly save your life is absolutely NOT equal to having sex so that you can get close enough to kill someone.

[SurelyForth]

Double quote.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[SurelyForth]

Triple quote.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

It's the post so nice, you must say it thrice.

[Sabriana]

BS, Caliban? Why? Because it is aimed at Leliana? By all means, tell us why she is the be-all and tell-all, Perhaps we'll understand.

Pesonally, I think somebody who is so very giddy and happy telling my PC how she enjoyed the hunt, the manipulations, seductions, and tortures of men deserves a closer look.

[Jaulen]

It's still NOT rape.

Since in the case of rape, you have no chance to say no.....

While in Zevran's mark's cases, THEY are the ones using sex, by choice no less. It's not like he walks in the room and says, "F me and I might let you live! Don't F me and you die right here!" the marks KNOW they are going to die, but are hoping that using the oldest trick in the book (femininely wiles) they may get out of their fate. Why did they have to try to seduce him? Couldn't they just say "Okay! You're here to kill me, get on with it then." The marks CHOOSE to try to use sex as a tool.

While in Leliana's marck's cases it just "I'm going to f you and then kill you when you least expect it"
 

Modifié par Jaulen, 26 février 2010 - 09:00 .

[SurelyForth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's the post so nice, you must say it thrice.

And it wasn't even that nice.

I think that, if you have to turn things around to make Zevran a victim of his murderous ways, you're not doing your defense of him any favors. He was a killer, he admits it. Leliana was a killer, she admits it. They're both hot, and repentant, and we should just all be happy that there are a couple of hot, repentant people on our side who happen to be good with weapons, especially since our PC's are the sort to draw unwanted attention from others who are also good with weapons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabriana wrote...
Pesonally, I think somebody who is so very giddy and happy telling my PC how she enjoyed the hunt, the manipulations, seductions, and tortures of men deserves a closer look.

After she told me that, I definately wanted to take a much closer look

Ever wondered why most of Batman's girlfiends are criminals? Becuse he likes them that way.

Zevran too says that killing is an art and that the sensation of taking a person's life is satisfying.
I never tried it myself, but I don't doubt that it can be enjoyable from a certain mindset.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's the post so nice, you must say it thrice.

And it wasn't even that nice.

I think that, if you have to turn things around to make Zevran a victim of his murderous ways, you're not doing your defense of him any favors. He was a killer, he admits it. Leliana was a killer, she admits it. They're both hot, and repentant, and we should just all be happy that there are a couple of hot, repentant people on our side who happen to be good with weapons, especially since our PC's are the sort to draw unwanted attention from others who are also good with weapons.

Hah, I like this, SurelyForth!  If it weren't so long, I'd use it as a sig!

[zaim298]

i dont think u get the point, we don't justify any of the characters, or if one is better than the other... at the same time we have our preferences and you have yours...pretty much subjective topic... it is like you're asking 'why people don't like pancake coz i dont like waffles...' where there is no right or wrong answers, do we need to justify our likings, taste, preferences?

[SuperMaoriFulla]

Zevran drew the short end of the stick by being born an elf, and doubly so for being raised a flat-ear. He was always going to face difficulties in life by dint of being born a second class citizen that treats elves with equal parts suspicion and contempt.



Leliana has also been influenced by the Machiavellian intrigue and lethal brinkmanship of the aristocracy within the Orlesian system. Orlais has culture, wealth and civilization but Val Royeaux is no less dangerous for the unwary than an Alienage. Tread carefully in Val Royeaux lest you wind up inconveniently dead, or worse.

[krylo]

SurelyForth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's the post so nice, you must say it thrice.

And it wasn't even that nice.

I think that, if you have to turn things around to make Zevran a victim of his murderous ways, you're not doing your defense of him any favors. He was a killer, he admits it. Leliana was a killer, she admits it. They're both hot, and repentant, and we should just all be happy that there are a couple of hot, repentant people on our side who happen to be good with weapons, especially since our PC's are the sort to draw unwanted attention from others who are also good with weapons.

I didn't think Leliana was that hot, or even really attractive, as she appeared in the game.

As she appeared in the trailers she was, and the woman they SUPPOSEDLY modelled her after was pretty amazingly stunning, but Leliana has this weird forehead thing going on that's just ugh everytime she talks...

[Jaulen]

I just wonder, how is Leliana repentant?



What I get from the whole Leliana and Marjolaine encounter is this: 1) Leliana enjoys the game of getting to her mark 2) She enjoys killing 3) She is afraid of turning into Marjolaine.....



And what is sho so afraid about the whole 'turning into marjolaine' idea? Is it the game? The seduction? The Killing?



No, it's the "Will I become so cold that I turn on someone who loves/worships me?"

[Maria Caliban]

Sabriana wrote...

BS, Caliban? Why? Because it is aimed at Leliana?

Because you're a hypocritical douchebag.

Someone randomly attacks a character you like. You think it's wrong, therefore, you randomly attack a different character. It’s like I’m back in elementary school:
“Sabriana, why did you steal Tom’s pencil?”
“Because Jacob stole mine!!!!”

By all means, tell us why she is the be-all and tell-all, Perhaps we'll understand.

She is neither the be-all or tell-all. That's rather obvious. she's either insane or a liar. She's admits that she keeps things from you. She doesn't feel bad about killing people, only being betrayed by someone she loved.

As characters go, she'd very flawed. She's not even my favorite character, but I'm sure your head is buried so far up your backside you won't even be able to understand that I'm fine with people criticizing or questioning the character.

What I’m not fine with is YOU.

[Sabriana]

Hey, Knight, maybe that's why my girls rather keep company with Morrigan than with Leliana.

Seriously, why is it so acceptable that a woman prefers women, than a man who also prefers women, but is perfectly willing to give his love to either.

Personally, Leliana's speech is far more off-putting than Zevran's.

I really wish to find out why the woman who chose her life - style of killing, torture, and seduction is so much more acceptable than the man who never considered torture.

People seem to forget that Leliana had two years in the chantry to consider her ways. Zevran just started when he met the PC.

[Monica21]

Jaulen wrote...

It's still NOT rape.

Since in the case of rape, you have no chance to say no.....

While in Zevran's mark's cases, THEY are the ones using sex, by choice no less. It's not like he walks in the room and says, "F me and I might let you live! Don't F me and you die right here!" the marks KNOW they are going to die, but are hoping that using the oldest trick in the book (femininely wiles) they may get out of their fate. Why did they have to try to seduce him? Couldn't they just say "Okay! You're here to kill me, get on with it then." The marks CHOOSE to try to use sex as a tool.

While in Leliana's marck's cases it just "I'm going to f you and then kill you when you least expect it"
 

While it's not rape, your attempt to whitewash Zevran is painful. And putting words like "choose" in capital letters doesn't make them true. Yes, they had sex with him. The problem that you keep avoiding is that the only reason they did it was to either get him to change his mind or to escape and/or kill him. Was it really their choice or was it the only thing they could think of to buy time? I'm going with the latter, but either way it's questionable at best.