766 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

krylo wrote...


Really?

All I can get Wrex to say is "Shepard."

Yes, but if you think about Alistair in sexy underwear while talking to him, he says so in a rather suggestive, seductive way.
Or you just have to vomit.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

krylo wrote...

Zevran never had a choice.  It was kill or be killed.  Eat or be eaten.  Straight from the age of seven.  He never knew anything else, and one would be hard pressed INDEED to find a seven year old capable of even grasping the idea of dying for his ideals, much less being brave enough to do so.  Everything Zevran did was under pain of death.  He was never fully responsible for his actions, anymore than a man who kills a burglar in self defense is guilty of murder.

And that makes him an interesting character.

Leliana, on the other hand was never forced to kill.  She killed because she loved Marjolaine and because she liked it.  She tortured people, with no threat to herself.  She seduced and murdered and spied, never under any duress.  Always with a calm thinking mind.  She is fully responsible for everything she did.

And that makes her an interesting character.

OMG. You can like both! It's not a stupid competition!

Hey now, don't drag me into your cat fight.  I'm just observing and having fun on the sidelines here.  I'm not taking sides.

I'm actively accusing Zev of rape in the other thread!

Turn your claws back toward sabrianna!

...And somebody rip a damn undergarment already.

[Zy-El]

It's all relative.



If you look at the party as a whole, we're all homicidal manics - the GW being the worst of the bunch. Lying, cheating, stealing, out-right murdering anybody and anything that gets in the way of our cause. Even resorting to blood magic even though we're more than willing to take gold for hunting down blood mages.



I like both Zev and Lel though I've yet to start a romance with Zev. Although I would have expected him to be a little more grateful after being allowed to join my party as opposed to being left as wolf-kibble by the side of the road. At least Leliana was willing to risk her hide to save mine. First impressions go a long way.



Lel is scripted with more charm, however. Giggles when you tell her to pick a lock. She serenades the party with a song. She retains that whimsical lilt in her voice in the words she says. Yes, I'm in love!

[sami jo]

Sabriana wrote...

The one thing that this thread is doing is trying to get an answer to why the female hunter and killer, who is also very much into her own gender is viewed with such a benign eye, than the male hunter who does not abhor intimate relations with his own gender.
I'm sick and tired of Leliana getting all the breaks, even though she so enjoyed hunting, torturing and killing as opposed to Zevran who does have a lot of regrets, and never would resort to torture.

She gets the breaks for precisely the reasons you have articulated so well elsewhere: she plays all sweet and nice, she is a woman, many are more comfortable with a lesbian/bi woman than a gay/bi man, and Zev seems to be more difficult to get to know.  I say seems because the PC doesn't get the dirt on Lel any faster than they do with Zev, but she is better at making it seem as if s/he is.  The context in which the PC meets them probably also plays a part.  It was obvious to me that I was walking into an ambush, but not everyone reads it that way.  They have both done horrible things.  Lel leaves because she is in fear of her life, then feels guilty.  Zev leaves because he feels worthless and guilty.  He has to overcome far more, but Lel was pretty clearly manipulated by Marjolane.  Lel's character as intended by the writers doesn't seem morally superior to Zev to me (with the ambush love glitch, she is plenty creepy, but that wasn't the writers' intention). 

As a Zev fan, I feel your pain, and I weary of the homophobic comments aimed his way.  I suspect that many are too entranced by the warm fuzzy bunny stuff Lel spews to really listen to some of her more disturbing comments. 

[ejoslin]

krylo wrote...

...And somebody rip a damn undergarment already.

I gave you a  already.  Don't be so damn greedy!

[Maria Caliban]

krylo wrote...
Hey now, don't drag me into your cat fight.  I'm just observing and having fun on the sidelines here.  I'm not taking sides.

You don't need to take sides.

I'm actively accusing Zev of rape in the other thread!

I don't consider him a rapist. Seriously, though, are you the reason this thread started?

...And somebody rip a damn undergarment already.

Sure. Hold still, I’ll try not to yank out any of your short hairs while I’m at it.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm actively accusing Zev of rape in the other thread!

I don't consider him a rapist. Seriously, though, are you the reason this thread started?

I don't know.  Maybe?  I don't read the zev love thread closely enough to know whether the idea for that thread came about before or after I brought up the sketchy consent issues.

Sure. Hold still, I’ll try not to yank out any of your short hairs while I’m at it.

I don't mind.

I like it rough.

[Monica21]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I don't consider him a rapist. Seriously, though, are you the reason this thread started?

Does it matter? Seriously, I think all this thread needs are some tequila shots before a full brawl breaks out.

Sure. Hold still, I’ll try not to yank out any of your short hairs while I’m at it.

Is krylo a dude or a chick? Because chicks don't have short hairs, at least societal norms dictate that they shouldn't.

[Sabriana]

No. The reason of this thread is more than that. I've read plenty of posts that make Leliana out as the sweet, lovable, adorable woman. I want to know why her past is so easily forgiven. She outright lies to the PC. She enjoyed her past.

She did it all to please a woman she loved.

She escaped persecution from the Orlesian law. She had two years to go into herself. She loves women, and she makes no pretense about it. But all is forgiven.

Why? She is a murderer. She is a seducer, She is a manipulator. She enjoyed he hunt and the kill. If not for Majorlaine's betrayal, she would most likely be doing the same thing. Gladly, and out of her own choice

Edited for formatting. Really.

Modifié par Sabriana, 26 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

No. The reason of this thread is more than that. I've read plenty of posts that make Leliana out as the sweet, lovable, adorable woman. I want to know why her past is so easily forgiven. She outright lies to the PC. She enjoyed her past. She did it all to please a woman she loved.
She escaped persecution from the Orlesian law. She had two years to go into herself. She loves women, and she makes no pretense about it. But all is forgiven.
Why? She is a murderer. She is a seducer, She is a manipulator. She enjoyed he hunt and the kill. If not for Majorlaine's betrayal, she would most likely be doing the same thing. Gladly, and out of her own choic.
w
h

Yep, she's awesome.

[krylo]

Monica21 wrote...

Is krylo a dude or a chick? Because chicks don't have short hairs, at least societal norms dictate that they shouldn't.

I'm a transgendered platypus.

[Sabriana]

I_B you should know that it would never apply to you.

I am glad to see you.

[sami jo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'll explain it to you. Slowly. With small words.

You said that 'my true colors' were coming through and ‘people are getting on to you.’ I pointed out that as I’ve posted for some time now. As such, many already have a good grasp of my personality.

And I agree, you being wrong has nothing to do with how long you’ve been in the community. What makes you wrong is that you started a troll thread for no other reason than that someone, somewhere insulted the painted elf.

If someone insults Dragon Age and it makes you angry, you don’t start pissy threads on the ME 2 forum.

If someone insults BioWare and it makes you angry, you don’t start pissy threads on the Bethesda forum.

If someone insults Zevran and it makes you angry, you don't stary pissy thread about Leliana.

This is a simple concept.

Actually, I think the point was that someone starts a thread to rehash how horrible Zevran is every other day because he is "the gay killer who uses sex" or some variation on that argument, but many of those same people will defend Lelianna to the hilt.  I don't see you hopping into those threads to rip the OP a new orifice.  The point is that anyone who finds Zevran morally reprehensible and unredeemable should really feel the same about Lelianna. 

And your above analogy is ridiculous, seeing as this would be the appropriate place to start this thread.

[Maria Caliban]

krylo wrote...

I don't know.  Maybe?  I don't read the zev love thread closely enough to know whether the idea for that thread came about before or after I brought up the sketchy consent issues.

Only Sabrina knows.

I don't mind.

I like it rough.

It's nice not to have to hold back.

[Monica21]

krylo wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Is krylo a dude or a chick? Because chicks don't have short hairs, at least societal norms dictate that they shouldn't.

I'm a transgendered platypus.

People should make more jokes about your duck bill then.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabriana wrote...
She escaped persecution from the Orlesian law. She had two years to go into herself. She loves women, and she makes no pretense about it. But all is forgiven.

Why? She is a murderer. She is a seducer, She is a manipulator. She enjoyed he hunt and the kill. If not for Majorlaine's betrayal, she would most likely be doing the same thing. Gladly, and out of her own choice

Edited for formatting. Really.

The way I would answer is this:
- She is now using her abilities to fight the blight
- She is pretty and cute.
- She has talent. A genius at her work.

In addition, her victims were probably Orlesian nobles, so they had it coming.

But that's just me. SOme people may not want to forgive her. Others may not know what to forgive in the first place.  

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The way I would answer is this:
- She is now using her abilities to fight the blight
- She is pretty and cute.
- She has talent. A genius at her work.

In addition, her victims were probably Orlesian nobles, so they had it coming.

But that's just me. SOme people may not want to forgive her. Others may not know what to forgive in the first place.

Given how much you like Loghain, I shouldn't be surprised by that, yet it's never occurred to me. I do like the reasoning though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The way I would answer is this:
- She is now using her abilities to fight the blight
- She is pretty and cute.
- She has talent. A genius at her work.

In addition, her victims were probably Orlesian nobles, so they had it coming.

But that's just me. SOme people may not want to forgive her. Others may not know what to forgive in the first place.

Given how much you like Loghain, I shouldn't be surprised by that, yet it's never occurred to me. I do like the reasoning though.

Well I didn't mean it that way precisely lol.

What I meant is that her victims are politicians who have no qualms hiring bards to eliminate their rivals. Leliana wasn't a street thug who seduces random men and then kill them.

Bards are an integral part of Orlesian political life, encouraged and developped by the nobility. So most of their nobles have it coming.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's nice not to have to hold back.

I'd be disappointed if you did.

Fo' seriouses though, I don't think I'm the fault of this.  I'm just poking academic fun in both threads, and have made it pretty clear I actually like Zev more than Lel, so.

And, I don't think Zev thinks he raped anyone, and I'm aware it's a very large gray area given the culture, and blah blah blah, but it's an argument that has merit and I'll argue it until the merit is accepted or I get hungry/bored/whatever and waddle off to coddle my eggs, clean my venom sacs, and hunt some fish.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[Maria Caliban]

sami jo wrote...

Actually, I think the point was that someone starts a thread to rehash how horrible Zevran is every other day because he is "the gay killer who uses sex" or some variation on that argument, but many of those same people will defend Lelianna to the hilt.

And they're idiots. Why is the OP spreading the same nonsense? It's not a war. Zevran and Leliana would be the first to point out that neither of them are perfect.

I don't see you hopping into those threads to rip the OP a new orifice.

I've ripped so many new orifices over Zevran I could star in a tentacle porn. I used to have huge fights with DarthSion whenever he started his 'If he hits on me, I should be able to bash his skull in' crap. Heck, I managed to get him tempbanned about five times.

The point is that anyone who finds Zevran morally reprehensible and unredeemable should really feel the same about Lelianna.

Indeed. And someone who thinks Zevran is redeemable would likely think the same of Leliana.

And your above analogy is ridiculous, seeing as this would be the appropriate place to start this thread.

No, there is no appropriate place to start this thread. This thread exists only because the OP wants to troll.

[krylo]

imported_beer wrote...

This topic messes with my mind. I like Zevran AND Leliana. It is..torment to have to justify either.

In the case of Leliana, I have always wondered though if she really means her "repentance". As a bard, has she become so good at playing roles that the chantry sister is just one of the many masks she donned. Is she a genuinely repentant sinner, or was she faking it all? That to me adds to her depth. Leliana was definitely my female BFF. I liked the fact that she managed girly without incompetence.

You should look up the idea of transcending the mask.

It's possible that she started faking but wore that mask for so long that even she began to believe it.  Much like her views on the maker--the Guardian says that she made up said views for attention, and he can apparently read minds or some crazy crap, but even then she clings to the belief.  Perhaps she has gotten so good at wearing masks that she fools even herself?

If that is the case who is to say what is true?

[AndreaDraco]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I've ripped so many new orifices over Zevran I could star in a tentacle porn.

... ... ...

Wonderful!

I used to have huge fights with DarthSion whenever he started his 'If he hits on me, I should be able to bash his skull in' crap. Heck, I managed to get him tempbanned about five times.

Agh. I remember him.

Indeed. And someone who thinks Zevran is redeemable would likely think the same of Leliana.

I may be wrong, but... I guess everyone knows that Leliana is redeemable just as Zevran. I reckon Sabriana was only trying to point out that Leliana - apparently for sexist reasons - doesn't get the same hatred Zevran gets.

[Sabriana]

@ Caliban
No, it's not a war. You are the one turning it into one. I genuinely want to know why Leliana it so easily forgiven for the same 'crimes' that another NPC is not.

You are turning it into a Zevran vs Leliane thing. You are derailing my thread. If you want a Zevran vs Leliana discussion open your own. You don't seem to have problems with that.

I am contending that she is a killer. She had two years to remove herself from that life. Is she all removed? Not in my experience as a player.

Edited because some people are way to fast.

Modifié par Sabriana, 26 février 2010 - 10:37 .